Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

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Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Havard » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:20 pm

They seem a bit on the powerful side, even compared to say Centaurs from the same book.

What do you think?

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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Big Mac » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:56 pm

Maybe they are meant to be more powerful than other creatures.

Do you know what sort of damage minotaurs do on M:tG CCG cards (relative to other creatures)?
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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Havard » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:51 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:56 pm
Maybe they are meant to be more powerful than other creatures.
I'm not super obsessed about game balance, but it is frustrating if one race is just better than all the other PC options.

Do you know what sort of damage minotaurs do on M:tG CCG cards (relative to other creatures)?
No idea. Never played MtG.

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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by willpell » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:50 pm

If we look at some relevant samples of minotaurs (some older, some newer), a fairly consistent picture emerges. (If we look at the complete list of printed Minotaur creatures, at http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Searc ... +[minotaur], we see several exceptions, but most of them exist for specific reasons related to the card set they were printed in; for example the Ordruun Commando's 4/1 is atypically offense-focused, in order to allow for the use of White magic to protect it, in order to reinforce the Ravnica set's emphasis on two-color magic, while the Eternal version of Neheb from Amonkhet is a "super-mummy", so he's far more potent than most minotaurs get unless they've been zombified). The far-and-away most common size for minotaur cards is 2/3, which makes them tougher than bears and even ogres, but weaker than hill giants or elephants; if they're a little overpowered compared to dwarves, dragonborn, lizardfolk, and other melee-spec'ed races, that is pretty consistent. Really, what we need in 5E is something equivalent to the Level Adjustment, Racial Hit Dice, and Effective Character Level mechanics of 3E, something where we can say that a 1st-level Minotaur Barbarian is equivalent to a 2nd-level Human Barbarian. Until we have that, we will have to live with the possibility that some races will just be overpowered compared to others, or else make those races unavailable for the sake of balance.

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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Dread Delgath » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:02 pm

Havard wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:51 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:56 pm
Maybe they are meant to be more powerful than other creatures.
I'm not super obsessed about game balance, but it is frustrating if one race is just better than all the other PC options.

Do you know what sort of damage minotaurs do on M:tG CCG cards (relative to other creatures)?
No idea. Never played MtG.

-Havard
It is frustrating when you have to explain to your players that the majority of characters will not be minotaurs (or, "insert character PC race/class here") in this campaign world, but they will be very rare. Then your gaming group has 3-4 minotaurs (or other over-powered PC types) in it, and they're all so much more powerful than anything else you could throw at (normal) 1st level that nothing is challenging for them.
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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Havard » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:22 pm

Dread Delgath wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:02 pm
It is frustrating when you have to explain to your players that the majority of characters will not be minotaurs (or, "insert character PC race/class here") in this campaign world, but they will be very rare. Then your gaming group has 3-4 minotaurs (or other over-powered PC types) in it, and they're all so much more powerful than anything else you could throw at (normal) 1st level that nothing is challenging for them.
I'm not sure Minotaurs are so over powered in this version, but it is worth taking a look at. Their benefits seem better than the Centaur for instance. However, I also like how Humans gain +1 to all ability scores in this edition (or alternately a feat and two +1s). This makes humans an attractive race compared to many of the other options even though the other races gain various cool abilities.

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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Dread Delgath » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:02 pm

Havard wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:22 pm
Dread Delgath wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:02 pm
It is frustrating when you have to explain to your players that the majority of characters will not be minotaurs (or, "insert character PC race/class here") in this campaign world, but they will be very rare. Then your gaming group has 3-4 minotaurs (or other over-powered PC types) in it, and they're all so much more powerful than anything else you could throw at (normal) 1st level that nothing is challenging for them.
I'm not sure Minotaurs are so over powered in this version, but it is worth taking a look at. Their benefits seem better than the Centaur for instance. However, I also like how Humans gain +1 to all ability scores in this edition (or alternately a feat and two +1s). This makes humans an attractive race compared to many of the other options even though the other races gain various cool abilities.

-Havard
FWIW, I should explain that I haven't looked at Ravnica, or the PC races pdf for Ravnica. My thoughts were based on previous comments that I assumed meant that the minotaur PC race IS overpowered. ;)

My frustration, however, extends to any PC race or class that is overpowered compared to what I'd consider to be 'traditional' or 'core' races & classes.

Of course, my own POV is Gygaxian: humanocentric, and I cleave strongly to the literary trope that assumes that humans are 'normal' in extra-normal circumstances, settings, and with extra-normal beings beside them. That is the sense of newness that never wears off for me.

That is not to say that I do not enjoy playing non-humans, I do. But I consider the other races uncommon or rare compared to humans. It is that rarity that makes them a treat to play. :cool:

I might have to give the Ravnica PDF a look-see, if they have centaurs as a PC race. I've always wondered why centaurs aren't as common as half-orcs - that is on a scale of common to rare:

Human
Dwarf (hill, mountain)
Halfling (stout, hairfoot, etc)
Gnome (rock, forest)
Half-elf
Elf (wood, high)
Centaur
Half-orc
Elf (drow)
Tiefling
Svirfneblin
Aaracockra
Genasi
Aasimar
Gith

I'm not sure where the minotaur would fit just yet. IMC, they are still a monster only race, as are the Gith.
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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by willpell » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:20 pm

Dread Delgath wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:02 pm
that is on a scale of common to rare:
Where do you get this information?

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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Morfie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:43 am

Excuse my ignorance, but isn't MTG basically a card game?

Therefore some cards would be worth more than others. Balance isn't a concern.

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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Havard » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:51 pm

Morfie wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:43 am
Excuse my ignorance, but isn't MTG basically a card game?

Therefore some cards would be worth more than others. Balance isn't a concern.
This forum is dedicated to the D&D version of Magic the Gathering, not the Card Game :)

The Guilds of Ravnica is the first print product by WotC detailing the MtG universe for D&D 5th Edition.

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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Dread Delgath » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:14 pm

willpell wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:20 pm
Dread Delgath wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:02 pm
that is on a scale of common to rare:
Where do you get this information?
My campaign world. I wanted to point out that many players just don't care how rare the DM/campaign creator says that any particular race is, they gonna play it no matter what.

Remember the sea of Drizz't clones a few years back after RA Salvatore's Drizz't series? :lol:
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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Angel Tarragon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:17 pm

How do they compare to the minotaurs of Dragonlance? I've yet to get my hands on the Ravnica books.
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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by timemrick » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:26 pm

Angel Tarragon wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:17 pm
How do they compare to the minotaurs of Dragonlance? I've yet to get my hands on the Ravnica books.
I don't have the Ravnica book, but I assume the minotaurs there are based on the UA article "Centaurs and Minotaurs" from earlier this year. Those stats (and the previous iteration of the minotaur in UA) were designed to work for Krynn minotaurs as well.
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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Angel Tarragon » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:05 am

timemrick wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:26 pm
I don't have the Ravnica book, but I assume the minotaurs there are based on the UA article "Centaurs and Minotaurs" from earlier this year. Those stats (and the previous iteration of the minotaur in UA) were designed to work for Krynn minotaurs as well.
Interesting, I'll have to give those a glance at...it's been awhile since I looked at that UA article.
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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Big Mac » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:13 am

Havard wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:51 pm
Morfie wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:43 am
Excuse my ignorance, but isn't MTG basically a card game?

Therefore some cards would be worth more than others. Balance isn't a concern.
This forum is dedicated to the D&D version of Magic the Gathering, not the Card Game :)

The Guilds of Ravnica is the first print product by WotC detailing the MtG universe for D&D 5th Edition.
Oh sure, this forum isn't for the CCG, but if all the minotaur cards are more powerful in the CCG that might translate to the D&D version having bigger hit dice, bonus hit dice or something of that ilk.
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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Big Mac » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:20 am

willpell wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:50 pm
If we look at some relevant samples of minotaurs (some older, some newer), a fairly consistent picture emerges. (If we look at the complete list of printed Minotaur creatures, at http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Searc ... +[minotaur], we see several exceptions, but most of them exist for specific reasons related to the card set they were printed in; for example the Ordruun Commando's 4/1 is atypically offense-focused, in order to allow for the use of White magic to protect it, in order to reinforce the Ravnica set's emphasis on two-color magic, while the Eternal version of Neheb from Amonkhet is a "super-mummy", so he's far more potent than most minotaurs get unless they've been zombified). The far-and-away most common size for minotaur cards is 2/3, which makes them tougher than bears and even ogres, but weaker than hill giants or elephants; if they're a little overpowered compared to dwarves, dragonborn, lizardfolk, and other melee-spec'ed races, that is pretty consistent. Really, what we need in 5E is something equivalent to the Level Adjustment, Racial Hit Dice, and Effective Character Level mechanics of 3E, something where we can say that a 1st-level Minotaur Barbarian is equivalent to a 2nd-level Human Barbarian. Until we have that, we will have to live with the possibility that some races will just be overpowered compared to others, or else make those races unavailable for the sake of balance.
It's been years since I played the M:tG CCG. I'm struggling to remember what the "X/Y" numbers mean. One was mana used to summon the creature, wasn't it? What is the other number for? Is that using abilities on the card?

Could we compare the amount of land used to summon a creature to the amount of land used to summon some sort of baseline creature (maybe humans) to get an idea of how minotaurs stack up against other creatures?

Would that line up approximately with the "Effective Character Level" calculations that 3rd Edition D&D uses?

Could we look at some known creatures (that exist in the D&D monster manual) to see if the power spread in M:tG cards is similar to the power spread in D&D (and therefore work out if minotaurs are supposed to be more powerful in M:tG cards than they are in D&D)?
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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by willpell » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:00 pm

The X/Y is Power and Toughness. So a 2/3 deals 2 damage to a creature it fights, and is killed if it takes 3 or more damage. The mana used to summon the creature is a third statistic, but is not usually displayed on the card in numerical form, instead using several colored mana icons, and a number for the rest of the cost in "generic" mana.

The mana cost of most minotaurs was 3 or 4, whereas a Grizzly Bear was 2, a Gray Ogre was 3, and a Hill Giant or War Mammoth was 4. However, mana cost is a less useful guideline than Power/Toughness, because there are all manner of card-game concerns that influence how much a card costs to play, and these don't translate to an RPG context as well as the P/T does, since the latter can be thought of as a loose abstraction of actual combat performance (there are still some system glitches, but not as many as with the cost, which very much influences how many cards you have to draw at a rate of 1 per game turn, how many of them are land cards instead of additional creatures, and so forth).

ECL is a similar system abstraction for D&D, so I wouldn't try to convert that one back into a Magic stat either. And very few creatures, other than base animals like the Grizzly Bear, are found both in the Monster Manual and in a functionally identical form as Magic cards. For instance, there's a later card called Runeclaw Bear which is obviously meant to be a normal bear that has been given some sort of magic enhancement, yet it's still got the same card game stats as the Grizzly Bear; the difference is all fluff. But it's enough that if Grizzly Bears didn't exist, we'd never be able to look at Runeclaw Bear and know exactly how it compared to a Brown Bear in D&D stats. Thusly, when there's some creature that has a specific context in MTG, you can't necessarily know what it will turn into in D&D terms, unless you have a lot of very pertinent information that you can collate across both systems.

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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by pawsplay » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:30 am

PCs in D&D are all exceptional and are assumed to be equivalent to each other, regardless of NPC strength. For instance, humans get that +1 to every stat even though NPCs aren't written up that way (taking human as a given for the most part), while rare races like svirfneblin might have to take a feat to get spellcasting abilities equivalent to the standard "monster" version.

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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by Havard » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:49 am

pawsplay wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:30 am
PCs in D&D are all exceptional and are assumed to be equivalent to each other, regardless of NPC strength. For instance, humans get that +1 to every stat even though NPCs aren't written up that way (taking human as a given for the most part), while rare races like svirfneblin might have to take a feat to get spellcasting abilities equivalent to the standard "monster" version.
Agreed. Do you think Minotaurs are detailed in Ravnica are well balanced compared to other PC races?

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Re: Ravnica: Minotaurs overpowered?

Post by pawsplay » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:00 pm

I would peg them at 6/10 just for basic melee utility. In fact, I am perplexed to realize Goring Rush and Hammering Horns aren't compatible, which would otherwise give them a limited version of the Charger feat. The best I can say is that Hammering Horns make them unusually efficient against opponents with Pack Tactics or Martial Advantage. The worst I can say is that they get marginal utility out of Charger or Shield Expert.

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