Mature games topic moved to Black Pudding

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Ashtagon
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Re: Mature games topic moved to Black Pudding

Post by Ashtagon » Fri May 27, 2016 11:23 am

Honestly, even if another forum member had posted about that particular product, I think I still would have erred on the side of locking the topic.

Although that product is presented in the format of a game, that doesn't necessarily mean it actually is a game (tangentially relevant; a picture of a pipe might not be an actual pipe, but a game of something inherently political is still a political statement). Key in this is that the author of that product himself said it was intended more as a thought provoking piece ("the story that must be told") and not something intended to be played for fun. Indeed, he specifically said he was worried that some day someone might actually choose to play it for fun. It was a political statement wrapped in the trappings of a game, not a game that was intended to be played as a game.

And real-world politics is simply off-topic here.

btw, in Wraith, a player plays both a victim and an oppressor. One of each player's characters is specifically intended to be a tormentor for another of the players' 'victim' characters. That makes the product equal parts #2 and #3 in your list of examples. But even if it was purely #3, it is still discussion of an inherently political product, which leaves it off-topic regardless.
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Re: Mature games topic moved to Black Pudding

Post by Big Mac » Fri May 27, 2016 12:06 pm

Sturm: Please can we dispense with the endless analogies.

What we are talking about here is moderator policy. And the subject is who has the right to set it and what that policy should be.

Ashtagon owns this forum and she sets moderator policy and the moderators interpret implement that policy. That's the bottom line of this discussion. It's not negotiable.

Ashtagon has made it clear, in the past and now, that she does not want certain types of discussions here. That's totally normal for forums, although every forum has it's own idea of what's acceptable and non-acceptable.To say that moderation is the same as branding someone a criminal is a logical fallacy.

Ashtagon pays for this forum and she is the one that any legal action would be taken against, if anyone ever complained about The Piazza (and someone - a former forum member - has tried to get a legal complaint launched against The Piazza in the past). She has every right to set the tone and limits of her own forum.

And from the other end of things, she wants to make this forum as open and friendly to as many people as possible. Most of us came here from the Wizards COMmunity Boards (aka Gleemax) and I remember some pretty aggressive Edition Wars, people telling me that my choice of setting (Spelljammer) was stupid and that I should throw my books away and embrace their superior campaign setting. The tone that Ashtagon has set has got rid of a large amount of the bad-wrong-fun arguments that we had before we got here. It has enabled me to connect up with fans of settings that I never felt able to discuss before 2008. It has really helped improve my gaming experience and it has allowed me to make friends with people I probably never would have met, who do really awesome stuff for campaign settings and rules that I don't use. (I think that Thorf is the big person here. I have crossover interests with some of the Mystara fans I know, but I just don't think I'd have ever met Thorf and now I can't think of not knowing Thorf.)

All that stuff has happened, because Ashtagon built The Piazza and pushed for a tone that encouraged people who have different gaming interests to come together and have "nice" conversations with each other.

We have very few problems on The Piazza, but those that we do almost always consist of people who want to have an argument with someone else (not necessarily someone else) and are resistant to being told to stop upsetting other people.

You do not agree with my moderation of Willpell's topic. That's fine. You chose to make this into a public discussion (rather than to talk to Ashtagon privately). That's OK, I suppose, although it has led to Willpell arguing with the moderators in this topic and publically trying to assert his "right" to ignore any forum policies that Ashtagon wants to implement.

But what you have to accept, and what every other forum member has to accept, is that all forums have policies implemented by a moderator team. Like them or not like them, you have to accept them. Because if people do not accept the forum policies and if they keep pushing to undermine those policies it ends up with people getting banned.

You might like some policies. And you might dislike other policies. And you might disagree with certain policies. That's fine. So long as you follow the policies, you can continue to post within those policies. (And as has been pointed out, there are other places where you can talk about other things.)

I locked those topics because Willpell was pushing against the moderator policy, which is not acceptable. It is something that is likely to get more people complaining to the moderator team and it is something that could get him banned.

So I nipped that topic in the bud and sent Willpell a private message asking him to read my messages and to stop trying to post content (at The Piazza) that is deemed to be unacceptable here.

I am trying - as Ashtagon is trying - to get Willpell to accept that he has to comply with Ashtagon's forum policy - so that he does not get banned.

We do not need to talk about the holocaust or rape in order to have fun and/or productive conversations about D&D. You may not disagree with that, but your question has been addressed and there is nothing else to say apart from the decision to not allow that discussion here stands.

Please stop pushing this topic. Please stop encouraging Willpell to continue fighting against moderation policy. He has to accept it. He doesn't need to like it, but he has to accept it.
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Re: Mature games topic moved to Black Pudding

Post by Sturm » Fri May 27, 2016 1:03 pm

@Ashtagon
Regardless of what the author said later, the product was produced and sold as a game resource, so its discussion should be allowed in a rpg forum, provided a thread doesn't derail too much into politics (that I don't think it's the correct category here. Taking a stance against genocide it's not a political statement, it's basic humanitarian duty for any sane minded person).
Anyway it's not really necessary for me to discuss Wraith or other WoD games here, as I think there are not many fans of such settings in this forum.
Please note that from a quick search on the internet it seems to me the product has been mentioned and discussed in a lot of sites and forum and most people do not seem to have the problems you apparently have with it. The general idea is that it could be a useful look into a dark page of european history.

Anyway if you think it's so terrible to have a discussion on it on The Piazza you can obviously decide to lock and trash this topic too. Certainly you do not need my permission to do that, but if you prefer to have the agreement of the OP, you have it.

If I may ask you one final question (reply in PM if you prefer, but I think it could be of general interest):
I already said I agree on the necessity of excluding politics, sex and religions from discussions, as similar topics could too easily become flame wars. Yet such themes may appear in-topic when discussing rpg "fluff". Do you have a general guideline on this or mods will decide on a case per case basis?
Thanks.
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Re: Mature games topic moved to Black Pudding

Post by Ashtagon » Fri May 27, 2016 1:08 pm

The author said those things I referred to in his preface/introduction to the book itself, not later post-publication of the book.
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Re: Mature games topic moved to Black Pudding

Post by Sturm » Fri May 27, 2016 1:22 pm

@Big Mac
I did not encourage willpell to fight moderation policy! You cannot say that. I did the opposite above:
Absolute free speech and off-topic threads could only lead to a forum being swamped by spammers, troll and flame wars. It's understandable Ashtagon will not want this. Almost all users here have found a way to post freely on many topics and still abide to forum guidelines. It's not really difficult to do so, if you are willing to do it.
I did not post privately (even if I replied to a PM from Ashtagon) because I think this discussion should have been of general interest to determine and know what are the guidelines on rpg content which could have mature themes or whatever you want to call them.
I did not post to "defend" or "encourage" willpell but rather to defend a valid rpg product which was, in my opinion, unfairly deemed inappropriate for the forum.
I acknowledge the topic is not of general interest here as I do not see much partecipation from other users.
I always tried my best to respect the forum policies and will continue to do so.
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Re: Mature games topic moved to Black Pudding

Post by Sturm » Fri May 27, 2016 1:33 pm

Ashtagon wrote:The author said those things I referred to in his preface/introduction to the book itself, not later post-publication of the book.
Ok, I read it a lot of time ago and I took another look yesterday, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
If you mean the phrase on page 17 which says "The words of this book are not intended to be fun to read" that doesn't mean you can't use it in a game. It will be a tragic, sad game and may not be for everyone, but I still don't see why that's different from a tragic movie and why discussion of it should be prohibited on the Piazza.
Anyway I believe I made my point clear and you made your point clear, I've already wrote you can go ahead locking and trashing this topic, if it so bothers you.
I am fully aware you do not need my permission to do so or not, but from what's worth...
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