Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map

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Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map

Postby Zenopus » Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:48 am

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This map is a copy of the 1971 Great Kingdom Map given to Dave Megarry by Dave Arneson at some point in the mid-70s. Megarry recently uncovered it in his files.
A previous version of the same map was shown in a video by Jon Peterson (Playing at the World) a few years ago.

This post has my compiled notes comparing this map to the published WoG Folio setting, and the setting details mentioned in the novel Quag Keep (which Andre Norton wrote based on notes from Gygax):

Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map

I struggled over whether to place this in the Blackmoor or Greyhawk setting forum here, since it really it shows a time period when the two settings were one! I decided to place it here since most of the linked post is dedicated to comparison with the later Greyhawk setting, which I am more familiar with than Blackmoor.

If you are wondering where the City of Greyhawk is on this map, it isn't shown because presumably it hadn't been created when this map was drawn - and also this map doesn't really indicate cities. It would most likely be located near the south corner of the Nyr Dyv, slightly up river.
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Re: Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map

Postby Big Mac » Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:43 am

Zenopus wrote:This map is a copy of the 1971 Great Kingdom Map given to Dave Megarry by Dave Arneson at some point in the mid-70s. Megarry recently uncovered it in his files.
A previous version of the same map was shown in a video by Jon Peterson (Playing at the World) a few years ago.


Very nice! Is this a Castles & Crusades Society map, with Greyhawk being invented on top of it?

Zenopus wrote:This post has my compiled notes comparing this map to the published WoG Folio setting, and the setting details mentioned in the novel Quag Keep (which Andre Norton wrote based on notes from Gygax):

Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map


I still don't have Quag Keep. But I'll have to check out your blog to see what you think about the two versions of the Great Kingdom.

Zenopus wrote:I struggled over whether to place this in the Blackmoor or Greyhawk setting forum here, since it really it shows a time period when the two settings were one! I decided to place it here since most of the linked post is dedicated to comparison with the later Greyhawk setting, which I am more familiar with than Blackmoor.


I put on my moderator hat and added a redirect from the Blackmoor forum to this topic. Hope that helps! :)

I wonder how much of Greyhawk was invented by Dave Arneson. :?

Zenopus wrote:If you are wondering where the City of Greyhawk is on this map, it isn't shown because presumably it hadn't been created when this map was drawn - and also this map doesn't really indicate cities. It would most likely be located near the south corner of the Nyr Dyv, slightly up river.


I need to find another map of Greyhawk that I can look at to compare with this one. (Blinking between the two would be helpful. I've done that before with two browsers each showing a different map of the same area. It helps me spot the differences.)
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Re: Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map

Postby ripvanwormer » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:08 pm

Zenopus wrote:If you are wondering where the City of Greyhawk is on this map, it isn't shown because presumably it hadn't been created when this map was drawn - and also this map doesn't really indicate cities. It would most likely be located near the south corner of the Nyr Dyv, slightly up river.


Quag Keep implies it's in the region marked "Contested Area," south of the hills in the Duchy of Urnst.

Page 30: "To the north lay the Grand Duchy of Urnst, for Greyhawk was clearly marked nearly at the edge of the sheet to his right. Beyond that swelled the Great Kingdom of Blackmoor. To the left, or west, were mountains scattered in broken chains, dividing smaller kingdoms one from the other. Rivers, led by tributaries, formed boundaries for many of these. This cluster of nations ended in such unknown territories as the Dry Steppes which only the Nomad Raiders of Lar dared venture upon (the few watering places therein being hereditary possessions of those clans). Further south was that awesome Sea of Dust from which it was said no expedition, no matter how well equipped, had ever returned, though there were legends concerning its lost and buried ships and the treasures that still might exist within their petrified cargo holds."
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Re: Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map

Postby Havard » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:43 pm

Big Mac wrote:I wonder how much of Greyhawk was invented by Dave Arneson. :?


Well the Great Kingdom is probably more accurately described as a different setting than TSR's Greyhawk.

Gary Gygax drew up the map for the setting and came up with some of the names seen on the map shown in this thread. What this version of the Great Kingdom Map shows better than anything I have seen before is how large an area of the map Dave Arneson's campaign actually covered. I had previously assumed a much smaller area. The large region dedicated to the Egg of Coot is especially surprising. The Paynim Kingdom has a corresponding version in Greyhawk I believe, but it also corresponds well with what later became known as the Afridhi Empire in Blackmoor. For the most part, Dave stuck to the northern part of the map though, while Gygax, Jeff Perren and others played war gaming campaigns on other parts of the map. Dave's campaign was a little weird though because he played in the Twin Cities tradition of involving extensive roleplaying elements in his games. He also came up with the concept of exploring dungeons. I am also not sure of the Great Kingdom setting orginally was supposed to include fantasy elements or not when the map was drawn up.

Back to your question, TSR later decided to use this map as a basis for the published Greyhawk setting, but on the Darlene map many things were clearly changed. Also, Gary Gygax had limited knowledge of what had happened in Dave's campaign and other TSR authors would have known even less.

I do believe that Dave's campaign would have affected Gary's, just as Gary's affected Dave's. Just knowning that other GM's are running games in the same world and reading reports or hearing stories of what has taken place is something that would have had an impact. That is a fascinating aspect of shared campaign settings. But ultimately, the TSR version of Greyhawk also differs quite a bit from Gary's home campaign, so it is hard to say what was brought over. I know a lot more about Dave's campaign than I do about Gary's though. It is fascinating to learn more about these things for sure! :)

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Re: Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:25 am

One thing that surprises me is that I'd always heard that the Duchy of Ten was the province marked 10 on the Great Kingdom map. This map shows Province 10 and the Duchy of Ten to be separate places.
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Re: Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map

Postby Havard » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:39 am

ripvanwormer wrote:One thing that surprises me is that I'd always heard that the Duchy of Ten was the province marked 10 on the Great Kingdom map. This map shows Province 10 and the Duchy of Ten to be separate places.


Yes, I have heard some variants of this story myself. Of course, the numbers of the provinces are written in blue, suggesting they were added by Megarry or Dave? In any case, I think the numbered provinces were never related to the Duchy of Ten. I also think it is now clear that the Duchy of Ten was created by Dave and later used by Gary. The name could come from the ten Dukes (as explained in DA4) or the Ten Mythic Heroes (from the D20 line). I have postulated that the Ran of ah'Foo was the Tenth Duke.

From what I understand the "Duchy of Tehn" as described in various Greyhawk products is probably very different from how it appeared in Dave's campaign. I am curious to whether Gary used this realm in his own games?

It is also interesting that the Duchy of the Peaks is missing from this map.

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Re: Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map

Postby Big Mac » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:15 am

Havard wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I wonder how much of Greyhawk was invented by Dave Arneson. :?


Well the Great Kingdom is probably more accurately described as a different setting than TSR's Greyhawk.

Gary Gygax drew up the map for the setting and came up with some of the names seen on the map shown in this thread. What this version of the Great Kingdom Map shows better than anything I have seen before is how large an area of the map Dave Arneson's campaign actually covered. I had previously assumed a much smaller area. The large region dedicated to the Egg of Coot is especially surprising. The Paynim Kingdom has a corresponding version in Greyhawk I believe, but it also corresponds well with what later became known as the Afridhi Empire in Blackmoor. For the most part, Dave stuck to the northern part of the map though, while Gygax, Jeff Perren and others played war gaming campaigns on other parts of the map. Dave's campaign was a little weird though because he played in the Twin Cities tradition of involving extensive roleplaying elements in his games. He also came up with the concept of exploring dungeons. I am also not sure of the Great Kingdom setting orginally was supposed to include fantasy elements or not when the map was drawn up.


If it isn't quite Greyhawk...and it isn't quite Blackmoor, then it must be something else (Blackhawk? Greymoor? ;) ).

I kind of like Zenopus's description in the OP. It kind of reminds me of some sort of protomatter that explodes in a Big Bang to create both Blackmoor and Greyhawk. :lol:

Havard wrote:Back to your question, TSR later decided to use this map as a basis for the published Greyhawk setting, but on the Darlene map many things were clearly changed. Also, Gary Gygax had limited knowledge of what had happened in Dave's campaign and other TSR authors would have known even less.

I do believe that Dave's campaign would have affected Gary's, just as Gary's affected Dave's. Just knowning that other GM's are running games in the same world and reading reports or hearing stories of what has taken place is something that would have had an impact. That is a fascinating aspect of shared campaign settings. But ultimately, the TSR version of Greyhawk also differs quite a bit from Gary's home campaign, so it is hard to say what was brought over. I know a lot more about Dave's campaign than I do about Gary's though. It is fascinating to learn more about these things for sure! :)


It's almost like the backstory of Abeir-Toril splitting into two different worlds in 4th Edition Forgotten Reaalms canon. ;)
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Re: Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map

Postby Havard » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:03 am

Big Mac wrote:If it isn't quite Greyhawk...and it isn't quite Blackmoor, then it must be something else (Blackhawk? Greymoor? ;) ).

I kind of like Zenopus's description in the OP. It kind of reminds me of some sort of protomatter that explodes in a Big Bang to create both Blackmoor and Greyhawk. :lol:


Yes, one way of looking at it is that it was its own setting called the Great Kingdom. Of course, maybe having a map with some names on it is not really enough to call it a setting. But it was developed into a setting by the gamers who used it, mostly Gary's group and Dave's group. I think Gary was actually amazed at the work Dave had done and the reports he sent to Gary. Unfortunately, Gary's knowledge of what Dave had done was fragmented and limited. Dave developed the setting through many years of play with multiple groups on different days of the week and phone calls from players demanding more. All of this happened before D&D was even published.

But Dave had always assumed that Gary's games took place in the same world as his, just rather far to the south, leaving him free to develop the northern parts of the map as he saw fit.


It's almost like the backstory of Abeir-Toril splitting into two different worlds in 4th Edition Forgotten Reaalms canon. ;)


Sure if you want you could create something like that in your Greyhawk as well, but I am not sure how well it would mesh with existing setting lore.

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Re: Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map

Postby Hunter_Maddox » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:17 am

I'll be creating a fused setting inspired by this map & the other versions of it I found online. I'll redraw the map & place the various Greyhawk realms not already listed on them in the numbered areas. I'll draw it roughly as the maps look but there will likely be distortions and changes to make it look better. I'll also likely start in sections so I can better incorporate details from the Blackmoor map in the Blackmoor Folio & more modern ones. Then I'll work on compiling a modified setting detailing the changes yet I'll do my damnedest to stay as true to the canon lore as possible - where it doesn't conflict with the needed changes.

After my current campaign (which is being ported to Greyhawk ) my next one will be based on the fused Blackmoor/Greyhawk setting; so I have plenty time to finish it. I'll be mining the early adventures & other sources I can find; then fusing them with canon lore. I'll come up with expanded ,ore of the human races rooted in the GH Folio & GH BoxSet; plus the various Blackmoor items I have. Concerning the Blackmoor human races I'll modify them to fit into Greyhawk; the names are going to be local Flan words adopted into the Imperial tongue of the region (such as Thonian = FBo, High Thonian = OSf & Afridhi = Demon worshiping monotheistic mountain dwelling Baklunish tribesmen; while the Peshwah = Flan). Thon would be the Flan term for Oeridians or the Aerdi Tribes, but would also indicate all non-Flan from the west. The Skandaharians = Suloise Barbarians, who dwell in the Skandahar Penisula, north of Blackmoor.
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Re: Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map

Postby JamesMishler » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:59 am

One thing I just noticed...

Those rivers out in the Dry Steppes?

If you make a few adjustments, they are readily transformed into the eastern rivers flowing into the Nyr Dyv... which do not exist on Megarry;s map, but are on the Greyhawk map, in almost the same relative location, though at the center of the Flanaess rather than in the Dry Steppes.

Like so...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bximeq ... sp=sharing
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Re: Megarry's Copy of the Great Kingdom Map

Postby Havard » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:38 pm

JamesMishler wrote:One thing I just noticed...

Those rivers out in the Dry Steppes?

If you make a few adjustments, they are readily transformed into the eastern rivers flowing into the Nyr Dyv... which do not exist on Megarry;s map, but are on the Greyhawk map, in almost the same relative location, though at the center of the Flanaess rather than in the Dry Steppes.

Like so...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bximeq ... sp=sharing


Wow!
Coincidence, or were they moved intentionally? :) :cool:

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