[13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

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[13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Tim Baker » Tue May 29, 2018 2:19 am

During The Piazza's 10th Birthday Chat on Discord, there were some topics that the community thought would be worthy of additional discussion on longer-lived forum threads. This is one such thread.

The question was, "given that in 13 Age's default setting, there are dragon icons, and one of them was powerful enough to destroy a large section of the empire before powerful wards banished him from its borders, would there be some way to tie Council of Wyrms to 13th Age?" You can learn the basics about 13th Age icons here: http://www.13thagesrd.com/icons/. They aren't just important as a means of tying PCs to the setting and providing the GM with hooks for inspiration and improvisation, but they provide mechanical crunch, too.

We didn't come up with any great answers. It seems that CoW is sufficiently different from the outline of a setting that 13th Age offers players and GMs to flesh out. Could CoW have taken place in one of the prior 12 ages? Could the dragon icons still be alive as remnants from that prior age? Could CoW take place in a nearby location? What would that mean for the dragons who are in the nearby or neighboring Dragon Empire of 13th Age? (The Dragon Empire is named that because the human emperor gained support of metalic dragons, not because it's an empire ruled by or comprised of dragons, by the way.)
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Gravesguardian » Tue May 29, 2018 2:55 am

As I recall from CoW, the Dragon's were all dwelling on a cluster of isles (Io's Isles, I think they were called). The human dragonslayers came from across the sea. The lands of 13th Age could be one more landmass tossed into the mix. (I don't recall any kind of map showing the human lands, perhaps they actually came from the map of 13th Age you posted. That would place the dragon isles to the east across the waters on your map.)

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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Tim Baker » Tue May 29, 2018 3:06 am

Gravesguardian wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:55 am
As I recall from CoW, the Dragon's were all dwelling on a cluster of isles (Io's Isles, I think they were called). The human dragonslayers came from across the sea. The lands of 13th Age could be one more landmass tossed into the mix. (I don't recall any kind of map showing the human lands, perhaps they actually came from the map of 13th Age you posted. That would place the dragon isles to the east across the waters on your map.)
In that case, perhaps the dragons themselves are represented by an icon or two, rather than the chromatic and a metallic dragon icons in the default setting. That would probably suffice for dragonslayers to have organizations that they're united against, but would likely be too little to provide enough texture for players of dragons (although 13th Age would need some tweaking to support dragons as a PC race anyway).
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Gravesguardian » Tue May 29, 2018 3:14 am

If you used the dragons from CoW as Icons, then the PC's could play as half-dragon's or demi-human servant/followers of the draconic icons. (That frees up the dragons to be only used as NPC's)

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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Tim Baker » Tue May 29, 2018 4:05 am

Gravesguardian wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 3:14 am
If you used the dragons from CoW as Icons, then the PC's could play as half-dragon's or demi-human servant/followers of the draconic icons. (That frees up the dragons to be only used as NPC's)
Aren't there 88 clans in CoW? How might this be pared down to a more reasonable list? 13th Age works best with roughly 7-13 icons, including those that are heroic, amgibuous, and evil.
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Gravesguardian » Tue May 29, 2018 4:11 am

I don't have access to CoW; but, I would think that some of those clans could be considered as underneath (as owing fealty) to higher clans. If you can figure out the actual clan structure of the isles, then you should be able to narrow it down to the 7-13 largest clans as being iconics.

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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Coronoides » Tue May 29, 2018 11:14 pm

An option would be to use the movers and shakers amongst dragons and thier enemies.
On the dragon side you have the decedents of the three founders of the council Mykell the Grand Custodian, Magnern the Gold of Clan Exaurdon and Firebrand the Red Clan Bloodtide. There is also Io the Dragon God. You could also use Infernis the Dracolich.

As for enemies well the Aboleth and thier Drow pawns could follow some kind of Great Old One. The bullywugs who ride giant swamp worms might worship a truly enormous worm. Similarly the lizard folk might worship a exceptional reptilian gargantua. The fire and frost giants might pledge to sleeping titans but all these are non-canon.

Canon is Io’s support of the Dragonslayer cult of humans. There are also Yuan-ti who presumably have snake god cults.
Last edited by Coronoides on Tue May 29, 2018 11:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Coronoides » Tue May 29, 2018 11:15 pm

Damnit hit wrong button. Sorry on phone on the move.
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Tim Baker » Wed May 30, 2018 4:40 am

Coronoides wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 11:14 pm
An option would be to use the movers and shakers amongst dragons and thier enemies.
On the dragon side you have the decedents of the three founders of the council Mykell the Grand Custodian, Magnern the Gold of Clan Exaurdon and Firebrand the Red Clan Bloodtide. There is also Io the Dragon God. You could also use Infernis the Dracolich.

Canon is Io’s support of the Dragonslayer cult of humans. There are also Yuan-ti who presumably have snake god cults.
If Io is the dragon god, why would he support the Dragonslayer cult? Did the dragons do something to upset him?
Coronoides wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 11:14 pm
As for enemies well the Aboleth and thier Drow pawns could follow some kind of Great Old One. The bullywugs who ride giant swamp worms might worship a truly enormous worm. Similarly the lizard folk might worship a exceptional reptilian gargantua. The fire and frost giants might pledge to sleeping titans but all these are non-canon. There are also Yuan-ti who presumably have snake god cults.
Fanon is fine, too. Do these factions have ties to one another? Is it "everybody against everybody" or are there alliances and "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situations going on?
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Coronoides » Wed May 30, 2018 10:54 am

Wait, what! Io the dragon god is also god of the human dragons layers? WFT!
Ok usually players might know what follows but ALL the PCs and NPCs in the world don't know!
Spoiler
Io the creator god of the dragons is the ultimate 'tough love' parent. "Right kids you're better than all the other people I'm gonna look away for a while and when I get back this world better be tidied up and you better be ruling it. I expect no less from my creations"
Just a few millennia later Io comes back and the world is in chaos and the dragons are warring against each other as only multi-ton flying engines of destruction can. Io's is pissed so he gives them a "Straighten up and fly right" speech. Dragons are arrogant entitled little brats (no wonder given their 'parent') and the 'Word of God' doesn't stop the carnage.
So 'tough love' Io considers the 'strap'. He wants to punish them and to create a threat that will force the dragons to work together. After a bit of searching across the vast ocean he finds a new highly virile, ambitious, and numerous pest species, Humans. He deliberately deceives the humans into worshiping him, creates a religious great civilization dedicated to a crusade to kill all the imperfect mortal dragons whose existence mocks their perfect dragon god. As a 'parent' Io is a piece of work.
The invading human armies forces the dragons to work together but after the war they still quarrel. "For ****'s sake!!" thinks Io and quickly appears in the dreams of three prophets that then found the Council; a kind of 'United Nations' that mediates disputes by diplomacy and ritual combat. To the present day peace is fragile and the nightmare of Dragon-war only averted by the vigilance of the Council
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Coronoides » Wed May 30, 2018 11:05 am

Tim Baker wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 4:40 am
Coronoides wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 11:14 pm
As for enemies well the Aboleth and thier Drow pawns could follow some kind of Great Old One. The bullywugs who ride giant swamp worms might worship a truly enormous worm. Similarly the lizard folk might worship a exceptional reptilian gargantua. The fire and frost giants might pledge to sleeping titans but all these are non-canon. There are also Yuan-ti who presumably have snake god cults.
Fanon is fine, too. Do these factions have ties to one another? Is it "everybody against everybody" or are there alliances and "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situations going on?
In canon the dragons have a mutual defence pact via the Council everyone else just isn't even that organised. The frost giants are split along quarrelling clan lines, there is no indication the other enemies work together in any organised large scale way except the drow and cave fishers who work for the aboleth and a cult of shadow worshiping degenerate duergar that might be connected to a dracolich. There is certainly potential for this to change as one of the adventures show.
As for the Dragon Slayers we are told they never recovered and are now a small obscure cult who lost most of their dragon slaying technology like good sail ships. However as fans we realise that a Council of Wryms campaign lasts over a thousand years, a small human cult could grow into a potent crusading empire again in that time.
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Tim Baker » Thu May 31, 2018 5:50 am

Coronoides wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 10:54 am
Wait, what! Io the dragon god is also god of the human dragons layers? WFT!
Ok usually players might know what follows but ALL the PCs and NPCs in the world don't know!
That's very interesting. I'd never heard that before. You did a nice job of summarizing it.
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Coronoides » Thu May 31, 2018 6:49 am

Regarding Io etc. The sophistication of the setting’s history and the tensions that created is a big attraction for me. In the context of the current discussion the 13th Age Icons mechanic is a great way to tie PCs to these tensions in the setting
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Tim Baker » Thu May 31, 2018 6:54 am

Coronoides wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:49 am
Regarding Io etc. The sophistication of the setting’s history and the tensions that created is a big attraction for me. In the context of the current discussion the 13th Age Icons mechanic is a great way to tie PCs to these tensions in the setting
Is the tension generally generated by conflict between dragon clans? Are the clans represented by (not sure that's the right word?) the three prophets? Would the prophets make good icons?
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Big Mac » Thu May 31, 2018 12:19 pm

Gravesguardian wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:55 am
As I recall from CoW, the Dragon's were all dwelling on a cluster of isles (Io's Isles, I think they were called).
They are called "Io's Blood Islands".
Tim Baker wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 4:05 am
Gravesguardian wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 3:14 am
If you used the dragons from CoW as Icons, then the PC's could play as half-dragon's or demi-human servant/followers of the draconic icons. (That frees up the dragons to be only used as NPC's)
Aren't there 88 clans in CoW? How might this be pared down to a more reasonable list? 13th Age works best with roughly 7-13 icons, including those that are heroic, amgibuous, and evil.
I have a forum topic, called Dragon Clans of Io's Blood Islands that gives you a full list. (Sadly our current problems with the table tag is making the individual posts a bit hard to use.)

If 88 clans is too much for you to handle, then you could drop down to dealing with the 15 dragon races. Or you could pick one clan from each race to work as an icon.

But I got the impression that there was supposed to be some sort of rivalry even between the different clans of the same dragon race.

Maybe you could have some sort of "league" for each dragon type and give individual clans scores over time, so that a clan could loose Icon status to another clan that has risen in standing. :?
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Big Mac » Thu May 31, 2018 12:23 pm

Tim Baker wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:54 am
Coronoides wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:49 am
Regarding Io etc. The sophistication of the setting’s history and the tensions that created is a big attraction for me. In the context of the current discussion the 13th Age Icons mechanic is a great way to tie PCs to these tensions in the setting
Is the tension generally generated by conflict between dragon clans? Are the clans represented by (not sure that's the right word?) the three prophets? Would the prophets make good icons?
I'm not sure if Council of Wyrms is "Game of Thrones...but with dragons", as I am still learning about the setting second-hand, but I think there is supposed to be some rivalry to get power on the Council.

I did see some stuff about the ages of the leaders of each clan. I suspect that older dragons would generally be more respected than younger dragons. But if a clan leader was killed (or died of old age) a younger dragon might end up in charge of a dragon clan. (I'm using the term "younger" in a relative term here. They would still be very old.)
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Coronoides » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:05 am

Tim Baker wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:54 am
Coronoides wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:49 am
Regarding Io etc. The sophistication of the setting’s history and the tensions that created is a big attraction for me. In the context of the current discussion the 13th Age Icons mechanic is a great way to tie PCs to these tensions in the setting
Is the tension generally generated by conflict between dragon clans? Are the clans represented by (not sure that's the right word?) the three prophets? Would the prophets make good icons?
The tension is generated by the constant potential for all-out dragon war. the numerous dragon clans covet each others land and wealth but the Council forbids war between dragon clans. In theory clan resolve disputes through the mediation of the Council or when that fails ritual combat between two champions. The political manoeuvring is intense.
In practice many clans especially chromatic ones engage in covert raids to steal treasure, poach prey, or 'scorched earth' vassal villages on disputed land. All this has to be done beneath the Council's notice or at least without leaving evidence a wronged clan could bring to the Council.

Each of the 88 (? of the top of my head) clans is led by a dragon lord. The prophets are nothing but history though two influential clans are led by the descendants of a prophet. Each Clan is allowed one voting advocate on the Council. That advocate must be at least 1000years old (a wrym). Some newer clans don't have a dragon that old and so have no vote.
Would the prophets make good icons? I don't know enough about 13th age to say. The prophets are gone though, dead and taking no active role in the world. There is a loop hole I suppose given the nature of dragon death (ascension, guardianship, dracolich) but that's something that deserves it's own post if you are interested.
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Tim Baker » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:22 am

Coronoides wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:05 am
Would the prophets make good icons? I don't know enough about 13th age to say. The prophets are gone though, dead and taking no active role in the world. There is a loop hole I suppose given the nature of dragon death (ascension, guardianship, dracolich) but that's something that deserves it's own post if you are interested.
Unless they can "come back" from the dead, as you mentioned, it doesn't sound like they'd make good icons -- at least not of the current age of the setting. 88 icons is too many, though. So I'm not sure if there a good set of icons in the setting as-is. There's an alternative to using icons in 13th Age, and that may be a better fit for CoW, in that case.
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Tim Baker » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:16 am

I just came across the CoW Dragon Gods in this post. Would it be reasonable to cull the list down to, say, 13, and use them as icons? Is there enough conflict within the pantheon? Do the gods have enough influence on the beings of the setting that they have widespread organizations? And would this include all beings, or dragons alone?
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Coronoides » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:25 am

Tim Baker wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:16 am
I just came across the CoW Dragon Gods in this post....? Do the gods have enough influence on the beings of the setting that they have widespread organizations? And would this include all beings, or dragons alone?
A feature of the canon setting is that there are no organised religions and the gods are generally more ‘distant’ than typical settings like Forgetten Realms. Clerics are generally of the slightly odd wandering mystic type. Thier is a religious aspect to the inner circle of the Custodians but they keep it secret. Don’t think the gods will work without deviating away from canon. I have no problem with that.
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Re: [13th Age] How Might CoW Tie in with 13th Age?

Post by Tim Baker » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:50 pm

Coronoides wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:25 am
A feature of the canon setting is that there are no organised religions and the gods are generally more ‘distant’ than typical settings like Forgetten Realms. Clerics are generally of the slightly odd wandering mystic type. Thier is a religious aspect to the inner circle of the Custodians but they keep it secret. Don’t think the gods will work without deviating away from canon. I have no problem with that.
That makes sense. Thanks for explaining!
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