Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

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Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by Big Mac »

Robert Lazzaretti put up a page on his website, the other day, called Fantasy Maps by Robert Lazzaretti.

It has three Blackmoor maps, from the Raiders of the Black Ice article from Dragon Magazine 115.

He also talks about how the maps were made, so if you like his style, you might want to see if you can create something similar.

The Tonnsborg map is something fairly original. It shows you architectural style, as well as the shape of the village.
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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by stebehil »

Thanks for the pointer! But shouldn´t this be posted to the Greyhawk forum?

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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by ripvanwormer »

Yeah, these are Greyhawk's Archbarony of Blackmoor, rather than Dave Arneson's Kingdom of Blackmoor. They're very good maps, though.

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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by Big Mac »

stebehil wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:22 pm
Thanks for the pointer! But shouldn´t this be posted to the Greyhawk forum?
...and...
ripvanwormer wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:34 am
Yeah, these are Greyhawk's Archbarony of Blackmoor, rather than Dave Arneson's Kingdom of Blackmoor. They're very good maps, though.
Really?

Well that's my Blackmoor-fu and Greyhawk-fu failing me.

Thanks for the information. I'll report my topic to a moderator and ask them to move it.

MODERATOR NOTE: Topic moved to Greyhawk forum by Ninja Forum Moderating Giant Space Hamster.
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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by stebehil »

ripvanwormer wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:34 am
They're very good maps, though.
Yes, they are. I dimly remember them from when the Dungeon Magazine #115, October 2004 was the current issue - 15 years ago already! Time is running at full speed, and we are getting slower each year.

EDIT: the Barony of Blackmoor is of course a nod towards Arnesons Blackmoor, so the confusion is understandable.

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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by Icarus »

Big Mac wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:54 am
Well that's my Blackmoor-fu and Greyhawk-fu failing me.
Not really. It's a confusing topic.
When Blackmoor was originally written, it was the same "place" in both Dave Arneson's and Gary Gygax's campaigns. Obviously, they created it together - which is why it's on the even larger scale continental maps by Rob Lazaretti (from which that is an excerpt).

But, in later years, the Blackmoor setting -which was specifically Dave's IP and not WotC's, was published by Dave as "Dave Arneson's Blackmoor", separating it, and making it distinct from the one that was *technically* in the World of Greyhawk.
Some people do their best to reconcile them both, and still use Dave's version in a Greyhawk game, but, strictly speaking even though they're both Blackmoor, they're pretty largely different.
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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by Dread Delgath »

Fantastic maps! :mrgreen:

It gets even more mind boggling when you realize that Blackmoor also resides in Mystara's ancient history.

The only reconciliation I can fall back on at this point is to claim that the Twin Cataclysms (Invoked Devastation and Rain of Colorless Fire) were aptly named, as it sundered one shared campaign world into several timelines and dimensions for play.

...But I don't think that Gygax and Arneson created their campaign worlds "together", I believe that Dave created Blackmoor concurrently with Gary's Greyhawk, and upon meeting and playing together, decided that both campaigns could inhabit the same world and made plans to not blatantly contradicting each other's campaign territories - thus the eventual "Blackmoor" entry in the first published Greyhawk Folio was just a reference (a footnote, really) to Blackmoor existing, but not gone into any detail - as that was Dave's backyard, and not Gary's tale to tell.

Rather than having a blank space where Blackmoor exists, however, Gary created this "alternate" Blackmoor realm for his published Greyhawk campaign setting. Players in the published Greyhawk setting could still travel to the GH version of Blackmoor, but they'd never get into the real Blackmoor unless they played in Dave's game - or until the BECM "DA" series of modules were published a few years later - and individual DMs could supplant the GH version of Blackmoor with the DA Blackmoor.

The problem then comes with reconciling the scale differences; the amount of land in the GH Blackmoor was vastly smaller than the DA version of Blackmoor. The DM was then forced to replace a lot of square acreage in GH to accurately place Blackmoor there, or simply declare a "flux in the space/time continuum" and when GH players journeyed to the Land of Black Ice, they were magically transported to the DA Blackmoor with or without realizing that they'd never left the GH map.

Or something like that. :cool:
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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by ripvanwormer »

Dave Arneson's Blackmoor campaign predates Gary Gygax's Greyhawk campaign. Arneson's campaign began in April 1971. Gygax sat in on one of Arneson's games in late 1972, took notes, and went home to make his own version, beginning a campaign in early 1973.

As for explaining in the context of the game universe why both Mystara and Oerth have Blackmoors, Wrath of the Immortals says that Khoronus founded a colony on another world in order to preserve some of his people from a coming disaster.

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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by Icarus »

Dread Delgath wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:55 pm
...But I don't think that Gygax and Arneson created their campaign worlds "together", I believe that Dave created Blackmoor concurrently with Gary's Greyhawk, and upon meeting and playing together, decided that both campaigns could inhabit the same world ...Or something like that. :cool:
Delglath … yep. I'm pretty sure you're spot on.
When I said, "they created it together", the "it" I was referring to was the GH-version of Blackmoor. Because they played together, and Gary included it in both his home game and the published GH.
Dave definitely made Blackmoor before it became a GH-version.

Your longer explanation is much more accurate and descriptive than my brief version.
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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by Dread Delgath »

Icarus wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:15 pm
Dread Delgath wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:55 pm
...But I don't think that Gygax and Arneson created their campaign worlds "together", I believe that Dave created Blackmoor concurrently with Gary's Greyhawk, and upon meeting and playing together, decided that both campaigns could inhabit the same world ...Or something like that. :cool:
Delglath … yep. I'm pretty sure you're spot on.
When I said, "they created it together", the "it" I was referring to was the GH-version of Blackmoor. Because they played together, and Gary included it in both his home game and the published GH.
Dave definitely made Blackmoor before it became a GH-version.

Your longer explanation is much more accurate and descriptive than my brief version.
:oops: Aww, shucks, man! I only mean to fill in a few gaps. ;)

ripvanwormer's is even more accurate! :ugeek: My knowledge mostly relies on the first published versions of GH & DA series of Blackmoor modules and by comparing the two campaign settings side-by-side - many, many years ago.

For example: (and this might be going off on a tangent, but I think it's key to understanding why there are two different versions of Blackmoor...) IIRC, the DA Blackmoor mentions "Twin Cataclysms", but WoG definitely has "Invoked Devastation and Rain of Colorless Fire" - which in my mind ARE the Twin Cataclysms mentioned in the other setting. They are linked historically, and I think it is important to note the differences - not just for cross-campaign purposes for individual DMs, but for Real World historical purposes in understanding the hows & whys that they became two separate and distinct products, as that gives us valuable insight to each setting.
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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by Icarus »

You know, honestly, I wish there were a really good article or something to reconcile the two versions.
I think people would love that.
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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by Dread Delgath »

Icarus wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:41 pm
You know, honestly, I wish there were a really good article or something to reconcile the two versions.
I think people would love that.
Agreed. As long as there are different options for reconciling the differences, to facilitate more than one way to do it, because what works in my campaign wouldn't work for someone else's and vice versa.
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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by Lord Zack »

If Blackmoor appears in my current Greyhawk campaign it will be a Kingdom of Blackmoor, more highly based on Dave's version. The location will also be changed, to approximately where Ratik is in Canon Greyhawk.

Of course that raises the question of what to put in place of the Archbarony of Blackmoor...

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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by ripvanwormer »

Lord Zack wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:10 pm
If Blackmoor appears in my current Greyhawk campaign it will be a Kingdom of Blackmoor, more highly based on Dave's version. The location will also be changed, to approximately where Ratik is in Canon Greyhawk.

Of course that raises the question of what to put in place of the Archbarony of Blackmoor...
I put the Wilderlands over there.

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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by Havard »

ripvanwormer wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:42 am
Lord Zack wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:10 pm
Of course that raises the question of what to put in place of the Archbarony of Blackmoor...
I put the Wilderlands over there.

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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

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Havard wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:46 am
Wow! Did you make this map Rip? Very cool!
Yes, I made it. Thank you!

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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by Lord Zack »

Looks cool, though I rather like Western Oerik myself. Though I suppose you could add Western Oerik on the other side of the Wilderlands.

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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

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Lord Zack wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:44 pm
… I rather like Western Oerik myself. …
This. … SO this.
(Though it may be an unpopular opinion!) :lol:

I have a pet-project of sorts that I've been working on illustrating for a good long while. It does include the GH-version of Blackmoor by Lazzaretti, but, it also details Western Oerik, and includes both the ancient kingdoms and more modern factions of Western Oerik.
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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by Raymond »

I understand there are three or four versions of Blackmoor. Blackmoor was set in the Judge's Guild world with the First Fantasy Campaign product. Later, it was released independently so you could argue it's last iteration was based on a separate world than Mystara, Greyhawk, or Wilderlands.

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Re: Robert Lazzaretti's Blackmoor maps

Post by Icarus »

Raymond wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:02 pm
I understand there are three or four versions of Blackmoor. Blackmoor was set in the Judge's Guild world with the First Fantasy Campaign product. Later, it was released independently so you could argue it's last iteration was based on a separate world than Mystara, Greyhawk, or Wilderlands.
That's entirely correct, Raymond.
There's only "sort of" been a Greyhawk version of Blackmoor, but, you're not wrong.
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