Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

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Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by GMWestermeyer » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:43 pm

On the map that is part of the OJ#1 article on Keoland there is a 'Bale Keep' near Saltmarsh's location.

Was this described or detailed anywhere else? I've had no luck finding info on it.

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:58 pm

Jason Zavoda's index only references the Living Greyhawk Journal #1 in its Bale Keep entry.

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by GMWestermeyer » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:35 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Jason Zavoda's index only references the Living Greyhawk Journal #1 in its Bale Keep entry.

So it's just a throw away map entry. Bummer.

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:03 pm

The LGJ #1 mentions it on pages 16,17,19,and 33. There's no map or anything, though. I checked some of the modules set in the area and couldn't see any reference to an unnamed keep that it might be identified with.

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by Big Mac » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:11 am

GMWestermeyer wrote:On the map that is part of the OJ#1 article on Keoland there is a 'Bale Keep' near Saltmarsh's location.
I can't see that map in Oerth Journal 1. Was the map a separate file, that I might have put somewhere else? :?
GMWestermeyer wrote:Was this described or detailed anywhere else? I've had no luck finding info on it.
An Obsidian Portal website, called Across the Sheldomar Valley, has a page about Bale Keep. (Sadly, they do not citate their sources.)

They also have a map of Southern Keoland, that includes Bale Keep. I'm not sure if it is the same map as the one you are talking about.

The GM is called cahill1102. Maybe someone with an Obsidian Portal account can ask him/her.
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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by Icarus » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:17 pm

Big Mac wrote:
GMWestermeyer wrote:On the map that is part of the OJ#1 article on Keoland there is a 'Bale Keep' near Saltmarsh's location.
I can't see that map in Oerth Journal 1. Was the map a separate file, that I might have put somewhere else? :?
GMWestermeyer wrote:Was this described or detailed anywhere else? I've had no luck finding info on it.
An Obsidian Portal website, called Across the Sheldomar Valley, has a page about Bale Keep. (Sadly, they do not citate their sources.)
They also have a map of Southern Keoland, that includes Bale Keep. I'm not sure if it is the same map as the one you are talking about.
The GM is called cahill1102. Maybe someone with an Obsidian Portal account can ask him/her.
That is most distinctly *not* the map from LGJ#1. I must presume then, that <ahem> your hard-copy issue of the magazine is <ahem> missing the back cover. It's on the inside back cover of the issue, and is a full page map.

I would post a scan of the map, as I have the issue, but, I'm not sure how much that falls into Fair Use. It was sent out for free, and was used in a public game, but, I don't know if the image itself would be okay to share.
I'll see if anyone has objections to such, and if not, I will scan the map in the near future.
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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by GMWestermeyer » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:32 pm

Big Mac wrote:
GMWestermeyer wrote:On the map that is part of the OJ#1 article on Keoland there is a 'Bale Keep' near Saltmarsh's location.
I can't see that map in Oerth Journal 1. Was the map a separate file, that I might have put somewhere else? :?
I miss spoke, I meant LGJ#1. :) Which I have both electronically and in paper. :)

I was hoping Bale Keep was from some obscure module. :)

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by ripvanwormer » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:36 pm

Icarus wrote:I would post a scan of the map, as I have the issue, but, I'm not sure how much that falls into Fair Use.
It doesn't fall under Fair Use, and it's unnecessary because you can download both the map and the accompanying article for free on WotC's website here.

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by Icarus » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:27 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:It doesn't fall under Fair Use, and it's unnecessary because you can download both the map and the accompanying article for free on WotC's website here.
I kind of thought it wouldn't.
Great link! That's awesome!
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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by ripvanwormer » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:53 pm

There was an expanded version of Saltmarsh in the 3rd edition Dungeon Master's Guide II. It didn't get a great reception from the Greyhawk community as a whole; James Jacobs massively increased the size and population from the small fishing town described in the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh to a large town with massive cathedrals constructed in the time since the events of the original U-series. The original Saltmarsh was intended to be styled like a "small south-coast English fishing town of the 14th century" but James Jacobs' 3rd edition Saltmarsh is a place of Disneyesque extravagance.

But I wonder if Bale Keep could be the same thing as one of the towers depicted as part of Saltmarsh in the DMG II. The Hoolwatch Tower described there could have been outside the city limits in 576 CY, as might have been the Saltmarsh Barracks and Oak Island Keep.

I'm tempted to just use the eastern part of the DMG II map, the portion east of the Kingfisher River, to represent 576 CY Saltmarsh with a single nearby tower to represent Bale Keep. By 595 CY the town has expanded to the boundaries portrayed in the DMG II, incorporating the keep into it.
Last edited by ripvanwormer on Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by night_druid » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:04 am

I have a feeling Paul lacks the 3e DMG II...;)

I'd recommend just picking a castle-based adventure from Dungeon magazine, rename it Bale Keep, and drop it in that spot.
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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by vestcoat » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:28 am

Too bad Atari had to get all fancy spelling "Baele" Castle in the XBOX game or we could have called Baele Castle and Bale Keep one and the same. The video game could have fleshed out the LG site and LG could have canonized the game.

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by ripvanwormer » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:45 am

night_druid wrote:I'd recommend just picking a castle-based adventure from Dungeon magazine, rename it Bale Keep, and drop it in that spot.
An obvious possibility is the castle from B2 Keep on the Borderlands. The nearby fens and Mound of the Lizard Men make it a particularly appropriate choice. The river on the B2 map could be the Dunwater. The (Bale) Keep on the Borderlands and the Caves of Chaos would both be on the eastern side of the river.

It could be Last House from Monstrous Arcana: Evil Tide by Bruce Cordell, or Beacon House or a watchtower from the same module, and Angleburg makes for a decent Saltmarsh.

Or you could use both, basing Saltmarsh on Angleburg and including the Keep on the Borderlands as a separate place on the edge of civilization. The Lake House from Evil Tide could be the same as the Haunted House from U1.

As long as I'm doing this, here are some possible other adventures to use in expanding Saltmarsh:

GA1 The Murky Deep. Whitton is Saltmarsh, Desarius is Delleb or Boccob (Boccob if you're using the DMG II), and Manannan Mac Lir is Osprem.
GA2 Swamplight. Chala is Saltmarsh. Tefnut is Osprem (who should possibly replace Pelor in the DMG II, since the goddess of sea voyages would logically be more important to a fishing town than the god of the sun).

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by GMWestermeyer » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:34 am

This is for My Classics AD&D PBEM game. The game is devoted to B1 In Search of the Unknown, B2 Keep on the Borderlands, L1 Secret of Bone Hill, L2 The Assassin's Knot, U1 Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, U2 Danger at Dunwater, and U3 The Final Enemy. I made a few changes, to keep old hands on their toes, and I fit B1, B2, L1, and L2 into the U series region.

Map here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/100219379 ... ed-public/

The game has been going on for a few years, the players just finished clearing out B1. The game is set in Patchwall (October) 589 CY.

Since it appears Bale Keep isn't attached to any specific module, and in keeping with the campaign theme, I'll just use the Haunted Keep from the Basic D&D boxed set.

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by night_druid » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:30 pm

GMWestermeyer wrote:Since it appears Bale Keep isn't attached to any specific module, and in keeping with the campaign theme, I'll just use the Haunted Keep from the Basic D&D boxed set.
You did see the module they wrote for that one, right? The one with a metric ton of gold and magic items being guarded by a war party of five kobolds, right? :mrgreen:
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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by GMWestermeyer » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:18 am

night_druid wrote:
GMWestermeyer wrote:Since it appears Bale Keep isn't attached to any specific module, and in keeping with the campaign theme, I'll just use the Haunted Keep from the Basic D&D boxed set.
You did see the module they wrote for that one, right? The one with a metric ton of gold and magic items being guarded by a war party of five kobolds, right? :mrgreen:
5 of Tucker's Kobolds, IIRC. :twisted:

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by GMWestermeyer » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:03 pm

GMWestermeyer wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:43 pm
On the map that is part of the LGJ#1 article on Keoland there is a 'Bale Keep' near Saltmarsh's location.

Was this described or detailed anywhere else? I've had no luck finding info on it.

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by GMWestermeyer » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:34 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:45 am
An obvious possibility is the castle from B2 Keep on the Borderlands. The nearby fens and Mound of the Lizard Men make it a particularly appropriate choice. The river on the B2 map could be the Dunwater. The (Bale) Keep on the Borderlands and the Caves of Chaos would both be on the eastern side of the river.
The more I look at what is written in LGJ#1, the more I'm convinced that was the intention. I wish they had spelled it out more clearly. You'd probably have to invert wilderness map but it would clearly work.

Unfortunately, I've already placed the Keep from B2 in my Salinmoor campaign area. :(
GMWestermeyer wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:34 am
Since it appears Bale Keep isn't attached to any specific module, and in keeping with the campaign theme, I'll just use the Haunted Keep from the Basic D&D boxed set.
This doesn't work either, it is clearly still inhabited.

So, any suggestions for a pre-designed keep to place here? Something like the B2 keep or smaller? Held by a garrison. Something Dragon or Dungeon would be fine, or a published adventure. :)

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by vestcoat » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:26 pm

GMWestermeyer wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:34 pm
So, any suggestions for a pre-designed keep to place here? Something like the B2 keep or smaller? Held by a garrison. Something Dragon or Dungeon would be fine, or a published adventure. :)
I mentioned this a few years ago, but I would use Castle Baele from the Greyhawk-lite xbox game D&D Heroes. It's only semi-inhabited in the video game, but that could depict an earlier or later period in the campaign. There's an old hint book with complete maps. Like Bale Keep, it borders a swamp. It's got a huge Temple of Pelor and the D&D-iconic character Lidda hangs out there. She also appears in Scourge of Worlds in the Dreadwood, so this would give her a second link to the region.

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by ripvanwormer » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:21 pm

"Incident at Strathern Point" from Dungeon #21 might work if you put a small river (i.e. the Dunwater) nearby.

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Re: Bale Keep, near Saltmarsh?

Post by GMWestermeyer » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:49 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:21 pm
"Incident at Strathern Point" from Dungeon #21 might work if you put a small river (i.e. the Dunwater) nearby.
Not really a military garrison and too small.

I ran that for one of my groups a couple decades ago, good adventure.

But thank you! I probably will need to comb Dunegon magazine to find what i need

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