[Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

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[Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Big Mac » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:18 am

I've started to go through Chris Pramas's Chainmail articles, to see if I can find any useful "hooks" for expanding the Chainmail Campaign Setting and the North Wind Society, from The Empire of Ravilla (Dragon Magazine 285, pages 92-95) looks interesting.

The North Wind Society is one of a number duelling societies that sprang up in the Gray Elf city-states, that were built after the end of the Demon War. After the duelling societies were founded, they are said to have specialised in a "bewildering array of exotic weapons". The duellists of the North Wind Society specialise in fighting with two-bladed swords.

To play a North Wind duelist, a player has to create an elven 1st level fighter and give them the Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Then when they advance to 2nd level, the player has to give the PC the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (two-bladed sword) feat. The PC can then take part in an initiation ceremony, where the North Wind Society presents them with a weapon.

However, I'm thinking that this reminds me of the People's Champion PrC and that it should be possible to expand what Chris Pramas wrote and make the three feats into Prerequisits for a North Wind duelist PrC. (Or maybe use or modify something from Minatures Handbook, Heroes of Battle, Complete Warrior or another 3e book.)

EDIT: It looks like the Exotic Weapon Master PrC from page 30 of Complete Warrior might work for the North Wind Society and/or other elven duelling societies in Ravilla.
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[Chainmail][Ravilla] Snakestrike duelists

Post by Big Mac » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:12 am

Big Mac wrote:EDIT: It looks like the Exotic Weapon Master PrC from page 30 of Complete Warrior might work for the North Wind Society and/or other elven duelling societies in Ravilla.
I've just spotted a miniature, called the Gray Elf Snakestrike Duelist in the Battle Sheets! collection.

Snakestrike duelists learn the spiked chain (instead of the two-bladed sword that the North Wind duelists learn).

I think there should be a Snakestrike Society, based in a different gray elf city to the North Wind Society.
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Big Mac » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:30 pm

Big Mac wrote:After the duelling societies were founded, they are said to have specialised in a "bewildering array of exotic weapons". The duellists of the North Wind Society specialise in fighting with two-bladed swords.
Here is a list of Exotic Weapons from the SRD (also found in the PHB). I'm going to include any "special features" that weapons have, as a dueling society, based around a weapon with "special attacks", feel like it was more highly skilled.

Exotic Weapons of the SRD

Light Melee Weapons
  • Kama*: "You can use a kama to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the kama to avoid being tripped."
  • Nunchaku*: "With a nunchaku, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an enemy (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails)."
  • Sai*: "With a sai, you get a +4 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an enemy (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails)."
  • Siangham*
* = All four of the Light Melee Weapons also count as Monk Weapons, meaning that there might be dueling societies that take some level of monk training, at some point.

FRCS has some Monk Orders that are allowed to level in specific classes. Perhaps a GM running a tabletop Chainmail Campaign Setting game might want to consider creating up to four Monk Orders that allow monks to multiclass as fighters that are members of the specific dueling society. (Or perhaps they might want to go with four gray elf dueling monk societies instead of fighter dueling socieities. The names of the existing dueling societies do seem pretty monk-ish.)

The Exotic Weapon Master PrC from page 30 of Complete Warrior might still work well with monk duelist orders.

One-Handed Melee Weapons
  • Sword, Bastard: "A bastard sword is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."
  • Waraxe, Dwarven**: "A dwarven waraxe is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A Medium character can use a dwarven waraxe two-handed as a martial weapon, or a Large creature can use it one-handed in the same way. A dwarf treats a dwarven waraxe as a martial weapon even when using it in one hand."
  • Whip***: "A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

    "Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

    "You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped.

    "When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).

    "You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you."
** = This weapon is associated with a non-elven race. Other races are not barred from using them, but a GM might feel this is a less appropriate weapon for an elven dueling society to learn.

*** = This is a non-lethal weapon, so it seems less appropriate for a dueling society. But perhaps there could be a more pacifist society that specialises in non-lethal combat.

This group is a lot more problematic than the Light Melee Weapons group, as all three weapons have issues.

A bastard sword is not especially special, if people can use it in both hands, so the focus of a dueling society based around the bastard sword might have to focus on using it single handed, to show that you can.

A dwarven waraxe might be something that elves can learn, but they might have problems buying them in large quantities. It just feels wrong to me. I'd suggest not including this unless you needed lots of dueling socieities and was running out of weapons to give them. Perhaps if there were some dwarves loyal to Ravilla, a society based around this weapon would make more sense, but I've not seen anything to indicate that in the canon I've read so far.

A whip is much less useful in a Chainmail miniatures game, and therefore would be much less likely to have been given a dueling society miniature, if Chainmail had continued. So I think that the feel for this one is also wrong. However, the idea of duelists that whip each other into unconsciousness could be fun for some GMs and players, and a dueling society based around whips might be useful if you want to have adventures where the PCs need to capture people alive. (Capturing people alive in the Chainmail setting could be quite tricky, as the legacy of Stratis would make a lot of people kill their enemies.)

Two-Handed Melee Weapons
  • Axe, Orc Double**: "An orc double axe is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

    "A creature wielding an orc double axe in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round. "
  • Chain, Spiked (Snakestrike Socieity): " A spiked chain has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe.

    "You can make trip attacks with the chain. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped.

    "When using a spiked chain, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails).

    "You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a spiked chain sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you."
  • Flail, Dire: " A dire flail is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a dire flail in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon— only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

    "When using a dire flail, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an enemy (including the opposed attack roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails).

    "You can also use this weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the dire flail to avoid being tripped."
  • Hammer, Gnome Hooked**: " A gnome hooked hammer is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The hammer’s blunt head is a bludgeoning weapon that deals 1d6 points of damage (crit ×3). Its hook is a piercing weapon that deals 1d4 points of damage (crit ×4). You can use either head as the primary weapon. The other head is the offhand weapon. A creature wielding a gnome hooked hammer in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

    "You can use a gnome hooked hammer to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the gnome hooked hammer to avoid being tripped. "
  • Sword, Two-Bladed (North Wind Society): "A two-bladed sword is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a two-bladed sword in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."
  • Urgrosh, Dwarven**: " A dwarven urgrosh is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The urgrosh’s axe head is a slashing weapon that deals 1d8 points of damage. Its spear head is a piercing weapon that deals 1d6 points of damage. You can use either head as the primary weapon. The other is the off-hand weapon. A creature wielding a dwarven urgrosh in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

    "If you use a ready action to set an urgrosh against a charge, you deal double damage if you score a hit against a charging character. If you use an urgrosh against a charging character, the spear head is the part of the weapon that deals damage. "
** = This weapon is associated with a non-elven race. Other races are not barred from using them, but a GM might feel this is a less appropriate weapon for an elven dueling society to learn.

Aside from the fact that there are three racial weapons, that probably would not be available to an elven dueling society, this group is a great one. Both the North Wind Society and the Snakestrike Society weapons are in this group. There should definitely be a dueling society that uses the dire flail. I would personally make that the first fanon society, as it fits in with the theme of the two canon societies.

If a GM wanted to shoehorn the three racial weapons into gray elven dueling socitities, they would need to find a background that helps explain it. Friendly dwarves or friendly gnomes might help explain two of the weapons being sold to elves, but the orc weapon is less explainable. Perhaps some sort of back story where an elf fights a single combat against an orc from Drazen's Horde to win a weapon could help explain a society associated with that weapon. But I can't imagine so many 2nd or 3rd level fighters being able to do that.

Ranged Weapons
  • Bolas: "You can use this weapon to make a ranged trip attack against an opponent. You can’t be tripped during your own trip attempt when using a set of bolas. "
  • Crossbow, hand: " You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. Loading a hand crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

    "You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons."
  • Crossbow, repeating heavy: " The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

    "You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever, and you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts. "
  • Crossbow, repeating light: As above.
  • Net***: " A net is used to entangle enemies. When you throw a net, you make a ranged touch attack against your target. A net’s maximum range is 10 feet. If you hit, the target is entangled. An entangled creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a DC 15 Concentration check or be unable to cast the spell.

    "An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The net has 5 hit points and can be burst with a DC 25 Strength check (also a full-round action).

    "A net is useful only against creatures within one size category of you.

    "A net must be folded to be thrown effectively. The first time you throw your net in a fight, you make a normal ranged touch attack roll. After the net is unfolded, you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls with it. It takes 2 rounds for a proficient user to fold a net and twice that long for a nonproficient one to do so."
  • Shuriken: "A shuriken can’t be used as a melee weapon.

    Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown."
*** = This is a non-lethal weapon, so it seems less appropriate for a dueling society. But perhaps there could be a more pacifist society that specialises in non-lethal combat.

I see no mention of dueling societies that use ranged weapons in the canon, but people did duel with pistols in the real world, so it isn't such a bad fit. However, the net is even more "clunky" than the whip. You pretty much get one attempt to get it right, and then you are penalised until you gather it up properly. I would definitely put the net somewhere near the end of the lists of weapons to design fanon dueling societies around.

There is one monk weapon in this group (the Shuriken), so again, that might be useful if you want to build a monk dueling society.

This group of exotic weapons is inflated a bit by having three types of crossbow. It might be more appropriate to have all three types of crossbow be options used by members in a single dueling society. I guess it depends on how many other exotic weapon types you exclude, and how many that leaves you with.
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Icarus » Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:56 am

You know, it always seems that we hit on *so* many things at a similar time.
I was just beginning to translate more of the Chronicles of the Black Moon comics, and that led me to re-evaluating the Chainmail stuff.
So, the Elven Dueling Societies came up in my research. You may recall when I posted a photo in the Canonfire! FB group with an autographed (by Chris Pramas) boxed set from the Chainmail minis line. It happens to have been the one that included the Snakestrike Duelist.

I'm rather fond of the way that Chris wrote the society of the elves for that one. They're very different, in my opinion, than standard elves are in other settings. Of course, they're Grey Elves, so they're different right from the start. You obviously read Dragon Magazine #285 that includes the information on the Duelists ... but, let's talk about the "bewildering array of exotic weapons" and the Prestige Classes.

I think that you're definitely right about the Exotic Weapons Master. There's so much there that can be easily molded for any weapon without having to have a separate class for each weapon. I think that a lot of that kind of specialization can come from feat selection and such and is less about PrCs ... also, I think that reflects the Societies' similarities in their form, but, slight differences mostly based on which weapon they use. If there were separate classes, the societies would seem vastly different from each other, and their would be less cohesiveness to the culture. ... I think of it like football teams, in a way. They're all very similar, but, it's the small differences that make them so unique. Or like marital arts monasteries.

One of the important parts, I think, is the unique standard of exotic weapons. I can absolutely see the Spiked Chain being used something like a Chain Whip from Kung Fu. Kung Fu definitely has a dazzling array of weapons. I'd like to see some of the weapons that are like variations of the Spiked Chain (which have been given game stats) used for Elven Duelists. ... Rope Dart, Meteor Hammer, Nine Section Whip, Gusari Kama, or Manriki gusari ... especially the Kama, since it's the most interesting combination of those, I think.
...
Some of the others, like the two-bladed sword, is obviously the North Wind Society, but, it could be just as interesting with something like an Elven Curved Blade - especially if it were two of them. You mentioned nets, but, I know there were ancient Roman gladiators who used them, and there's likely a class, or feats, that could certainly make them interesting. Also, things like an iron fan would fit right into the social aspect of the duelists, since it's a courtesan's weapon. Deer Horn Knives (also called Duck Blades) are also really cool, and they would be sufficiently flashy to warrant a society that uses them. I *really* think that an estoc-wielding duelist would be rather interesting.
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[Chainmail][Ravilla] Lajatang duelists

Post by Big Mac » Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:04 am

Big Mac wrote:
Big Mac wrote:EDIT: It looks like the Exotic Weapon Master PrC from page 30 of Complete Warrior might work for the North Wind Society and/or other elven duelling societies in Ravilla.
I've just spotted a miniature, called the Gray Elf Snakestrike Duelist in the Battle Sheets! collection.

Snakestrike duelists learn the spiked chain (instead of the two-bladed sword that the North Wind duelists learn).

I think there should be a Snakestrike Society, based in a different gray elf city to the North Wind Society.
I've just discovered a third dueling society on the TSR Archive page for Chainmail. The page includes a number of names and stock numbers for vaporware Chainmail products, including the follwoing singles:
TSR Archive: Chainmail wrote:Singles
17611 Gith Revenant - cancelled
17612 Orc Rager - cancelled
17613 Drider Trooper - cancelled
17614 Ancestral Guardian - cancelled
17615 Ettercap - cancelled
17616 Gray Elf Lajatang Duelist - cancelled
17619 Thalish Clay Golem - cancelled
96276 Drow Ranger - cancelled
96278 Displacer Beast - cancelled
96279 Drow Wizard - cancelled
96280 Drow Soldier (x2) - cancelled
I might talk about some of these other missing minis in another topic, at some point (the "Ancestral Guardian" looks pretty interesting), but for now, I'll focus on the "17616 Gray Elf Lajatang Duelist" mini.

A bit of searching brought up a page called "WotC Sculptors List" on Lost Minis Wiki:
Lost Minis Wiki wrote:Unreleased Chainmail
17616|Gray Elf Lajatang Duelist (Unreleased)|Paul Muller
I also found a picture (a very small picture) on the same wiki:
Lost Minis Wiki wrote:Image
WOC17616
Gray Elf Lajatang Duelist
unreleased
I can not make out enough detail on that picture, to work out what exotic weapon the Lajatang Duelist is holding, but I would infer that the Gray Elves have a Lajatang Society, that uses its own weapon.

Perhaps Paul Muller or Chris Pramas can give us a little bit of detail about the Lajatang Society. :)

EDIT: If you have the Chainmail Core Rulebook, there is actually a picture of a Lajatang Duelist on page 15. He has some sort of staff that has a big "C" shape at each end. It might be some sort of blade designed to go around necks to chop heads off. (The mini is behind another mini, so I can't be totally sure that the bottom end has a "C" on it, but it looks like it does.)
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] Lajatang duelists

Post by Big Mac » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:10 am

Big Mac wrote:Perhaps Paul Muller or Chris Pramas can give us a little bit of detail about the Lajatang Society. :)

EDIT: If you have the Chainmail Core Rulebook, there is actually a picture of a Lajatang Duelist on page 15. He has some sort of staff that has a big "C" shape at each end. It might be some sort of blade designed to go around necks to chop heads off. (The mini is behind another mini, so I can't be totally sure that the bottom end has a "C" on it, but it looks like it does.)
Chris Pramas was kind enough to help out: :cool:
Chris Pramas wrote:The weapon is called the lajatang. It first appeared in AD&D in Oriental Adventures back in the 80s.
Then when I said thanks, he gave me a bit more information:
Chris Pramas wrote:
David Shepheard wrote:Awesome. I didn't even think they would be named after the weapon they use!

This does seem to add more suggestions that your Dueling Socieities are pretty monkish.
More like kensai. The idea was that we'd eventually do enough of them that you could field a duelist warband as a themed force.
It's a shame that duelist warband thing never worked out.

The Miniatures Handbook, could easily have been a continuation of Chainmail, instead of a replacement. If they wanted to switch from Chainmail rules to DDM rules, I'm sure they could have asked Chris Pramas to knock up a plot-change, where somebody became the new God of War to go with the transition.

Does anyone know of any non-Chainmail elf minis that have exotic weaons?
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] Lajatang duelists

Post by Big Mac » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:38 am

Chris Pramas wrote:The weapon is called the lajatang. It first appeared in AD&D in Oriental Adventures back in the 80s.
There is also a Lajatang on page 73 of the 3rd Edition Oriental Adventures, with an illustration on page 71 and the stats on page 72. It is a larger weapon for monks (so an elven fighting-monk order associated with the Lajatang Society could allow for more attacks).

The book also has a Korobokuru-Lajatang, which is a shorter (medium sized) version for smaller monks to use.
Image
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by The Dark » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:28 am

The description of the lajatiang seems a lot like the hwa-kek from Kuntao (a martial art developed by Chinese in Malaysia). There was a type of spear called a ji, which had a crescent blade (with points facing outward). The hwa-kek added a second crescent blade on the other end. I'd be tempted to use the monk's spade instead - it has two different types of end, and both have practical uses.

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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] Lajatang duelists

Post by Big Mac » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:32 pm

I'm behind with this topic (due to hunting for RPG stuff in Liverpool) but Chris Pramas pointed me at a better picture of a Lajatang duelist:
Image

I love those curly grip things around the staff part of the weapon.
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Big Mac » Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:07 am

Icarus wrote:You know, it always seems that we hit on *so* many things at a similar time.
<cue Twilight Zone theme />
Icarus wrote:I was just beginning to translate more of the Chronicles of the Black Moon comics, and that led me to re-evaluating the Chainmail stuff.
So, the Elven Dueling Societies came up in my research. You may recall when I posted a photo in the Canonfire! FB group with an autographed (by Chris Pramas) boxed set from the Chainmail minis line. It happens to have been the one that included the Snakestrike Duelist.

I'm rather fond of the way that Chris wrote the society of the elves for that one. They're very different, in my opinion, than standard elves are in other settings. Of course, they're Grey Elves, so they're different right from the start. You obviously read Dragon Magazine #285 that includes the information on the Duelists ... but, let's talk about the "bewildering array of exotic weapons" and the Prestige Classes.
Is there any sort of paperwork that came in that boxed set, that is different to the core rulebooks (and the Dragon Magazine articles)?

I've been seeing several books, but I'm also seeing people suggest those books are the same as books that come inside the boxed sets. So I'm a bit confused there. I'm pretty sure I've been seeing different product numbers. It would be easier (for example) if I had a full list of products that mention Ravilla.
Icarus wrote:I think that you're definitely right about the Exotic Weapons Master. There's so much there that can be easily molded for any weapon without having to have a separate class for each weapon. I think tha ta lot of that kind of specialization can come from feat selection and such and is less about PrCs ... also, I think that reflects the Societies' similarities in their form, but, slight differences mostly based on which weapon they use. If there were separate classes, the societies would seem vastly different from each other, and their would be less cohesiveness to the culture. ... I think of it like football teams, in a way. Their all very similar, but, it's the small differences that make them so unique. Or like marital arts monasteries.
Well it was what the canon source said, along with a mention of the North Wind Duelist. I think that the feats might need a tweak for certain dueling societies (depending on the weapon type), but you are right. A single set of rules would allow a GM to focus on the weapon element. A lot of the exotic weapons provide PCs/NPCs with special attack options.

Perhaps one or two feats that enhance exotic weapon attack forms might be of interest to Chainmail players.
Icarus wrote:One of the important parts, I think, is the unique standard of exotic weapons. I can absolutely see the Spiked Chain being used something like a Chain Whip from Kung Fu. Kung Fu definitely has a dazzling array of weapons. I'd like to see some of the weapons that are like variations of the Spiked Chain (which have been given game stats) used for Elven Duelists. ... Rope Dart, Meteor Hammer, Nine Section Whip, Gusari Kama, or Manriki gusari ... especially the Kama, since it's the most interesting combination of those, I think.
I'm now thinking that it would be logical to consider all the exotic weapons from Oriental Adventures (as well as all the exotic weapons from the core rules).
Icarus wrote:Some of the others, like the two-bladed sword, is obviously the North Wind society, but, it could be just as interesting with something like an Elven Curved Blade - especially if it were two of them. You mentioned nets, but, I know there were ancient Roman gladiators who used them, and there's likely a class or feats that could make them certainly interesting. Also, things like an iron fan would fit right into the social aspect of the duelists, since it's a courtesan's weapon. Deer Horn Knives (or also called Duck Blades) are also really cool, and they would be sufficiently flashy to warrant a society that uses them. I *really* think that an estoc -wielding duelist would be rather interesting.
New weapons with elven curved blades could be fun.

I knew about the Roman gladiators who used nets, before I saw nets in D&D. But the D&D rules for nets would seem to put net users at a disadvantage (as the weapon does not cause any damage).

Small weapons, like fans, would make a change from the fairly big weapons that the three canon duelists use.

One thing I am wondering is if there is a way to estimate how many different dueling societies might exist.
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Big Mac » Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:08 am

The Dark wrote:The description of the lajatiang seems a lot like the hwa-kek from Kuntao (a martial art developed by Chinese in Malaysia). There was a type of spear called a ji, which had a crescent blade (with points facing outward). The hwa-kek added a second crescent blade on the other end. I'd be tempted to use the monk's spade instead - it has two different types of end, and both have practical uses.
I've seen both of those. They both look great.

I guess that if you could buy the minis of the lajatiang duelist, you could modify the mini to turn the weapon into a similar one.
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Tumakhunter » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:29 am

So far, each of the Duelist types has used a dual weapon. Would it be a fair assessment to assume that each of the societies did such?

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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Big Mac » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:54 pm

Tumakhunter wrote:So far, each of the Duelist types has used a dual weapon. Would it be a fair assessment to assume that each of the societies did such?
It would certainly be a good way to start. :)

I wonder if there would be enough dual weapons to get away with not using any other types of weapons. :?
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Tumakhunter » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:03 pm

The first one that comes to mind would be the three section staff. I also like the suggestion above of the meteor hammer, though I suppose it's not a dual weapon, per se.

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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Big Mac » Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:12 pm

Tumakhunter wrote:The first one that comes to mind would be the three section staff. I also like the suggestion above of the meteor hammer, though I suppose it's not a dual weapon, per se.
I need to look up the Meteor Hammer to see what it looks like, but it sounds like a fun weapon. And a three section staff sounds fun too.
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Icarus » Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:59 pm

Just a little note that I thought I would include here ...
This is originally from a conversation between BigMac and I, had in private messages. I scanned this for him from Shadow of the Drow: Set 4 Guidebook. I thought I would include it here, for the sake of thoroughness on the topic:
Image

Also, in that conversation, BigMac had mentioned that Chris had pointed out to him that the lajatang was from the Oriental Adventures handbook, and he posited that perhaps Ravilla, or the Grey Elf Dueling Societies had an oriental feel.
That's possible. I think, though, that it's likely that there's a certain amount of equivalency in weapons. Just about every race, for example, has something like a short sword. Humans didn't "invent" it, and there's orcs, elves, and everyone else that has some type of weapon that is statistically a short sword. Just the same as there's a gazillion names for shortswords, even in our own history: Choora peddang, cinqueda, gladius, drusus, zafieh, scramasax, So, it may just be that there's an elven double ended polearm that has crescent blades, that is essentially not any different than an oriental lajatang (statistically). Another example is the Gythka and lajatang in the Athas setting. Both were culturally from Athas, in that setting, and were common throughout.
I think the example of the lajatang being an oriental one is largely just due to the fact that the Kensai (or Sword Saint) is similar in theme to the Grey Elfven Duelisists - in that they study the use of one given weapon to the exclusivity of all others.

Actually, now that I think of it, if someone in a home campaign I were running wanted to play a Grey Elf Duelist using the Kensai PrC, and just have it be non-oriental, and Elven instead ... I would totally go for that.
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Icarus » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:04 pm

So, just the other day, I was talking with Big Mac, and I showed him an illustration that I had been doing for my own research and edification, and he suggested (and highly encouraged) me to share it here on the forums.
There are some incomplete concept illustrations found on the 'net for some of the miniatures from the Chainmail set for the Grey Elf Duelists. I've edited them, and added more to them, since they were cut off above the knees and didn't show the full length of most of the weapons, and changed some details, like cleaning up the facial features of the Northwind Duelist. But, I've tried to retain the original tones and line structure, and not change the original artist's work.

At any rate - if you're interested in the actual image at higher resolution, and a slightly better composition, contact me, and I'll send it to you.
Image
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Big Mac » Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:55 pm

Thanks for posting this artwork.

One of the things that is interesting about this is that each dueling society appears to have it's own uniform.
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Icarus » Sun May 06, 2018 5:51 pm

(So ... a little Thread-Necromancy, here.
But, ... the good kind.)


SO, in 5th Edition's Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide there's a discussion of Elven Bladesinging styles ...
There are styles that are named (or really, categorized) after animals.
  • Cat: Lion = longsword, Leopard = showrtsword, Red Tiger = scimitar
  • Bird: (Hafted) - Eagle = handaxes, Raven = pick
  • Snake: Snake = flail, chain, or whip; Viper = whip
So, there's a little evidence that something like the Dueling Societies of Ravilla exists. It was especially interesting, to me, because of the mention of schools that teach the use of chains, similar to the Snakestrike Duelist. And, they were categorized as "snake styles" ... which, really ... what else would a long, flexible weapon be most likely to be characterized as being?
But, there could certainly be different types of Snakestrikes, and have different characteristics based on the nobility, or lack thereof, of the type of snake they represent ... vipers, asps, cobra, etc.
It also discusses schools themselves.
Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide wrote: ... styles of Bladesinging based on the melee weapon employed. The techniques of these styles are passed from master to students in small schools, some of which have a building dedicated to instruction. Even the newest styles are hundreds of years old, but are still taught by their original creators...
So, I would imagine that there's a significant portion of Ravilla's dueling schools who are Bladesingers, perhaps? I would imagine that not all of them are, to be perfectly honest. I think not all Duelists are Bladesingers, just as not all Bladesingers are Duelists ... BUT considering Ravilla's recent history, and the development of the dueling societies out of a lack of open war and reduced armies, etc, I think that it's pretty likely that Bladesingers would be in the same boat as the Duelists, and often overlap in a Vinn diagram.
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Icarus » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:25 pm

Icarus wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 5:51 pm
SO, in 5th Edition's Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide there's a discussion of Elven Bladesinging styles ...
There are styles that are named (or really, categorized) after animals.
  • Cat: Lion = longsword, Leopard = showrtsword, Red Tiger = scimitar
  • Bird: (Hafted) - Eagle = handaxes, Raven = pick
  • Snake: Snake = flail, chain, or whip; Viper = whip
Hmmm … fascinating.
I was just re-reading in the old 2nd Edition Complete Book of Elves.
More evidence of this kind of group amongst the elves, and how they might work culturally and whatnot.
The Bladesingers, which might also be individual dueling schools, are referred to being defined by animal-styles there, too.
2nd Edition Complete Book of Elves wrote:Distinctive Appearance. Not only are they easily identifiable by their weapon of choice and cat-like grace, Bladesingers are decorated with their weapon guilds distinctive tattoo. Each guild has a separate and unique tattoo depicting its style of weapon through an animal representation. Long swords are often represented by great cats such as lions or panthers, a whip would be shownas a striking snake, and so forth.
It's a really cool note, I thought, that it mentions their tattoos. I'd love to artistically imagine the style of elven tattoos!

Also, I think the distinction of their "weapon guild" is an important one, as well. Because it *strongly* states that the Bladesingers have a group similar to the Duelist schools of Ravilla. (Also referred to as a "Bladesinger's Guild".)

I think for my campaign, personally, I won't make too much distinction between bladesinging guilds and duelist societies. Similar to how the average-Joe doesn't distinguish between Wizards and Sorcerers, or Divine Souls and Clerics.
They serve the same purpose and fill the same niche. But, it would be kind of fun if the members might be particular, saying something like, "We're not a 'society' … we're a guild!!
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Big Mac » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:40 am

Very nice.

I didn't think to look outside of Greyhawk lore for hints on the duelling societies.

I wonder if duelling societies take the place of bladsinger guilds in the Sundered Empire. They did seem to come along and replace something.
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Re: [Chainmail][Ravilla] North Wind duelists

Post by Icarus » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:30 pm

I think that I would say that some Bladesinger Weapon Guilds may've sort of transitioned into Dueling Societies.
I certainly wouldn't think the general populace would distinguish amongst them.
It's probably a common parlance kind of thing … the Bladesinger Guilds were probably once the only ones that there were. But, eventually, when other weapon-style groups came along, people referred to them differently. The average Joe Elf wouldn't pay attention to why they were different, just note there are different groups … I don't think that they'd really care so much.

Kind of like today, we generally say someone is "into martial arts", and that can cover taking Karate lessons, being a long time practitioner of Kung Fu, or even someone who's into watching UFC fighting.
I think the common usage of distinguishing between Bladesingers and Duelists is probably lost to anyone except those who practice them.

I don't necessarily think they'd take the place of them, so much as they'd all be added to them, and mashed into the same category by people who weren't "in the know".
A jargon kind of thing.
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