Greyhawk Webcomic

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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby mortellan » Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:58 am

That was a good read, Hugin. I guess I never noticed because I was so entrenched in GH. Back then DL was the cash cow-tie in machine and not FR? Huh.
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby mortellan » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:11 am

http://www.greyhawkonline.com/wogcomic/title/wogstrip296a.htm

Can you name the movie I parodied dialogue from?
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby ripvanwormer » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:12 pm

Normally sites from the Prime Material Plane are copied by the Dark Powers, not brought over wholesale. Vecna's Citadel Cavitius remained left behind on the Quasielemental Plane of Ash even after a version of it appeared in the Demiplane of Dread. Likewise, Castle Ravenloft still exists on the plane Strahd is from (and this "real" Castle Ravenloft is visited by the PCs during the adventure Roots of Evil.

I think the Dark Powers have the option of dragging landmarks across the planes if they really want to, but they seldom take this option.

And yes, "mansion in Greyhawk City" narrows it down considerably.
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby Dread Delgath » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:11 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Normally sites from the Prime Material Plane are copied by the Dark Powers, not brought over wholesale. Vecna's Citadel Cavitius remained left behind on the Quasielemental Plane of Ash even after a version of it appeared in the Demiplane of Dread. Likewise, Castle Ravenloft still exists on the plane Strahd is from (and this "real" Castle Ravenloft is visited by the PCs during the adventure Roots of Evil.

I think the Dark Powers have the option of dragging landmarks across the planes if they really want to, but they seldom take this option.

And yes, "mansion in Greyhawk City" narrows it down considerably.


I've never thought of them as "copies", but the Mists swallow them completely, removing them from their home plane & replacing that area with Mist. So when travelers go to that locale, they encounter the Mist, but not the actual locale. The Mist then transports the travelers to that locale - now residing in the Demi-Plane of Dread.

If there were "copies", then there would be (at least) two Castle Ravenlofts; one in its home plane & another in the Demi-Plane of Dread. Two sets of PCs could then explore both Ravenlofts simultaneously without ever encountering each other - BUT there would be two Strahds! This seems illogical, even for a fantasy RPG. :?
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby ripvanwormer » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:04 pm

Dread Delgath wrote:If there were "copies", then there would be (at least) two Castle Ravenlofts; one in its home plane & another in the Demi-Plane of Dread.


There is. See Roots of Evil for more details. There are also two Citadels Cavitius. I don't know for a fact that this is always what happens, however.

BUT there would be two Strahds!


Well, no. Strahd himself was sucked bodily into Ravenloft (not copied). However, descendants of the Von Zorovich clan (King Barov and Queen Kristiana, both lawful good) still rule in the Prime Material Plane's version of Castle Ravenloft. From their perspective, strange mists appeared in the castle and every living inhabitant vanished, but the castle itself remained. The current ruler of that alternate Castle Ravenloft, King Barov von Zarovich VI, happens to be the near-perfect twin of his distant relative, Strahd. He's not a vampire, though, and he's a little more aged in appearance.
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby mortellan » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:13 am

Great discussion guys. Well in the situation of my comic the cultists were in Bissel when the Mists snagged them, but weren't anywhere special. I had the DP's create/grab them the Forgotten Temple as a home base. Yet as this is a remote mountain lair, so solve for me: the surrounding human 'populace' must be either A) Perrenlanders, B) Bisselites or C) genericized Ravenloft humans.
The last one is something I wonder about. If the domains are copied are all the people in the DoD real then? Castle RL's inhabitants and staff vanishing I can see, but the entire population of Barovia? That would be a little more noticeable back home.
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby ripvanwormer » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:52 pm

mortellan wrote:The last one is something I wonder about. If the domains are copied are all the people in the DoD real then?


That's where we get into philosophical territory. What is "real?" They're self-aware (in that they can be PCs), and effectively real as far as anyone in the Demiplane of Dread is concerned. If they found a way to leave the demiplane, they'd probably still be real. But yes, the Dark Powers seem to have created their ancestors out of the substance of the Mists.

The Gazetteer Volume I from White Wolf puts it this way:

"This leads me to the disturbing hypothesis that each land in our world may simply have been created from whole cloth on the day that it first appeared in the Mists. All the land's history, memories, and lives that predate that day may be nothing more than an unfathomably complex phantasm."

Note that not every domain is a straight copy of its Prime Material equivalent. Azalin's domain of Darkon doesn't match the geography of Knurl and the Adri Forest, from which the lich originally came. You can look at the map, squint, and kind of guess at equivalences, but Darkon is definitely not a copy of Azalin's former fief in the Flanaess. It's a unique realm created to reflect his personality, and the centuries of false history that Darkon's inhabitants remember predating Azalin's reign is just that: a delusion created by the Dark Powers, like the lives of those who remembered existing before that time.

Barovia is a close copy of the Prime Material Barovia, but the realms of Vecna and Kas don't resemble their former domains in the Sheldomar in the slightest. The "Burning Peaks" there might be some kind of rough reflection of the Hellfurnaces, and Vecna's desert realm might be the Sea of Dust, but it's more likely it's just a version of the Quasielemental Plane of Ash. Vecna's Citadel Cavitius does look identical to the Citadel Cavitius that remained on the Plane of Ash. Kas's domain of Tovag is lightly forested with scrub pines, and I have no idea what, if any, terrain it's supposed to represent. Not the Dry Steppes, where its namesake Tovag Baragu is found.

The city of Kalidnay, which was copied from Athas, still remains as a ruin on its world of origin as well as in the Demiplane of Dread. It seems like Kalidnay was copied exactly. There might still be a connection to Ravenloft there, however.
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby Dread Delgath » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:46 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Dread Delgath wrote:If there were "copies", then there would be (at least) two Castle Ravenlofts; one in its home plane & another in the Demi-Plane of Dread.


There is. See Roots of Evil for more details. There are also two Citadels Cavitius. I don't know for a fact that this is always what happens, however.

BUT there would be two Strahds!


Well, no. Strahd himself was sucked bodily into Ravenloft (not copied). However, descendants of the Von Zorovich clan (King Barov and Queen Kristiana, both lawful good) still rule in the Prime Material Plane's version of Castle Ravenloft. From their perspective, strange mists appeared in the castle and every living inhabitant vanished, but the castle itself remained. The current ruler of that alternate Castle Ravenloft, King Barov von Zarovich VI, happens to be the near-perfect twin of his distant relative, Strahd. He's not a vampire, though, and he's a little more aged in appearance.


Roots of Evil? I don't have that one. When did it come out & by whom? I don't have any 3.0 or later Ravenloft products. I base all my arguments on what I remember from the TSR products that I have on my shelf, and my TSR Ravenloft collection is only about 80% complete. :?
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby Dread Delgath » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:49 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
mortellan wrote:The last one is something I wonder about. If the domains are copied are all the people in the DoD real then?


That's where we get into philosophical territory. What is "real?" They're self-aware (in that they can be PCs), and effectively real as far as anyone in the Demiplane of Dread is concerned. If they found a way to leave the demiplane, they'd probably still be real. But yes, the Dark Powers seem to have created their ancestors out of the substance of the Mists.

The Gazetteer Volume I from White Wolf puts it this way:

"This leads me to the disturbing hypothesis that each land in our world may simply have been created from whole cloth on the day that it first appeared in the Mists. All the land's history, memories, and lives that predate that day may be nothing more than an unfathomably complex phantasm."

Note that not every domain is a straight copy of its Prime Material equivalent. Azalin's domain of Darkon doesn't match the geography of Knurl and the Adri Forest, from which the lich originally came. You can look at the map, squint, and kind of guess at equivalences, but Darkon is definitely not a copy of Azalin's former fief in the Flanaess. It's a unique realm created to reflect his personality, and the centuries of false history that Darkon's inhabitants remember predating Azalin's reign is just that: a delusion created by the Dark Powers, like the lives of those who remembered existing before that time.

Barovia is a close copy of the Prime Material Barovia, but the realms of Vecna and Kas don't resemble their former domains in the Sheldomar in the slightest. The "Burning Peaks" there might be some kind of rough reflection of the Hellfurnaces, and Vecna's desert realm might be the Sea of Dust, but it's more likely it's just a version of the Quasielemental Plane of Ash. Vecna's Citadel Cavitius does look identical to the Citadel Cavitius that remained on the Plane of Ash. Kas's domain of Tovag is lightly forested with scrub pines, and I have no idea what, if any, terrain it's supposed to represent. Not the Dry Steppes, where its namesake Tovag Baragu is found.

The city of Kalidnay, which was copied from Athas, still remains as a ruin on its world of origin as well as in the Demiplane of Dread. It seems like Kalidnay was copied exactly. There might still be a connection to Ravenloft there, however.


Interesting, and some of this makes sense. Actually, I guess all of it makes sense for a fantasy RPG and different companies shoehorning their contributions into the original. ;)
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby ripvanwormer » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:38 pm

Dread Delgath wrote:Roots of Evil? I don't have that one. When did it come out & by whom? I don't have any 3.0 or later Ravenloft products. I base all my arguments on what I remember from the TSR products that I have on my shelf, and my TSR Ravenloft collection is only about 80% complete. :?


Here it is on Amazon.com. Written by Erik Haddock and David Wise, in 1993. It used to be a free download at Wizards.com.
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby Dread Delgath » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:05 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Dread Delgath wrote:Roots of Evil? I don't have that one. When did it come out & by whom? I don't have any 3.0 or later Ravenloft products. I base all my arguments on what I remember from the TSR products that I have on my shelf, and my TSR Ravenloft collection is only about 80% complete. :?


Here it is on Amazon.com. Written by Erik Haddock and David Wise, in 1993. It used to be a free download at Wizards.com.


Thanks for the link...Yep, this was 1993, and the year when my collecting started to taper off, so I missed this one, and several other Ravenloft products. I once bought a book twice because I couldn't remember buying it, yet, I have passed on another book several times because I swore up & down that I had it on my shelf when I really didn't! :oops:
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby mortellan » Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:18 am

Rip: Great backup info on the domains and its inhabitants. I think the fact they may be phantasms adds a greater sense of tragedy. Imagine PCs pulled in and trying to escape with a local only to learn at the last minute he/she never existed. RL is like one big 'holodeck' adventure in that case. Also ,for some reason the Vistani strike me as being real. No evidence. But maybe its how they come and go as they please.

p.s. I never liked Tovag for Kas. He should have been from Tycheron.
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:19 pm

mortellan wrote:Also ,for some reason the Vistani strike me as being real.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure they emigrated from another world. Van Richten's Guide to the Vistani recounts several contradictory myths to this effect, but I see no reason to doubt they physically left some other world and were drawn into the mists of Ravenloft, rather than being some confabulation of the Dark Powers. Domains of Dread says they suddenly appeared in the second century after Ravenloft's creation.

I never liked Tovag for Kas. He should have been from Tycheron.


Oh, definitely. And Vecna Lives! had mentioned Tycheron, so Steve Miller and William Connors don't really have an excuse for missing that. Well, I suppose it's still an obscure reference. Still, calling his domain "Tovag" was pretty lazy. If someone were to create Ravenloft domains for Vecna and Kas now, with the additional canon we have on their Oerthly domains, they'd probably be very different.
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby mortellan » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:35 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Yeah, I'm pretty sure they emigrated from another world. Van Richten's Guide to the Vistani recounts several contradictory myths to this effect, but I see no reason to doubt they physically left some other world and were drawn into the mists of Ravenloft, rather than being some confabulation of the Dark Powers. Domains of Dread says they suddenly appeared in the second century after Ravenloft's creation.


Wow, I've never read any Van Richtens book before nor have I seen a RL timeline. I just got that impression from the Vistani. Weird. Seeing this info though seems for me to reinforce the theory they may be related to the Rhennee. No reason they couldn't be from the same starting point. Maybe they got split up in the mists. The bad ones went to RL the less bad ones went to Oerth? Or vice versa.
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby ripvanwormer » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:11 am

mortellan wrote:Wow, I've never read any Van Richtens book before nor have I seen a RL timeline. I just got that impression from the Vistani. Weird. Seeing this info though seems for me to reinforce the theory they may be related to the Rhennee. No reason they couldn't be from the same starting point. Maybe they got split up in the mists. The bad ones went to RL the less bad ones went to Oerth? Or vice versa.


My theory remains that they all went to Ravenloft first (probably originating in the Gothic Earth setting, which also has Vistani in it), and some entered Oerth through the portal in the Adri Forest associated with the City of the Summer Stars (and I'd point out the City of the Summer Stars as an example of a location that got sucked into the demiplane entirely, rather than being merely copied, if that connection was official).

Theories in Van Richten's Guide for Vistani origins include the idea that they were a race of smiths, animal-handlers, and healers following the army of a great conquerer called Vistan. When Vistan's army was defeated (according to some stories, by Strahd), the Vistani (and it's noted that this isn't their true name, just what ignorant people named them because of their association with the conqueror Vistan, to whom they aren't even related) were unable to return home because their way back was blocked by the vengeful people of "Transyl." Cursed for Vistan's sins, they tried travelling the long way home, having heard the world was wrong. Alas, they were wrong; the world is flat, and they're doomed never to find their home again. Another idea was that they were cast into the Demiplane of Dread by the treacherous gods after the gods taught them secrets that no mortals should know. Those secrets helped the gods defeat the Dark Powers, but they also made the Vistani too dangerous to be allowed free, so they were cast into the same prison the Dark Powers were cast into. This explains why the Vistani have no gods today, and would explain why the Rhennee lack them as well. Another theory has them being punished for some ambiguous crime of murder for the sake of love.
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby mortellan » Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:27 am

ripvanwormer wrote:My theory remains that they all went to Ravenloft first (probably originating in the Gothic Earth setting, which also has Vistani in it), and some entered Oerth through the portal in the Adri Forest associated with the City of the Summer Stars (and I'd point out the City of the Summer Stars as an example of a location that got sucked into the demiplane entirely, rather than being merely copied, if that connection was official).


Great stuff. This thread is almost bordering on becoming a RL forum. Anyhoo, the problem with the CoSS becoming a Domain is this: Where is the Darklord? IIRC according to Ivid the Undying, Darnakurian, who I would assume is the tormented evil here, still haunts the Cold Wood along with his sword Hunger, right?
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby ripvanwormer » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:24 am

I invented a new character, Eleandereth, who had been Darnakurian's advisor. Haha, read my article for more.

Basically, Darnakurian is the one the Dark Powers really want, but they can't get at him because of the region of timelessness he's imprisoned in. So Azalin and Eleandereth conspire to arrange the birth of a rogue Vistana (singular of Vistani) with powers over time, and exploit the demiplane's desire to get at Darnakurian to create a temporary bridge between worlds, affording them a chance to escape. And, after some pursuit and betrayal, this is how the Rhennee ended up on Oerth.
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby mortellan » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:35 am

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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby Dread Delgath » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:14 am

Very nice. New blog & stuff. But I will have to keep making comments here, since I really don't want a Google account and for some reason, I cannot sign up to follow your blog with Yahoo. :?
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby mortellan » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:59 am

Delgath: I've had a look at my settings and I'm going to try opening up comments to all users account or otherwise. Not that I'd discourage discussion here, ever, the Piazza is still great. Enjoy. ^_^
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby Dread Delgath » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:20 am

mortellan wrote:Delgath: I've had a look at my settings and I'm going to try opening up comments to all users account or otherwise. Not that I'd discourage discussion here, ever, the Piazza is still great. Enjoy. ^_^


Well, I am following your blog with My Yahoo. That part works fine, however right below that is the section where all your followers get a little icon there to show that they are proud followers of your blog, and it currently says, "There are no followers yet. Be the first!" and is a link that gets you a new window. There you have 3 choices to click: Google, Twitter & Yahoo. When I click on Yahoo, the answer I get is "We're sorry... We were unable to handle your request. Please try again or return a bit later."

I am not a fan of Google mail for various reasons, and for all of Yahoo's warts, I'm not going to get yet another email addy aside from Yahoo now. :evil:

The comments seem to be open, and I would post here right now if I had something other than all the bitchin' & complainin' to post! ;)

Still, your blog looks pretty clean & neat. We will have to get it slovenly & lived in look pretty soon. :P
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby Cthulhudrew » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:30 am

I want to know the Cultist's identitiesf! Too much suspense!!

(It's really cool to know you've been slowly building to this.)
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby mortellan » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:35 am

Cthulhudrew: I have to slowly build up to it because springing the answer on everyone would be like a Mass Feeblemind spell! ;P
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby Azaghal » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:12 am

I haven`t followed Greyhawk for years and yet I feel I should know the cultists!! Grrrr!
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Re: Greyhawk Webcomic

Postby Dread Delgath » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:47 am

Azaghal wrote:I haven`t followed Greyhawk for years and yet I feel I should know the cultists!! Grrrr!


I have a couple of powerful NPCs in mind, yet I have the feeling that I will be wrong. Mort will announce who they really are, and I'll sit here blinking at my screen saying, "Who!?"
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