List of Dragons

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Havard
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List of Dragons

Post by Havard » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:31 pm

What Dragons exist in D&D?

Do all of them have place in CoW? Are there any Dragon types that are not found here?

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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Boneguard » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:43 pm

Havard wrote:What Dragons exist in D&D?

Do all of them have place in CoW? Are there any Dragon types that are not found here?

-Havard
You have the Core 15 only

5 Chromatic: Red, Black, Blue, Green, White
5 Metallic: Gold, silver, Copper, Brass, Bronze
5 Gem: Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, Topaz

Dragon Magazine 263 offers the possibility to add: Cloud, Deep, Mercury, Mist, Shadow, Steel and Yellow Dragon.
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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Big Mac » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:52 am

Havard wrote:What Dragons exist in D&D?

Do all of them have place in CoW?
My Dragon Clans of Io's Blood Islands topic, from 2012 lists 88 clans of metallic, gem and chromatic dragons that have a place in Council of Wyrms. As Boneguard said, that is only 15 types.
Havard wrote:Are there any Dragon types that are not found here?
There are plenty of other types of dragons.

That doesn't necessarily mean those other dragons are not on the same world as the Council of Wyrms campaign setting. But I would say it does mean that they can not be part of the council the setting is named after.

They could either be put onto the other parts (three quarters I think) of the world. Or they could be used as rogue dragons that are not part of the agreement.
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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Big Mac » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:53 am

Boneguard wrote:Dragon Magazine 263 offers the possibility to add: Cloud, Deep, Mercury, Mist, Shadow, Steel and Yellow Dragon.
How does it do that?

Does it provide CoW clans? Or does it do something else?
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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Boneguard » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:58 am

Big Mac wrote:
Boneguard wrote:Dragon Magazine 263 offers the possibility to add: Cloud, Deep, Mercury, Mist, Shadow, Steel and Yellow Dragon.
How does it do that?

Does it provide CoW clans? Or does it do something else?
It's a short article, maybe 4-5 pages with a bit of background for each and some ideas on how to add them...primarily as a rogue dragon IIRC. But mostly they provide use the appropriate charts: stats, XP, class, demihuman preferences, etc. To be able to play them.
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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Big Mac » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:02 pm

Boneguard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Boneguard wrote:Dragon Magazine 263 offers the possibility to add: Cloud, Deep, Mercury, Mist, Shadow, Steel and Yellow Dragon.
How does it do that?

Does it provide CoW clans? Or does it do something else?
It's a short article, maybe 4-5 pages with a bit of background for each and some ideas on how to add them...primarily as a rogue dragon IIRC. But mostly they provide use the appropriate charts: stats, XP, class, demihuman preferences, etc. To be able to play them.
I wonder if there are any fans out there who built on this article and wrote rules for adding other dragons to Council of Wyrms. :?
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Re: List of Dragons

Post by willpell » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:04 am

notes with interest that CoW has gained its own forum since he was last active

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Re: List of Dragons

Post by The Dark » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:58 am

Big Mac wrote:
Boneguard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:
Boneguard wrote:Dragon Magazine 263 offers the possibility to add: Cloud, Deep, Mercury, Mist, Shadow, Steel and Yellow Dragon.
How does it do that?

Does it provide CoW clans? Or does it do something else?
It's a short article, maybe 4-5 pages with a bit of background for each and some ideas on how to add them...primarily as a rogue dragon IIRC. But mostly they provide use the appropriate charts: stats, XP, class, demihuman preferences, etc. To be able to play them.
I wonder if there are any fans out there who built on this article and wrote rules for adding other dragons to Council of Wyrms. :?
Now that you mention it, I do find it odd that I never saw anything on using lung (Oriental dragons) with Council of Wyrms. They would make for an interesting contrast, since all of them start as yu lung (carp dragons) and metamorphose into an adult form on their 101st birthday (although, given that they're water-breathers and can't fly, carp dragons wouldn't make great PCs). It could also introduce conflict between the Celestial Bureaucracy and worship of Io by the Custodians of Concordance.

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Re: List of Dragons

Post by AuldDragon » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:47 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Boneguard wrote:Dragon Magazine 263 offers the possibility to add: Cloud, Deep, Mercury, Mist, Shadow, Steel and Yellow Dragon.
How does it do that?

Does it provide CoW clans? Or does it do something else?
The article is called "The Wyrms of the West." It presents them as living outside of the council on the undetailed lands west of Io's Blood Isles, where humans live. The article is actually only 2 pages with some basic descriptions and the XP tables and the like matching Council of Wyrms. It doesn't detail clans or anything, because these dragons are assumed to not live that way, having been banished from the lands of the Council.
The Dark wrote:Now that you mention it, I do find it odd that I never saw anything on using lung (Oriental dragons) with Council of Wyrms. They would make for an interesting contrast, since all of them start as yu lung (carp dragons) and metamorphose into an adult form on their 101st birthday (although, given that they're water-breathers and can't fly, carp dragons wouldn't make great PCs). It could also introduce conflict between the Celestial Bureaucracy and worship of Io by the Custodians of Concordance.
The other dragons can breed true it seems, as there are hatchling to young adult stats for all of them (and I'm pretty sure some of them talk about young). Carp dragons are just untasked within the Celestial Bureaucracy. But this is the problem: The oriental dragons are all servants of the Celestial Bureaucracy rather than being independent beings like in the west. You could remove those elements from the eastern dragons, but then they're just western dragons in all but appearance. It's one of the reasons I didn't include them in my work on the draconic deities; I don't believe they truly are Io's Children any more. I think the Celestial Bureacracy took some gold (or jade) dragon converts and modified them to suit the needs of the Bureaucracy.

You could use the Linnorms for CoW, but they're poorly balanced against the traditional dragons (most are as strong as bronze and silver dragons, and at least one is far stronger than a gold). Other dragons such as pearl, jacinth, and electrum dragons would be easy to adapt, however.

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Re: List of Dragons

Post by The Dark » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:31 am

AuldDragon wrote:
The Dark wrote:Now that you mention it, I do find it odd that I never saw anything on using lung (Oriental dragons) with Council of Wyrms. They would make for an interesting contrast, since all of them start as yu lung (carp dragons) and metamorphose into an adult form on their 101st birthday (although, given that they're water-breathers and can't fly, carp dragons wouldn't make great PCs). It could also introduce conflict between the Celestial Bureaucracy and worship of Io by the Custodians of Concordance.
The other dragons can breed true it seems, as there are hatchling to young adult stats for all of them (and I'm pretty sure some of them talk about young). Carp dragons are just untasked within the Celestial Bureaucracy.
I had missed that. It would make the others more playable, since they can go from hatchling on up.
But this is the problem: The oriental dragons are all servants of the Celestial Bureaucracy rather than being independent beings like in the west. You could remove those elements from the eastern dragons, but then they're just western dragons in all but appearance. It's one of the reasons I didn't include them in my work on the draconic deities; I don't believe they truly are Io's Children any more. I think the Celestial Bureacracy took some gold (or jade) dragon converts and modified them to suit the needs of the Bureaucracy.
1e is much looser about the CB than 2e. I could see them as an interesting option for CoW because they'd be more religious than the western dragons, and with a totally different religion. I don't think they'd work in a mixed campaign of western dragons and lung, but as a foe or as an alternate view of CoW, they'd be interesting.
You could use the Linnorms for CoW, but they're poorly balanced against the traditional dragons (most are as strong as bronze and silver dragons, and at least one is far stronger than a gold). Other dragons such as pearl, jacinth, and electrum dragons would be easy to adapt, however.

Jeff
I think the ferrous dragons (from Dragon #170) could work as well. They're probably middling power (roughly from white to blue, none quite as powerful as a red or gold).

The undead dragon templates from The Draconomicon (Dragon #234) would make for good villains, either as creations of dragon slayers or of a dracolich.

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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Big Mac » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:20 am

The Dark wrote:
Big Mac wrote:<snip - discussion of Council of Wyrms magazine articles with extra dragons>

I wonder if there are any fans out there who built on this article and wrote rules for adding other dragons to Council of Wyrms. :?
Now that you mention it, I do find it odd that I never saw anything on using lung (Oriental dragons) with Council of Wyrms. They would make for an interesting contrast, since all of them start as yu lung (carp dragons) and metamorphose into an adult form on their 101st birthday (although, given that they're water-breathers and can't fly, carp dragons wouldn't make great PCs). It could also introduce conflict between the Celestial Bureaucracy and worship of Io by the Custodians of Concordance.
I think these dragons would have a radically different feel to them than the other dragons in Council of Wyrms. And I think you are right about the possible conflict between Io and the Celestial Bureaucracy.

Perhaps one way to turn a possible problem into something cool would be to use Oriental Adventures create some sort of Council of Wyrms subsetting. :)

If the Kara-Tur (or Rokugan) setting was removed from OA, but the Asian-style monsters and other Asian-style elements were retained, it might be possible to look at the difference between Council of Wyrms and a typical D&D setting and apply that difference to Oriental Adventures. If there was a separate area with Lung dragons and the Celestial Bureucracy - and the regular dragons and the Custodians of the Concordance were not there, you could build a number of Asian-style dragon clans.

There are less types of lung dragons than there are true dragons, but I guess you could just as easily have extra clans for each dragon type to give you a similar number of dragon clans. :)

I don't know how long the various OA races live, off of the top of my head, so can't make any recommendations there, right now.
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Re: List of Dragons

Post by The Dark » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:55 pm

Big Mac wrote:
The Dark wrote:
Big Mac wrote:<snip - discussion of Council of Wyrms magazine articles with extra dragons>

I wonder if there are any fans out there who built on this article and wrote rules for adding other dragons to Council of Wyrms. :?
Now that you mention it, I do find it odd that I never saw anything on using lung (Oriental dragons) with Council of Wyrms. They would make for an interesting contrast, since all of them start as yu lung (carp dragons) and metamorphose into an adult form on their 101st birthday (although, given that they're water-breathers and can't fly, carp dragons wouldn't make great PCs). It could also introduce conflict between the Celestial Bureaucracy and worship of Io by the Custodians of Concordance.
I think these dragons would have a radically different feel to them than the other dragons in Council of Wyrms. And I think you are right about the possible conflict between Io and the Celestial Bureaucracy.

Perhaps one way to turn a possible problem into something cool would be to use Oriental Adventures create some sort of Council of Wyrms subsetting. :)

If the Kara-Tur (or Rokugan) setting was removed from OA, but the Asian-style monsters and other Asian-style elements were retained, it might be possible to look at the difference between Council of Wyrms and a typical D&D setting and apply that difference to Oriental Adventures. If there was a separate area with Lung dragons and the Celestial Bureucracy - and the regular dragons and the Custodians of the Concordance were not there, you could build a number of Asian-style dragon clans.

There are less types of lung dragons than there are true dragons, but I guess you could just as easily have extra clans for each dragon type to give you a similar number of dragon clans. :)

I don't know how long the various OA races live, off of the top of my head, so can't make any recommendations there, right now.
The half-dragons article from Dragon magazine #206 mentions that only the chiang lung and shen lung have half-dragon offspring; they're all the children of humans, and are considered river spirit folk. Half-chiang lung tend towards samurai and kensai, and half-shen lung towards bushi. OA dragons don't encounter many elves, and they're not interested in hengeyokai or korobokuru (or other demihumans). That would give another good point of conflict, since the CoW dragons know humans primarily as dragonslayers, and the OA dragons are only interested in humans.

(Also of note in that article is that Oriental dragons are considered well-established among the worlds thanks to spelljamming - that gives another possibility on how to introduce them).

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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Coronoides » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:59 am

Alternatively, it would be less work just to assume the Io's Blood is across the ocean from Kara-tur (or your favourite oriental setting). CoW was designed as a isolated chain of islands that could be dropped into almost any campaign world. Which makes the descision to design the local PCs so they are not compatable with other AD&D products kinda weird.
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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Big Mac » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:41 pm

Coronoides wrote:Alternatively, it would be less work just to assume the Io's Blood is across the ocean from Kara-tur (or your favourite oriental setting). CoW was designed as a isolated chain of islands that could be dropped into almost any campaign world. Which makes the descision to design the local PCs so they are not compatable with other AD&D products kinda weird.
You did say yourself that Council of Wyrms canon states that it isn't on the same world as Toril, so that would rule out using Kara-tur, except in a fanon mashup (which might not be such a bad thing).

I'm actually thinking that if Council of Wyrms had a continent that was similar to Kara-Tur, it would kind of need an Asian-style Council of Wyrms hybrid, rather than something that was close to Kara-Tur, Rokugan, Mahasarpa or another "standard Asian-style setting".

I guess we could look at the relationship between Council of Wyrms and most of the western-style D&D campaign settings and see if we could make a list of changes that would need to be made to something like Kara-Tur in order to give it the same level of difference. But an Asian-style government of dragons, or maybe several different nations of dragons, could be a lot of fun!
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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Coronoides » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:11 pm

Yes I did. There is only one sentence in the whole boxed set that gives any indication of when and where the setting is. Make of that what you will. I brought it up because someone thought CoW was in the past and there was disagreement.
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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Big Mac » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:43 pm

Coronoides wrote:Yes I did. There is only one sentence in the whole boxed set that gives any indication of when and where the setting is. Make of that what you will. I brought it up because someone thought CoW was in the past and there was disagreement.
I kind of make this of it: A long time ago in a D&D world far far away...

;)
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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Blackleaf » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:59 am

Be cool if they did a 5e UA of CoW to bring it to newer players attention.

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Re: List of Dragons

Post by willpell » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:04 pm

Blackleaf wrote:Be cool if they did a 5e UA of CoW to bring it to newer players attention.
It absolutely would be cool if they did that. Rules allowing for hatchling dragons as balanced mid-level PCs would make me deliriously happy.

I feel as though the 3.5 supplement Dragon Magic was meant to reference both Dragonlance and Council of Wyrms, but only obliquely, and this seems to have been the last time either setting was given a nod (3E also had an explicit Dragonlance conversion book, but that was much earlier in the run).

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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Coronoides » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:03 pm

willpell wrote:
Blackleaf wrote:Be cool if they did a 5e UA of CoW to bring it to newer players attention.
It absolutely would be cool if they did that. Rules allowing for hatchling dragons as balanced mid-level PCs would make me deliriously happy.

I feel as though the 3.5 supplement Dragon Magic was meant to reference both Dragonlance and Council of Wyrms, but only obliquely, and this seems to have been the last time either setting was given a nod (3E also had an explicit Dragonlance conversion book, but that was much earlier in the run).
In the mean time my race analysis and design book has Young dragons that are compatible with other campaign settings (see signature for link). I use a level adjustments young dragons range from LA5 to LA11. Here's a quote from the article:

DRAGONS
It is odd how a game called Dungeons & Dragons does not feature dragon PCs. These are all
young dragons within the first few decades of life and therefore about the same age in years as
other PCs. Though not full grown, a dragon character is an independent adult. Since the next age
category is reached at age 101 it is unlikely that the PC will progress in a typical campaign.


There is also a new dragon race playable from 1st level.
Need to convert races to D&D 5e? mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/ ... rs-Toolkit

Conversion & Review of Council of Wryms with dragon PCs compatible with other 5e settings (at level 5+). DRAFT: Book 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/magh66x3ly8q5 ... 8.pdf?dl=0 and Book 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0n3i5bki6svae ... 0.pdf?dl=0

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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Zeromaru X » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:13 am

willpell wrote:
Blackleaf wrote:Be cool if they did a 5e UA of CoW to bring it to newer players attention.
It absolutely would be cool if they did that. Rules allowing for hatchling dragons as balanced mid-level PCs would make me deliriously happy.

I feel as though the 3.5 supplement Dragon Magic was meant to reference both Dragonlance and Council of Wyrms, but only obliquely, and this seems to have been the last time either setting was given a nod (3E also had an explicit Dragonlance conversion book, but that was much earlier in the run).
Dragonlance has some official conversions in 4e dragon magazines (tinker gnomes, dragonborn as draconians, a few specific magic items from Dragonlance).

Council of Wyrms got a minor reference in the Draconomicon 2.

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Re: List of Dragons

Post by Zeromaru X » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:27 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Coronoides wrote:Yes I did. There is only one sentence in the whole boxed set that gives any indication of when and where the setting is. Make of that what you will. I brought it up because someone thought CoW was in the past and there was disagreement.
I kind of make this of it: A long time ago in a D&D world far far away...

;)
Now that I think about it (and seeing Chris Perkins other homemade worlds), perhaps Io's Blood Chain is located in the past of Iomandra.

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