Against the Giants, Queen of Spiders - what happens with no heroes??

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kevperrine
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Against the Giants, Queen of Spiders - what happens with no heroes??

Post by kevperrine » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:50 am

Against the Giants, Queen of Spiders - what happens with no heroes??

In my Greyhawk campaign, set 1-2 years following Greyhawk War, PCs are now 12th level.
They originally saw the "opening" of the taking of Geoff, starting with Hochoch.... they chose to run and find more power to go back and stop the giants!

They have since befriended Robilar, talked with Rary, KILLED Mordenkainen (and taken his place with a deal with Grazat!), and now seek to rampage Mordy's Obsidian Citadel for magic, gear, wealth and info. Perhaps adventuring to the fabled City of the Gods for unbelievable mech-tech-magics - to truly return and face giants and Lloth!!


So.... in the months and years after the Greyhawk War as the Giant's "ordnjng" has been broken.... What do the villains DO as they continue plots with no "heroes" stepping in as they start the campaign?!?!!

Currently the PCs know Geoff, Bissell and Sterch are taken by Giant-kind. No armies or other men have gone to stop them.
Who might??
Individual heroes?
Heroic Companies or Factions?
Kingdoms or rulers?


What happens as the world moves without the PCs caring to help, yet.....?!!!

kevperrine
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Re: Against the Giants, Queen of Spiders - what happens with no heroes??

Post by kevperrine » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:17 am

This is a great reply given on another forum! Anyone???
salamanca;21827774 wrote:A different group of PCs takes on the problem, rises the power, thwarts evil and gains the love of the nations. (And they gather enough XP to block your players).
That's exactly not what i want or think would happen. This is the PC's story, if they make such a decision.... then the world advances and they must deal with ramifications of their choices.


salamanca;21827774 wrote: Or it gets progressively worse. The drow expand to the point it is near impossible to enter the underdark even with great magic. Tiamat nests in Greyhawk city. The heroes will need to journey to the lowest level of castle Greyhawk, come out on the there side of the world and come home the long way to build an army strong enough to take anything back. All the way dealing with upstart underlings looking to supplant them, fearful locals assuming they are being invaded, years of logistics to sort out. And yes we evil cleric whoade it personal and married off all their wives while they have been gone... to demons and mindflayers.

I'd like to explore your ideas here and ask for more!!
salamanca;21827774 wrote: It gets progressively worse.
Yes!
And i am looking for more hows and whys.
I would like to explore and lay out a 1-2 year progression timeline of what exactly goes wrong. On big "stop the bad guys levels" but also in smaller or diseperate locations, our factions or just how the people of different areas of the realms evolve to deal with things (the giant incursions and the changes factions and governments make/take to deal with them!)

salamanca;21827774 wrote: The drow expand to the point it is near impossible to enter the underdark even with great magic.
Hmmmmm...
This one is curious!
And my favorite plot to evolve - Lloth!!!
How and more importantly why?
What's the (an evolved?) Overall PLAN of outcome for the Drow in pushing/convincing the giants to invade?
What is the end goal of the "Spider Queen" modules? And what evolves with this new state of the realms...?


salamanca;21827774 wrote: Tiamat nests in Greyhawk city.
In my timeline the D&D5 adventure for the Rise of Tiamat ALREADY HAPPENED 10 years ago. So "some other" PC group stopped that. But nothing's saying she couldn't come back or evolve that story (i have not detailed, other than saying it was thwarted).


salamanca;21827774 wrote: The heroes will need to journey to the lowest level of castle Greyhawk, come out on the there side of the world and come home the long way to build an army strong enough to take anything back.

I really dig the idea of exploring Castle Greyhawk.
Are you thinking this as a need for the Tiamat storyljne?
Or the Drow & Giant story?

I could see either. I clearly like and want to explore this for the Lloth plots most!!

salamanca;21827774 wrote: All the way dealing with upstart underlings looking to supplant them, fearful locals assuming they are being invaded, years of logistics to sort out. And yes we evil cleric whoade it personal and married off all their wives while they have been gone... to demons and mindflayers.
Wow. Neat.
I would like to expand greatly on these topics.
I love describing the EFFECTS that happen for the world and communities and factions, to show the PCs what they caused and beyond!

Any details expanded on those several topics or others??
salamanca;21827774 wrote: Really, they should have just attacked the Giants.
Ha!
I think they're starting to see this.

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Re: Against the Giants, Queen of Spiders - what happens with no heroes??

Post by Khedrac » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:21 am

If they failed to stop the GDQ series then the "bubble" over Sterich should be slowly expanding until the entire world is pulled into the Abyss. At this point pretty much all the other evil powers will realise that Lolth outflanked them... I would think that anyone entering the bubble enters an area controlled by the drow (where the sun don't shine). Depending on how long this takes, the vault of the drow will becoming increasingly tougher as a route to take to Lolth's home and they could be forced into trying to make it through the Abyss from the front door. Whilst it may be easier to get into Lloth's layer, they may not find it possible to stop Lloth going in that way...
"If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it might just be a crow".

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Re: Against the Giants, Queen of Spiders - what happens with no heroes??

Post by kevperrine » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:55 pm

Khedrac wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:21 am
If they failed to stop the GDQ series then the "bubble" over Sterich should be slowly expanding until the entire world is pulled into the Abyss. At this point pretty much all the other evil powers will realise that Lolth outflanked them... I would think that anyone entering the bubble enters an area controlled by the drow (where the sun don't shine). Depending on how long this takes, the vault of the drow will becoming increasingly tougher as a route to take to Lolth's home and they could be forced into trying to make it through the Abyss from the front door. Whilst it may be easier to get into Lloth's layer, they may not find it possible to stop Lloth going in that way...
Wow Khedrac, great post and insight.
I wish to know more of YOUR theory on that "bubble" expanding, any detail ideas for the subjugation and movements of Giants and Drow would rock.
That said...
I may not be that far along in timeline.
I am looking at those two Module series and figuring out a rough guestimate timeline on how things would play out in stages on the monthly clock of Greyhawk.
I am not sure how far along it would be with local armies and resistance to the Giants (just not a small PC strike team going in to solve!)

And then how soon would Lloth and the Drow push in to become known?

Any ideas?

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Re: Against the Giants, Queen of Spiders - what happens with no heroes??

Post by ripvanwormer » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:32 pm

One thing that really intrigues me about Gary Gygax's lower planar design is the rivalries and factions he created. Lolth's arch-rival is Zuggtmoy, who is allied with Iuz and his mother Iggwilv. Perhaps while the PCs are dithering, Zuggtmoy and Iuz are sending troops to Lolth's Demonweb in an attempt to check her influence.

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Re: Against the Giants, Queen of Spiders - what happens with no heroes??

Post by kevperrine » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:50 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:32 pm
One thing that really intrigues me about Gary Gygax's lower planar design is the rivalries and factions he created. Lolth's arch-rival is Zuggtmoy, who is allied with Iuz and his mother Iggwilv. Perhaps while the PCs are dithering, Zuggtmoy and Iuz are sending troops to Lolth's Demonweb in an attempt to check her influence.
OKAY ripvanwormer!!
Fantastic idea. You or anyone able to help fleshing that direction out?

My reason its so awesome is that we have been hinting that the entire Giant invasion was an interesting alliance mix with Mordenkainen of the Circle of 8 with the Giants (and/or Lolth and the Drow!).... the reason, Mordenkainen saw no armies/kingdomes truly preparing for Iuz and A NEW RISE of the Temple of Elemental Evil!
So, balance must be made!!
The Circle's founder idea was balance of power, so using another massive threat (giant invasion) to rally Kings was his secret solution...

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Re: Against the Giants, Queen of Spiders - what happens with no heroes??

Post by vestcoat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:01 pm

The Valley of the Mage is criminally underused and in close proximity. As the giants and drow expand their influence, things will eventually come to a head with the Black One.

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Re: Against the Giants, Queen of Spiders - what happens with no heroes??

Post by Icarus » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:46 pm

kevperrine wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:17 am
This is a great reply given on another forum! Anyone???
salamanca;21827774 wrote:A different group of PCs takes on the problem, rises the power, thwarts evil and gains the love of the nations. (And they gather enough XP to block your players).
That's exactly not what i want or think would happen. This is the PC's story, if they make such a decision.... then the world advances and they must deal with ramifications of their choices.
salamanca;21827774 wrote: It gets progressively worse.
Yes!
And i am looking for more hows and whys.
The difficulty in this situation is that it's not -even remotely- "the PC's story". They already told you what they'd rather do, and by your posts, you seem to want to force them to do what you want to do.
Essentially, you're saying that you want the players to have to play Against the Giants. You don't want to tell a story where the players are doing anything else.
Personally, I think that there's thousands of other adventurers who were doing stuff whilst that historical stuff was going on in Geoff/Sterich.
Why not let your players be some of those adventurers if they want to? As Salamanca points out, it's just as likely, if actually not more likely in my opinion, that other adventurers already more powerful than your players would take on the threat directly, and more immediately. They're not the only important or able people in the world.

It sounds to me more like you want to run some kind of apocalypse where the world is all going to shit and blame the PCs for it, for not following your storyline. And -please pay attention to this part- there's nothing wrong with that.
But, the players ought to have a choice in what they want to do in the game. It's a cooperative game, and if they don't want to go after giants and drow, then you kind of have a social obligation to play with your friends in a game where they get to do things they want, and not be railroaded into your choices.
But, hey, like I said ... if you want a world that's going to crap, there's nothing wrong with that. That's what the Greyhawk wars boxed set, even! There's nothing wrong with blowing up the world. But, I'm just saying - if you want the world to turn into a portal to the Abyss ... don't blame the PCs for it, and say that it's their fault for not stopping it.
Just say that you want that to be the story in the first place, and see if they like it.
salamanca;21827774 wrote: Really, they should have just attacked the Giants.
kevperrine wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:17 am
Ha!
I think they're starting to see this.
THIS is pretty much the definition of railroading and poor cooperative play.
But, like I said ... there's nothing wrong with what you are doing, if your friends want to play with you doing it.
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Re: Against the Giants, Queen of Spiders - what happens with no heroes??

Post by Tellerian Hawke » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:01 pm

In my campaign, which is a play-by-post that I am currently running on ENWorld, the PCs blundered into the scenario. They wanted to explore the village of Skorane (near Dyvers), which was rumored to be haunted. They found a hidden Drow outpost in a cavern underneath the town's dried-up well, and stepped onto a teleportation circle without knowing where it went... LOL. They found themselves in a canyon, about 5 miles away from the Hill Giant Steading. Now, they're neck deep in Giant blood, fighting it out, tooth-and-claw in the Great Feast Hall. They almost sneaked back out of the Steading without fighting, but the party's leader heard the screams of Demihuman prisoners being tortured and killed, and that sealed the deal. He rushed into the feast hall to save the remaining three prisoners from being roasted alive on Nosnra's rotisserie.

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Re: Against the Giants, Queen of Spiders - what happens with no heroes??

Post by Tellerian Hawke » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:12 pm

But to answer your other question, what happens when the PC ignore hooks? I run what I like to call a "living world," where things happen according to a logical course of action; the BBEG and his cronies have plans and goals, which I have thought out beforehand, and plotted the course of their completion. I make a calendar, and I write things like: "Patchwall 5, CY963: Dame Clare finishes building the Iron Golem." (My campaign is not canon--I'm on a far-advanced, modified timeline) If the PCs don't do things to prevent these events from happening, they happen. Period. Then, when I get to something like, "Sunsebb 13, CY963: Dame Clare's minions take over the town of so-and-so and kill all the inhabitants, to the last man," and the PCs don't stop it, I roll 1d4. That many weeks later (for example, let's say I rolled a 1), during downtime at a local tavern, they hear someone say, "Did you hear about the town of so-and-so? It was burned to the ground last week by marauding Drow!" ---and then they realize that they had the chance, three weeks ago, to have stopped it, but didn't. Consequences. Plain and simple.

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Re: Against the Giants, Queen of Spiders - what happens with no heroes??

Post by Icarus » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:00 pm

Tellerian Hawke wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:12 pm
But to answer your other question, what happens when the PC ignore hooks? I run what I like to call a "living world," ... Consequences. Plain and simple.
... that's all well and good. And I agree, a "living world", as you call it, is a good thing.
But, I didn't ask any questions, other than the rhetorical "Why not let your players be some of those adventurers if they want to? I made a statement of my opinion. So, if your answer to that question is, "Because that's the style of campaign I run!" There's a whole other set of issues.

Anyway - when you literally state that you don't want to use what is likely to be the most logical scenario, in favor of one that blames the PCs for destroying the world, while you're here -literally- trying to get help destroying the world ... that's not just a "living" world.
Consequences? What happens if there aren't any? Do you think Mordenkainen would let Drow bring the Abyss to Oerth, and take over the world?
If they don't want to do it, assume someone else does, and move on to a storyline that they enjoy.

But, hey, like I said - if you're enjoying it, and your players are, too ... more power to you.
I'm just saying - call a fig a fig, and a trough a trough.
You don't want "consequences" ... you're wanting to bring down Hell on Oerth for the PCs telling you they didn't want to follow a plot hook.

But, tell you what ... two posts of mine have already hijacked your thread enough. And for that, I apologize.
PM me if you'd like to discuss it further. There's literally no sense in continuing this rabbit trail in the thread.
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