[Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

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[Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Big Mac » Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:59 am

Council of Wyrms has a fairly unique theme to it, with players running dragon PCs as well as humanoid PCs. This has me wondering how easy it would be to use other D&D products in a Council of Wyrms campaign.

Does anyone know of any good adventures that would be easy to repurpose for Council of Wyrms?

Are there framing mechanisms you have, that make it easy for you to use conventional D&D adventures?
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Zeromaru X » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:35 am

The Draconomicons and "Dragons of..." books, even if just for the lore of the species if you don't use other settings stuff. But I can see dragons of the Council behave in a similar manner to those of Argonnessen. Also, I guess dragons of the Council play xorvintaal (that game that comes in 3.5 Monster Manual 5) to avoid open warfare but to sort out the pecking order of dragons.

I can also see that, if you allow dragonborn to exists in the setting of the Council (something I absolutely will do), I guess dragonborn would create some sort of nation like Arkhosia (Nerath's old dragonborn empire). If that's the case, Player's Handbook Races: Dragonborn will be useful (as well the "Ecology of the Dragonborn" article in Dragon 365—free to download at WotC website), and maybe also borrow ideas from Iomandra (Chris Perkin's original setting during D&D 4e).

As for adventures, maybe the Tiamat ones? A group of dragon trying to avoid the Dragon Queen plans because those puny humanoids failed spectacularly?
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Havard » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:11 pm

AC10 Bestiary of Giants and Dragons might be useful too if we are including any edition. Though it is mostly geared towards Mystara.

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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Marsupialmancer » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:41 pm

I don't know if they ever released a continent-specific sourcebook on it for 4E, but anything they might have produced about Returned Abeir for Forgotten Realms during that era might be of use as well. It was supposed to be a dragon-ruled continent, as I dimly recollect, from whence the dragonborn emigrated to the setting.

(Also, I am excited that Council of Wyrms got its own subsection of the forums!)
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Zeromaru X » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:05 pm

Returned Abeir was more the evil empire than anything else. Dragons from Abeir were the stereotypic evil dragon (tm).

I guess Argonessen from Eberron is more like the Io's Blood isle, a loose coalition of dragons trying to get along and pest-controlling those pesky munthreki. On the other hand, Arkhosia, the dragonborn nation of the Nerath/PoL world, was also a dragon nation, were metallics and chromatics lived in harmony and that stuff (gems didn't existed in 4e). I guess you can borrow stuff from that civilization of dragons (mostly explained in Draconomicon 2: Metallic Dragons). The nation of Murghôm on the Realms can also serve as an example of a coalition of loose dragon princes, although there is little written about it in canon.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Big Mac » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:03 am

Zeromaru X wrote:The Draconomicons and "Dragons of..." books, even if just for the lore of the species if you don't use other settings stuff. But I can see dragons of the Council behave in a similar manner to those of Argonnessen. Also, I guess dragons of the Council play xorvintaal (that game that comes in 3.5 Monster Manual 5) to avoid open warfare but to sort out the pecking order of dragons.


The Dragonomicon books sound good.

I'm a fan of Dragonlance and pretty much three quarters of Dragonlance is called "Dragons of" Somesuch (Or "The Dragons of" Somesuch for variety). But I suppose that every generic dragon book would be raidable to some extent. ;)

I didn't think of Argonnessen. I wonder if Keith Baker ever looked at Council of Wyrms and decided to reboot the concepts for Eberron. :?

I'll have to dig out Monster Manual V. But that does sound good. There must be some sort of "cold war" politics going on.

Zeromaru X wrote:I can also see that, if you allow dragonborn to exists in the setting of the Council (something I absolutely will do), I guess dragonborn would create some sort of nation like Arkhosia (Nerath's old dragonborn empire). If that's the case, Player's Handbook Races: Dragonborn will be useful (as well the "Ecology of the Dragonborn" article in Dragon 365—free to download at WotC website), and maybe also borrow ideas from Iomandra (Chris Perkin's original setting during D&D 4e).


If Council of Wyrms got brought back (and I think that's highly unlikely, except as Print on Demand reprints, unfortunately) I think they would definitely look into including things like dragonborn. You have dragons and their humanoid allies. That's where your backstory for dragonborn could come from. Or maybe dragons could try to create their own alternative humanoids from dragon eggs (*cough* Draconians *cough*).

I'll have to find out more about Arkhosia. (Maybe I'll ask about it in the Nentir Vale forum.)

Zeromaru X wrote:As for adventures, maybe the Tiamat ones? A group of dragon trying to avoid the Dragon Queen plans because those puny humanoids failed spectacularly?


Hmm. So I suppose that Tiamat-connected adventures would work.

I was more thinking of ones with no obvious link to dragons. But I guess that dragon PCs could be sitting in a bar (or wherever they meet) when a dragon walks in (or flies in) and asks them to help with a problem somewhere.

I suppose something like Undermountain could have the serial numbers filed off to become a mad dragon that lives in tunnels underneath an island, for example.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Big Mac » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:08 am

Havard wrote:AC10 Bestiary of Giants and Dragons might be useful too if we are including any edition. Though it is mostly geared towards Mystara.


Ack. That's still a redlink on the front page of the Book-House, so I'll have to go searching for reviews, but a book about both giants and dragons sounds very promising.

I don't really care about editions (although other people wanting to raid content might). I'm figuring that an AC10-to-Council of Wyrms conversion would already involve tinkering with the book to reboot any Mystara themes. So having to also reboot some BECMI themes would probably be a trivial amount of difference in the process. The main problem would be stats and Council of Wyrms has it's own stats. (Perhaps something like an AC10 magic item would be unintentionally powerful or weak.)
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Big Mac » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:26 am

Marsupialmancer wrote:I don't know if they ever released a continent-specific sourcebook on it for 4E, but anything they might have produced about Returned Abeir for Forgotten Realms during that era might be of use as well. It was supposed to be a dragon-ruled continent, as I dimly recollect, from whence the dragonborn emigrated to the setting.


I don't know about that either. I've bought some 4th Edition Forgotten Realms books, but have not bought the main book yet. And with DDI stuff being massively advertised as "locked down web enhancements" I was kind of turned off of the entire thing at the time and didn't follow along, like some folks.

However, my feeling is that, even if Returned Abeir was not quite right, the Council of Wyrms map is only a small part of the planet (maybe a quarter of the world tops) and that you would need to have large areas that had some Council of Wyrms themes, but which were totally outside the knowledge of the council.

It's possible that a Rebooted Returned Abeir could be used for an area on the other side of the world.

Marsupialmancer wrote:(Also, I am excited that Council of Wyrms got its own subsection of the forums!)


It's great to finally see it here. :mrgreen:

I first posted a [Council of Wyrms] tagged topic way way back in September 2008 (a few months after The Piazza opened) so I've been waiting for this forum to come along for a number of years. I would have loved to have seen this ages back, but Ashtagon needs to make sure we don't fill the forum up with empty subforums that only have one post in them. (I've seen that elsewhere and it does look bad.) So the Forum Request Thread has three rules to make sure that several fans are writing stuff, they have built up enough conversations to make a forum something that will hopefully continue to grow and the forum is actually wanted by people.

Everyone who has started topics over the years has helped with this. And you may not have started a topic, but your 5e conversion helped move Council of Wyrms fandom forward. That's a great contribution towards this, considering you only have 15 posts here so far. I think that, if you hung around, and spoke about any other minority D&D settings that you are interested in, you could help get another bespoke forum off the ground at some point. :cool:
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Big Mac » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:13 am

Zeromaru X wrote:Returned Abeir was more the evil empire than anything else. Dragons from Abeir were the stereotypic evil dragon (tm).


That is a concern about raiding non-CoW stuff. Dragons are often used as the big bad evil guy in an adventure. In Council of Wyrms they have to be the good guys and the neutral guys too.

I suppose the main thing to ask about Returned Abeir being raided and dropped onto another part of the CoW world is: Would Io allow that sort of thing to happen? (I have no idea. That's not a rhetorical question.)

Zeromaru X wrote:I guess Argonessen from Eberron is more like the Io's Blood isle, a loose coalition of dragons trying to get along and pest-controlling those pesky munthreki. On the other hand, Arkhosia, the dragonborn nation of the Nerath/PoL world, was also a dragon nation, were metallics and chromatics lived in harmony and that stuff (gems didn't existed in 4e). I guess you can borrow stuff from that civilization of dragons (mostly explained in Draconomicon 2: Metallic Dragons). The nation of Murghôm on the Realms can also serve as an example of a coalition of loose dragon princes, although there is little written about it in canon.


That's a good point about there not being gem dragons in 4e. I don't recall them being mentioned in Eberron (although I'm no expert on either Nentir Vale or Eberron).

I don't recall much about gem dragons in D&D history. That's a big hole to fill in products that only cover evil and good dragons.

At least Eberron has that thing about monsters not necessarily following alignment stereotypes. That might allow for some middle-of-the-road dragons. The same might apply to the dragons of Taladas, I suppose. :?
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Havard » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:53 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:The Draconomicons and "Dragons of..." books, even if just for the lore of the species if you don't use other settings stuff.


How many Draconomicon Books (or similar) have been published across editions?

Classic (BECMI) D&D
  • AC 10 Bestiary of Giants and Dragons (1987, TSR)

AD&D 1st Edition
  • Role Aids: Dragons (1982, Mayfair)

AD&D 2nd Edition
  • Forgotten Realms: Draconomicon (1990, TSR)

D&D 3rd Edition

D&D 4th Edition


Anything else belonging to this list?


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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Zeromaru X » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:38 pm

3.x also have the Dragons of Eberron and Dragons of Faerun books. I find Dragons of Eberron particularly useful for Council of Wyrms, due to the civilization eberronian dragons have in Argonessen.
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Re: What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Dragon Turtle » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:42 pm

Discussion of CoW Campaign ideas split into a separate thread here.

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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Big Mac » Tue May 02, 2017 7:10 am

Zeromaru X wrote:3.x also have the Dragons of Eberron and Dragons of Faerun books. I find Dragons of Eberron particularly useful for Council of Wyrms, due to the civilization eberronian dragons have in Argonessen.


Great point. Most other D&D settings don't really have large organisations of dragons, but Eberron does. And they even spy on regular folk, as part of their prophecy thing. That's probably close to Council of Wyrms in some ways.

I guess that Dragonlance having dragonarmies is probably also fairly organised, but they seemed to have humanoid generals in charge of them. Perhaps that could be flipped.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Coronoides » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:06 pm

The Monster Mythology of AD&D 2e has a chapter 'God of the Scaly Folk that includes information on dragon deities including Io.
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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:16 pm

Havard wrote:
Zeromaru X wrote:The Draconomicons and "Dragons of..." books, even if just for the lore of the species if you don't use other settings stuff.


How many Draconomicon Books (or similar) have been published across editions?

Classic (BECMI) D&D
  • AC 10 Bestiary of Giants and Dragons (1987, TSR)

AD&D 1st Edition
  • Role Aids: Dragons (1982, Mayfair)

AD&D 2nd Edition
  • Forgotten Realms: Draconomicon (1990, TSR)

D&D 3rd Edition

D&D 4th Edition


Anything else belonging to this list?


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Re: [Council of Wyrms] What D&D products work with CoW?

Postby Zeromaru X » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:01 am

3.x also has this book named Dragon Magic, that I guess it will be most useful.
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