Eidolon/Eidoloncer levels in living PCs

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Eidolon/Eidoloncer levels in living PCs

Postby Big Mac » Mon May 02, 2016 9:09 pm

The Eidolon class (page 16 of Ghostwalk) and the Eidoloncer class (page 17 of Ghostwalk) are intended to be the only options for ghost PCs who level up while dead. But there is something that came up last year, in the Fortress of the Yuan-ti topic, that made me think that there is a bit of a flaw with these classes, when PCs get brought back to life.

The Eidolon and Eidoloncer give some really cool abilities...for ghosts, via access to Ghost feats...but if PC ghosts come back to life, those abilities can not be used.

The "life epiphany" rules (hidden in the section of "The Calling" on page 13 and the Spellcasting section of the Eidoloncer class on pages 18-19) mean that an Eidolon can swap out some or all of their Eidolon levels for normal class levels and an Eidoloncer can swap out some or all of their class levels into the specific spellcasting class they were advancing.

But while using the "life epiphany" rules stops The Calling, and while it stops a PC from having Ghost feats that they can't use, there are no "death epiphany" rules to allow PCs to swap out normal classes for Eidolon/Eidoloncer levels. So the whole idea of having PCs that can die, come back to life and die again, seems to be a bit hobbled by the fact that you can't build up Eidolon/Eidoloncer levels, without giving a PC abilities that they can't use while alive.

Does anyone have any ideas about how a PC could use "life epiphany" to avoid The Calling, but still be able to switch back and forth between being alive and being a ghost, without having to go all the way back to zero each time? And does anyone have any ideas about how Ghost feats might be used in some way (maybe not the same way) by characters who earned them while they were ghosts?

Perhaps some sort of Prestige Class or Substitution Level system could allow ex-ghosts to have a different type of "life ephiphany" that allows them to either retain some Ghost abilities, or temporarily convert those abilities into something that applies to living characters (so that the abilities can be used normally" the next time they "die").
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Re: Eidolon/Eidoloncer levels in living PCs

Postby Big Mac » Tue May 03, 2016 11:57 am

Big Mac wrote:Perhaps some sort of Prestige Class or Substitution Level system could allow ex-ghosts to have a different type of "life ephiphany" that allows them to either retain some Ghost abilities, or temporarily convert those abilities into something that applies to living characters (so that the abilities can be used normally" the next time they "die").


I know that Sean K Reynolds and Monte Cook designed Ghostwalk to work with just the core rulebooks (which was why they reprinted the non-core stuff they wanted to include) but I wonder if the ghost feats could be converted over into psionic powers, so that ghosts can have powers that are similar to powers that psionic powers have while they are alive. :?

Just throwing this idea out, as it might involve a lot of rebooting.
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Re: Eidolon/Eidoloncer levels in living PCs

Postby willpell » Tue May 03, 2016 5:18 pm

You are allowed to just leave The Calling out of your game, for one easy fix. And you could have the player swap out normal levels for Eidolon levels whenever they die, essentially building two versions of their character, one living and one dead, and level them both up in tandem regardless of which state he's in at the time. Sure, this cheapens the fsck out of mortality, but then, having Resurrection spells in general already did that, you're just running with it and exploring the logical consequences of your handwave, which my deconstructionist preferences say is better than leaving it unexamined.
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Re: Eidolon/Eidoloncer levels in living PCs

Postby Big Mac » Tue May 03, 2016 5:58 pm

willpell wrote:You are allowed to just leave The Calling out of your game, for one easy fix.


That is possible. And that is what Andy Collins did for his Epic Ghostwalk stuff.

But I am trying to stick with The Calling and have PCs that have more living levels than ghost levels. (So I wouldn't be having Epic characters that were all ghosts, but I would have ones that were 11 living levels and 10 ghost levels.

willpell wrote:And you could have the player swap out normal levels for Eidolon levels whenever they die, essentially building two versions of their character, one living and one dead, and level them both up in tandem regardless of which state he's in at the time. Sure, this cheapens the fsck out of mortality, but then, having Resurrection spells in general already did that, you're just running with it and exploring the logical consequences of your handwave, which my deconstructionist preferences say is better than leaving it unexamined.


That's an interesting idea. So, essentially two character sheets for the same character.

I don't know if I'll go that way, myself, but I think that could really work for some people. It's great idea. :)

I don't think that Resurrection is an issue for Ghostwalk, as it is a setting that specifically builds it in as a theme.

I think I like the "life epiphany" concept, as a theme. I wonder if I could build Prestige Classes, based on a cross between the standard classes, and the Eidolon/Eidoloncer classes, and have "life ephiphany" convert ghost levels to those PrCs instead. That way, I could build in a bit of your "two character sheets" concept, but have it be a specific PrC feature (or maybe four specific PrCs).

So it would need to be something like:
  • Resurrected Warrior,
  • Resurrected Rogue,
  • Resurrected Divine Servant and
  • Resurrected Arcane Spellcaster

(Only less naff sounding names. :P )
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Re: Eidolon/Eidoloncer levels in living PCs

Postby willpell » Tue May 03, 2016 6:37 pm

Vaguely relevant - the Risen Martyr class from Book of Exalted Deeds.
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Re: Eidolon/Eidoloncer levels in living PCs

Postby Big Mac » Wed May 04, 2016 12:10 pm

willpell wrote:Vaguely relevant - the Risen Martyr class from Book of Exalted Deeds.


Thanks Willpell! I'll have to have a look at that and see how well it fits what I am clutching for. :)
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