Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

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Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Big Mac » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:35 pm

It's been pointed out to me that we have Elsir Vale topics in the Other Worlds forum, and that they should move over to the Nentir Vale forum (because Elsir Vale has been retconned into Nentir Vale's past).

I'm going to do a search, when I can, but if any other moderators have the time, please feel free to start moving topics. (If any non-moderators see any topics that get missed, please use the report post forum, and explain the situation in the text block. Thanks in advance.)

EDIT: Elsir Vale topics at The Piazza. (I would say that "Greyhawk's Elsir Vale" should stay in the Greyhawk forum, but we could give it a redirect in the Nentir Vale forum.

I'll see if I can move the other three topics later. (The links sticky is going to be the trickiest, as there is a master sticky pointed at it. The stuff about using the Other Worlds forum also needs to change.)
Last edited by Big Mac on Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Havard » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:39 pm

I disagree with this decision.

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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Big Mac » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:43 pm

Havard wrote:I disagree with this decision.
Why? It's an official retcon. Why disagree with an official retcon?

I'll hold off for now.
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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Tim Baker » Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:21 am

I've long considered Elsir Vale to be part of the same world as Nentir Vale. I'm interested to learn why the thread move might not be a good idea from Havard.
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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Dragonhelm » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:22 am

Havard wrote:I disagree with this decision.

-Havard
Perhaps we should reference the product history of Red Hand of Doom. Note that Shannon Applecline wrote the history and he's considered to be quite the authority on D&D history.

Specifically, this paragraph:
Introducing the Elsir Vale. The Elsir Vale was a large and new locale that included several towns and the nearby wilderness. It became even more notable when Wizards returned to the setting in their "Scales of War" adventure path, which ran from Dungeon #156 (July 2008) to Dungeon #175 (February 2010). The new story for 4E was set 10 years after Red Hand of Doom.

When reintroducing the setting for Scales of War, Wizards described it like this:

"Bastions of civilization populate a dark, menacing world — islands of order and reason exist in a land otherwise overrun by dark cults, vile monsters, creatures from the dark edges of the imagination, and worse."

The Scales of War adventure path then went on to visit areas like the Astral Sea, the Elemental Chaos, and the Shadowfell, matching the cosmology of D&D 4E (2008-2012). When players combined the new description of the Elsir Vale, its cosmology, and perhaps even the fact that's it was a Vale, they came to the conclusion that the Elsir Vale was part of the same Points of Light world that also contained 4E's Nentir Vale.

Wizards never confirmed this, and you can't actually find Elsir Vale on the (very large scale) Points of Light map found in Conquest of Nerath (2011). However, "Garaitha's Anvil" in Dungeon #167 (June 2009) contained a reference to an adventure locale being "a rebuilt ruin of Nerath", which is strongly suggestive that the connection is genuine. If so, Red Hand of Doom marked the first appearance of the default setting for 4E, two years before that edition of the game appeared!
Personally, this feels more like an adventure locale that can be put into any number of worlds.
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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Zeromaru X » Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:16 pm

There is also another adventure, "Alliance at Nefelus" (Dungeon Magazine 165), that states the Elsir Vale lies somewhere of the south to the Nentir Vale. However, we have to take into account that the Nentir Vale was also created to be put in any world.

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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Havard » Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:04 pm

Sorry, I guess I should have explained why I feel this is not such a good idea.
Zeromaru X wrote: However, we have to take into account that the Nentir Vale was also created to be put in any world.
Basically this is my point. The Red Hand of Doom and the Elsir Vale are part of the Nentir Vale, but they are not exclusively a part of that setting.

The Nentir Vale / Nerath setting incorporated alot of modules and adventure locales from previous editions such as the Keep on the Borderlands, the Caves of Chaos, the Isle of Dread (in the Feywild), the Tomb of Horrors and many more. I don't really see the Elsir Vale any more connected to the Nentir Vale than those others.

I think the Elsir Vale can be discussed within the context of the Nentir Vale, but should we not also be able to discuss this locale as its own separate mini setting?

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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Big Mac » Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:37 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:There is also another adventure, "Alliance at Nefelus" (Dungeon Magazine 165), that states the Elsir Vale lies somewhere of the south to the Nentir Vale. However, we have to take into account that the Nentir Vale was also created to be put in any world.
Could you give me the exact quote from the adventure, please, Zeromaru, so we can see the exact context of that. :)
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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Zeromaru X » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:59 pm

Dungeon 165, p.35, during the Frost Giants encounter:

"Frost Giant Enclave: The temporary home of the frost giant clan that has allied with Chillreaver, the frost giants here are led by Nara of the Wastes, a sacred ice shaper second in power only to the jarl of her tribe. Chillreaver has long been an ally of these frost giants when they both lived in the frozen lands north of the Winterbole Forest, beyond Nentir Vale."

Also, for the sake of completeness, there is the line of "Garaitha's Anvil" (Dun 167) about Nerath. P. 41, in the "Trouble in the Mountains" section:

"The watchtower of Thiradith is a rebuilt ruin of Nerath, and it has watched over the empty northern frontier for a generation."

It seems to indicate that Thiradith was located in the mountains of the northern frontier of Nerath, meaning someplace between Sarthel, the Barony of Therund, and the Trollhaunt Barrens in the official map.
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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Big Mac » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:11 pm

Havard wrote:Sorry, I guess I should have explained why I feel this is not such a good idea.
Zeromaru X wrote: However, we have to take into account that the Nentir Vale was also created to be put in any world.
Basically this is my point. The Red Hand of Doom and the Elsir Vale are part of the Nentir Vale, but they are not exclusively a part of that setting.
Ah, I see.

This is kind of on the same level of Ghostwalk supposedly being something that can exist in Forgotten Realms or Eberron...as well as supposedly being it's own setting.

Isn't there the same sort of thing with Thunder Rift, with fans assuming it is part of Mystara, but it officially being published as a standalone thing?

We are only really talking of three topics with an "Elsir Vale" tag at the moment:
  • Incorporating Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale - This would clearly stay in the Nentir Vale forum in any case, as Knightfall created a topic about using Elsir Vale in Nentir Vale and that makes it a Nentir Vale topic. (But if we ever get a Elsir Vale forum/subforum* I would probably make a topic redirct at that point.)
  • Greyhawk's Elsir Vale - This would clearly stay in the Greyhawk forum in any case, as I created a topic about using Elsir Vale in Greyhawk and that makes it a Greyhawk topic. (But if we ever get a Elsir Vale forum/subforum* I would probably make a topic redirct at that point.)
  • Other Elsir Vale Websites (& Free Downloads) - This is my pre-made forum/subforum links sticky. This was built to wait for an Elsir Vale forum/subforum and left in the Other Worlds forum, with the master sticky pointed at it.
I started this topic, because we have public discussion, both in my "links sticky" and in Knightfall's topic, about moving Elsir Vale topics over to the Nentir Vale forum. (Asking for things to be moved....or not moved...is forum business, rather than actual discussion about the original topics of either of those topics.)

If we widen the net and do a search for topics containing "Red Hand of Doom" in the title, we get a few more hits: As of now, we technically don't have a single topic about using Elsir Vale as it's own campaign setting. So, it's not so much that we have not got to the threshold of Elsir Vale possibly earning it's own forum or subforum. We just have not started yet (unless there are topics that I've not found in either of those two searches).

So the only thing that would move...would be my "Other Elsir Vale Websites (& Free Downloads)" topic (which would become a second sticky in the Nentir Vale forum, if it was moved)
Havard wrote:The Nentir Vale / Nerath setting incorporated alot of modules and adventure locales from previous editions such as the Keep on the Borderlands, the Caves of Chaos, the Isle of Dread (in the Feywild), the Tomb of Horrors and many more. I don't really see the Elsir Vale any more connected to the Nentir Vale than those others.

I think the Elsir Vale can be discussed within the context of the Nentir Vale, but should we not also be able to discuss this locale as its own separate mini setting?
Well I suppose so. There is no badwrongfun at The Piazza, so nobody should be told they can't discuss Elsir Vale without Nentir Vale. :)

Given that nobody seems to want to do that yet, and there would be a little bit of fiddly work (not a massive amount, but I'm busy) to undock my links sticky, I'm inclined to keep this on hold until we actually have some Elsir Vale topics to talk about moving.

Once we have some actual Elsir Vale topics, we can look at them and see if "Elsir Vale before the Points of Light stuff" is actually any different to "Elsir Vale without the Points of Light" stuff.

I suspect that someone who wanted to use Elsir Vale could look through the Nentir Vale canon, and check the historical situation, to get additional material to expand their game, without needing to buy into the "Points of Light" future. But, lets see if we can find an actual Elsir Vale fan, so we can see what they want to do with their setting! :P
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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Big Mac » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:21 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:Dungeon 165, p.35, during the Frost Giants encounter:

"Frost Giant Enclave: The temporary home of the frost giant clan that has allied with Chillreaver, the frost giants here are led by Nara of the Wastes, a sacred ice shaper second in power only to the jarl of her tribe. Chillreaver has long been an ally of these frost giants when they both lived in the frozen lands north of the Winterbole Forest, beyond Nentir Vale."

Also, for the sake of completeness, there is the line of "Garaitha's Anvil" (Dun 167) about Nerath. P. 41, in the "Trouble in the Mountains" section:

"The watchtower of Thiradith is a rebuilt ruin of Nerath, and it has watched over the empty northern frontier for a generation."

It seems to indicate that Thiradith was located in the mountains of the northern frontier of Nerath, meaning someplace between Sarthel, the Barony of Therund, and the Trollhaunt Barrens in the official map.
Thanks for those quotes.

I'm afraid I don't recognise any of those locations as being associated with Elsir Vale. :? (I really wish my Nentir Vale fu and Elsir Vale fu was better, so I could go quote the appropriate sources myself and demonstrate the link.)

I know that the Nerath stuff was built up for the Conquest of Nerath board game (which is the map you linked to). From what I understand of what other people have told me, Elsir Vale would be off the side of the Conquest of Nerath map. (I've seen a couple of fan-maps that connect the two maps in the past, but I'm specifically looking for canon links, rather than fanon created to support them...for the purpose of this "forum business" discussion.)

Is "Thiradith" our location that is supposed to be mentioned in both Elsir Vale canon and Nentir Vale canon?
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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Big Mac » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:25 pm

Dragonhelm wrote:
Havard wrote:I disagree with this decision.
Perhaps we should reference the product history of Red Hand of Doom. Note that Shannon Applecline wrote the history and he's considered to be quite the authority on D&D history.
Maybe we should invite Shannon Applecline to The Piazza. :)
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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Havard » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:15 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Havard wrote:Sorry, I guess I should have explained why I feel this is not such a good idea.
Zeromaru X wrote: However, we have to take into account that the Nentir Vale was also created to be put in any world.
Basically this is my point. The Red Hand of Doom and the Elsir Vale are part of the Nentir Vale, but they are not exclusively a part of that setting.
Ah, I see.

This is kind of on the same level of Ghostwalk supposedly being something that can exist in Forgotten Realms or Eberron...as well as supposedly being it's own setting.

Isn't there the same sort of thing with Thunder Rift, with fans assuming it is part of Mystara, but it officially being published as a standalone thing?

Not going to get into Thunder Rift here, but I would say this is a different case than any of these because:

1. Red Hand of Doom was created before the Nentir Vale/4E
2. There are several connections between the Elsir Vale and both Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms
3. There is no place given for the Elsir Vale on any Nentir Vale Map
4. The only official connections between the two settings appear to be two references from the DDI published Scales of War Adventure Path.
5. The Nenir Vale incorporates a wide range of locations tied to other settings (like Greyhawk and Mystara) yet these do not automatically get moved to that forum.



As of now, we technically don't have a single topic about using Elsir Vale as it's own campaign setting. So, it's not so much that we have not got to the threshold of Elsir Vale possibly earning it's own forum or subforum. We just have not started yet (unless there are topics that I've not found in either of those two searches).
LOL, since we are only talking about a single thread it is probably not worth making such a fuzz about. :)

We might consider tagging the threads about the Scales of War with the Elsir Vale tag as well:

Scales of War
Scales of War AP for Mystara

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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Big Mac » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:35 am

Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Havard wrote:Sorry, I guess I should have explained why I feel this is not such a good idea.
Zeromaru X wrote: However, we have to take into account that the Nentir Vale was also created to be put in any world.
Basically this is my point. The Red Hand of Doom and the Elsir Vale are part of the Nentir Vale, but they are not exclusively a part of that setting.
Ah, I see.

This is kind of on the same level of Ghostwalk supposedly being something that can exist in Forgotten Realms or Eberron...as well as supposedly being it's own setting.

Isn't there the same sort of thing with Thunder Rift, with fans assuming it is part of Mystara, but it officially being published as a standalone thing?

Not going to get into Thunder Rift here, but I would say this is a different case than any of these because:

1. Red Hand of Doom was created before the Nentir Vale/4E
2. There are several connections between the Elsir Vale and both Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms
3. There is no place given for the Elsir Vale on any Nentir Vale Map
4. The only official connections between the two settings appear to be two references from the DDI published Scales of War Adventure Path.
5. The Nenir Vale incorporates a wide range of locations tied to other settings (like Greyhawk and Mystara) yet these do not automatically get moved to that forum.
Well, Kara-Tur was created in 1st Edition and then retconned into Forgotten Realms during 2nd Edition, so there is a president for this sort of thing being a possibility.

It all comes down to Scales of War.

Is Scales of War a Nentir Vale adventure path that creates a parallel Elsir Vale to import into Nentir Vale...

...or is Scales of War set in the exact same Elsir Vale that Red Hand of Doom was set in? :?
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:As of now, we technically don't have a single topic about using Elsir Vale as it's own campaign setting. So, it's not so much that we have not got to the threshold of Elsir Vale possibly earning it's own forum or subforum. We just have not started yet (unless there are topics that I've not found in either of those two searches).
LOL, since we are only talking about a single thread it is probably not worth making such a fuzz about. :)

We might consider tagging the threads about the Scales of War with the Elsir Vale tag as well:

Scales of War
Scales of War AP for Mystara
The second of those two topics is clearly a Mystara topic, rather than an Elsir Vale topic. It has "Let's Raid" written all over it. :)

So we are still down to a fraction of the topics we would need to get to the point where this is a concern.
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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Havard » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:19 am

Big Mac wrote:Well, Kara-Tur was created in 1st Edition and then retconned into Forgotten Realms during 2nd Edition, so there is a president for this sort of thing being a possibility.
Oh, I'm not disputing the fact that there was an attempt to retcon the Elsir Vale into the Nentir Vale. It was a fairly weak attempt, especially compared to Kara-Tur, but the connection is there. I have no problem with the fact that the Elsir Vale is in the Nentir Vale Setting (in spite of there not being any designated room for it on the map). My issue is whether the Elsir Vale should belong exclusively to the Nentir Vale. The Nentir Vale is characterized by the fact that they tried to shoehorn in every single classic adventure location into that setting. Why should the Elsir Vale be treated differently here on the Piazza than the Tomb of Horrors?
It all comes down to Scales of War.

Is Scales of War a Nentir Vale adventure path that creates a parallel Elsir Vale to import into Nentir Vale...

...or is Scales of War set in the exact same Elsir Vale that Red Hand of Doom was set in? :?
I think the Scales of War has stronger ties to the Elsir Vale/Red Hand of Doom than the Scales of War has to the Nentir Vale, actually.


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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Big Mac » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:58 pm

Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Well, Kara-Tur was created in 1st Edition and then retconned into Forgotten Realms during 2nd Edition, so there is a president for this sort of thing being a possibility.
Oh, I'm not disputing the fact that there was an attempt to retcon the Elsir Vale into the Nentir Vale. It was a fairly weak attempt, especially compared to Kara-Tur, but the connection is there. I have no problem with the fact that the Elsir Vale is in the Nentir Vale Setting (in spite of there not being any designated room for it on the map). My issue is whether the Elsir Vale should belong exclusively to the Nentir Vale. The Nentir Vale is characterized by the fact that they tried to shoehorn in every single classic adventure location into that setting. Why should the Elsir Vale be treated differently here on the Piazza than the Tomb of Horrors?
The "why" would be because TSR and WotC have reused those other places from Mystara and Greyhawk, meaning that there is already campaign settings to watch over them. (And that does not stop people from starting a Tomb of Horrors topic in Nentir Vale.)

But the entire Elsir Vale campaign setting was said to be part of Nentir Vale.

From a logistical point-of-view, we either "grow" an Elsir Vale forum in Other Worlds...or we "grow" an Elsir Vale subforum in Nentir Vale.
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:It all comes down to Scales of War.

Is Scales of War a Nentir Vale adventure path that creates a parallel Elsir Vale to import into Nentir Vale...

...or is Scales of War set in the exact same Elsir Vale that Red Hand of Doom was set in? :?
I think the Scales of War has stronger ties to the Elsir Vale/Red Hand of Doom than the Scales of War has to the Nentir Vale, actually.
The impression I got from Ripvanwormer was that the Scales of War adventure path was set in Elsir Vale...and I got the impression that Scales of War specifically introduced the idea that Elsir Vale was on the same planet as Nentir Vale. That seems pretty similar to the way that Kara-Tur was retconned into Forgotten Realms to me.

Maybe I'll ping Rip and see what he says, because I thought I understood him and that he was saying they were the same setting, but you seem certain that this is not the case. Perhaps I misunderstood him. :?
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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Havard » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:08 pm

Big Mac wrote:The "why" would be because TSR and WotC have reused those other places from Mystara and Greyhawk, meaning that there is already campaign settings to watch over them. (And that does not stop people from starting a Tomb of Horrors topic in Nentir Vale.)

But the entire Elsir Vale campaign setting was said to be part of Nentir Vale.
Sure, but it is still a single adventure location originally from a single adventure. Also, the Elsir Vale has links to both the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk.

From a logistical point-of-view, we either "grow" an Elsir Vale forum in Other Worlds...or we "grow" an Elsir Vale subforum in Nentir Vale.
I'd like to see an Elsir Vale Forum that is separate from the Nentir Vale forum, just as Blackmoor is separate from Greyhawk and Mystara.


The impression I got from Ripvanwormer was that the Scales of War adventure path was set in Elsir Vale...and I got the impression that Scales of War specifically introduced the idea that Elsir Vale was on the same planet as Nentir Vale. That seems pretty similar to the way that Kara-Tur was retconned into Forgotten Realms to me.

Maybe I'll ping Rip and see what he says, because I thought I understood him and that he was saying they were the same setting, but you seem certain that this is not the case. Perhaps I misunderstood him. :?
[/quote]

That is not what I am saying. Scales of War is originally set in the Elsir Vale and two adventures later in the series do reference the Nentir Vale. So I do not disagree with Ripvanwormer on that issue. However, I think that Kara-Tur being incorporated into the Forgotten Realms was solidified to a much greater degree since a) the connection is made over a large number of products and novels, b) has been established for decades now and c) the Nentir Vale's record of incorporating any adventure locale available means none of those adventure locales necessarily deserve a special treatment.

In Short, the Elsir Vale does belong in the Nentir Vale, but it also belongs in the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk and perhaps its own thing.


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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by ripvanwormer » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:44 pm

Red Hand of Doom was officially adapted to Living Greyhawk, so perhaps Elsir Vale belongs to Greyhawk in that sense, though the conversion notes recommended that Elsir Vale's geography be swapped with that of Sterich.

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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by banesbox » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:33 pm

Speaking of Thunder Rift, shouldn't it have a dedicated thread?

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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Havard » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:36 pm

banesbox wrote:Speaking of Thunder Rift, shouldn't it have a dedicated thread?
Feel free to start one here in the Kippin Griffin or in the Thunder Rift forum.

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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Big Mac » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:49 am

ripvanwormer wrote:Red Hand of Doom was officially adapted to Living Greyhawk, so perhaps Elsir Vale belongs to Greyhawk in that sense, though the conversion notes recommended that Elsir Vale's geography be swapped with that of Sterich.
So that makes Greyhawk's Elsir Vale a reboot then? :)

What happened about Forgotten Realms's Elsir Vale? Did they reboot that too?
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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Big Mac » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:51 am

banesbox wrote:Speaking of Thunder Rift, shouldn't it have a dedicated thread?
There is an entire Thunder Rift subforum at The Piazza (inside the Mystara forum).

Make as many topics as you need to. :)
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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Havard » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:56 am

Big Mac wrote:
ripvanwormer wrote:Red Hand of Doom was officially adapted to Living Greyhawk, so perhaps Elsir Vale belongs to Greyhawk in that sense, though the conversion notes recommended that Elsir Vale's geography be swapped with that of Sterich.
So that makes Greyhawk's Elsir Vale a reboot then? :)
In addition to the Living Greyhawk connection, there is also the idea that all the generic D&D material under 3E was supposedly set in Greyhawk, using the Greyhawk pantheons etc. Or since some dispute that that world is actually Greyhawk, the Elsir Vale would exist in the quasi-Greyhawk setting with all the other 3E core stuff.

What happened about Forgotten Realms's Elsir Vale? Did they reboot that too?
The connection to the Forgotten Realms is actually that the Elsir Vale map is based on a region in the Forgotten Realms as shown in this thread.

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Re: Elsir Vale topics to be moved to Nentir Vale forum

Post by Big Mac » Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:07 pm

Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
ripvanwormer wrote:Red Hand of Doom was officially adapted to Living Greyhawk, so perhaps Elsir Vale belongs to Greyhawk in that sense, though the conversion notes recommended that Elsir Vale's geography be swapped with that of Sterich.
So that makes Greyhawk's Elsir Vale a reboot then? :)
In addition to the Living Greyhawk connection, there is also the idea that all the generic D&D material under 3E was supposedly set in Greyhawk, using the Greyhawk pantheons etc. Or since some dispute that that world is actually Greyhawk, the Elsir Vale would exist in the quasi-Greyhawk setting with all the other 3E core stuff.
There is that.

I've heard that changes in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5, with 3.0 material more likely to have a Greyhawk-lite connection and 3.5 material more likely to not have a Greyhawk-lite connection. I've not had a chance to study it all, so I'm not sure. :?
Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:What happened about Forgotten Realms's Elsir Vale? Did they reboot that too?
The connection to the Forgotten Realms is actually that the Elsir Vale map is based on a region in the Forgotten Realms as shown in this thread.
That's Knightfall's topic about importing Elsir Vale into Nentir Vale. I didn't notice a solid argument that the Elsir Vale map was part of Faerûn there.

The Greyhawk mention seems to end up with a statement that Greyhawk rebooted Elsir Vale to import it (which implies to me that Elsir Vale is not in Greyhawk and that Sterich is the Greyhawk replacement for Elsir Vale in the Red Hand of Doom adaptation). That seems to be a fairly good case to argue for Elsir Vale to not be Greyhawk or Greyhawk-lite.

If you are saying that Elsir Vale is part of Toril, we need to compare maps and see if there was any sort of adaptation to make it fit.

Perhaps we can either establish a link with a "pure Elsir Vale" and Forgotten Realms, or perhaps we can establish a stronger link between Scales of War and Nentir Vale.

(Of course, if we were talking this much about the actual Elsir Vale setting/subsetting, we would be on our way towards getting a forum for it. ;) )
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