Nystul?

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Nystul?

Postby Havard » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:32 pm

Hi,
I am looking at ways to use the GH Duchy of Tehn in conjunction with Blackmoor. This is when I learned that Nystul was a native of that land. From what I understand, Nystul was never a character played, but rather named after the spell Nystul's Magic Aura, which in turn was named by Mike Nystul. Am I right?

Is there anything else I should know about Nystul beyond what is found in the GH Wiki entry?

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Re: Nystul?

Postby ripvanwormer » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:11 pm

I think the wiki entry contains pretty much everything we know, although it doesn't mention his temporary death at the hands of Halmadar the Cruel (a pseudo-lich with the Eye and Hand of Vecna grafted to him) just before the Wars began.
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Re: Nystul?

Postby Havard » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:32 pm

Thanks!

I was toying with the idea of integrating Nystul into the Mystara/Blackmoor continuum as well. I see that he is associated with the Keepers of the Flam. They seem remarkably similar to the Brothers of the Greenwood, at least on the surface?

In the DA4 situation, the Duchy of Ten is occupied by the Afridhi. In Post Ashes Greyhawk, it looks like several factions are struggling to control the realm. There are distinct parallells in spite of the differences.




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Re: Nystul?

Postby Havard » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:05 pm

Is there anything known about Mike Nystul that could be used to flesh out the wizard character?

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Re: Nystul?

Postby ripvanwormer » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:58 pm

Dragon #219 says "He is also the only person to have an AD&D spell named after him, not the character" (which isn't exactly true, since Tasha is named after a real person, and Otiluke and Drawmij weren't the names of the PCs those people played) but I'm not even sure how the chronology of that would work. In that article (published in 1995) he says he was first introduced to RPGs "over a decade ago," but Nystul's Magic Aura appeared in the Player's Handbook way back in 1978. Nystul didn't start working for TSR until 1995. He was scheduled to write a "major Planescape boxed set" with Colin McComb, but that never seems to have happened. It doesn't look like anything he might have written for TSR was ever published at all, if this product page is comprehensive (the company was unable to afford to pay their printer after 1996 and not everything originally planned ended up happening; also, Colin McComb left the company in 1996). Nystul designed a lot of demon-related sourcebooks for Mayfair's RoleAids line, and a sourcebook on "archmagic," which sounds roughly like what in 3rd edition would be called epic magic. He seems to be best known for the Whispering Vault horror-themed RPG that he originally self-published. The background of that game seems very complex and interesting, and I can think of a number of ways that could add depth to Nystul of Tenh in the Greyhawk setting; perhaps the order of Pholtan monks who raised him were exorcists founded by otherworldly spirit-binders. Perhaps Nystul utilizes some of the techniques of a Whispering Vault character in battling the forces of Iuz.

Mike Nystul also designed some spells and magic for the FANTASY HERO game, so someone wanting to flesh out a wizard character might go to those products as well.

Random fact: the Sorcerous Union in Radigast City, where the wizard Nystul was trained in magic, is known as perhaps the most prestigious school of illusion magic on Oerth according to Oerth Journal #3.

According to Grodog's Greyhawk puns and homages page, Gary Gygax wrote on Dragonsfoot that "Nystul is the surname of a stage magician, Brad Nystul, who suggested the magical aura spell to me," which suggests that it isn't named after Mike Nystul at all (I found the original quote here). Grodog's page also claims (quoting someone else on Dragonsfoot) that Mike and his brother Bryan Nystul (who was also a game designer, primarily for FASA) played in Len Lakofka's Lendore Isle campaign, though, and it's possible the idea for the spell got to Gygax that way and EGG simply misremembered the spell's origin in later years (and Google found me that thread). It's possible that Brad Nystul was a relative of Mike Nystul's (he said in Dragon #219 that he was introduced into gaming by his father, a former theatrical lighting salesman who had been to a Gen Con; he could have been a stage magician as well, since stage magicians could certainly make use of theatrical lighting - and anyway, the idea that Mike Nystul's father sold lighting seems possibly connected to the wizard Nystul being raised by a monk obsessed with the powers of light and darkness).

Oh, okay! The second Dragonsfoot link led me over to Footprints magazine #5, in which Len Lakofka discusses his "Nystul campaign," which included "Brad, Genny, Mike and Brian [sic] Nystul and Mark whose last name I don't remember." Mike and Bryan Nystul were brothers and later game designers, so Brad Nystul must have been their father. Mystery solved, I guess: it was actually probably Mike Nystul's father who the spell was named after (although Mike might have suggested the spell to his father, who suggested it to Gygax - who knows?). Genny Nystul was probably their mother, or conceivably their sister. Lakofka said the "Nystul campaign" ended in 1985, which fits the "over a decade ago" reference in Dragon. I'm not sure how old the Nystul brothers were at the time, or how long they'd been playing, but it does seem clear that they'd known Gary Gygax as early as 1978.

In Footprints #5, Len Lakofka goes into more detail on Mike Nystul's D&D character: "Mike was more aggressive and impetuous while Brian was more conservative. Mike did many brash things that got him killed more than once. One of them was using his magic user as a flying spell launch pad during a major melee. As he rose above the clatter and begin casting a Fire Ball someone yelled “There’s a target!” and many orc archers found something to shoot at! Oops!" Okay, that's some detail that could go into Nystul the Wizard. Oh, look at that: the issue also has the character sheets of all the characters played during that campaign. The only magic-users were:

Arthur, NG human mage/cleric of Wee Jas (player: Bob, whoever that is)
Bond, CN half-elven fighter/mage of Wee Jas (player: Mike Nystul). Said to be a native of Nyrond, which borders Tenh. This must be the impetuous one mentioned above. Note the official wizard Nystul is said to disguise himself as a "demure half-elven maiden." Bond's gender isn't noted on the character sheet.
Zeelon, N elven mage/thief worshiper of Norebo. (player: Genny Nystul)
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Re: Nystul?

Postby Allen Varney » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:26 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:According to Grodog's Greyhawk puns and homages page, Gary Gygax wrote on Dragonsfoot that "Nystul is the surname of a stage magician, Brad Nystul, who suggested the magical aura spell to me," which suggests that it isn't named after Mike Nystul at all (I found the original quote here). Grodog's page also claims (quoting someone else on Dragonsfoot) that Mike and his brother Bryan Nystul (who was also a game designer, primarily for FASA) played in Len Lakofka's Lendore Isle campaign, though, and it's possible the idea for the spell got to Gygax that way and EGG simply misremembered the spell's origin in later years (and Google found me that thread). It's possible that Brad Nystul was a relative of Mike Nystul's (he said in Dragon #219 that he was introduced into gaming by his father, a former theatrical lighting salesman who had been to a Gen Con; he could have been a stage magician as well, since stage magicians could certainly make use of theatrical lighting - and anyway, the idea that Mike Nystul's father sold lighting seems possibly connected to the wizard Nystul being raised by a monk obsessed with the powers of light and darkness).

I know Mike Nystul -- he lives here in Austin, Texas -- though I think he often goes by the name "Alex Gray" nowadays; I don't know what the story is there. I admire the detective work in ripvanwormer's post, but for the record, Mike specifically claimed to me that he himself originated and is the namesake for Nystul's magic aura.
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Re: Nystul?

Postby ripvanwormer » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:11 pm

Interesting! Well, I'm perfectly willing to assume that Gygax's memory was hazy and he didn't, after 30 years, remember exactly which Nystul originally suggested the spell. Thanks for the additional information, Allen Varney.
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Re: Nystul?

Postby Havard » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:03 pm


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Re: Nystul?

Postby grodog » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:28 pm

Thanks for the pointer, Rip! Whenever I get access back to my web site, I'll update that info.

ripvanwormer wrote:Dragon #219 says "He is also the only person to have an AD&D spell named after him, not the character" (which isn't exactly true, since Tasha is named after a real person, and Otiluke and Drawmij weren't the names of the PCs those people played)


FWIW, Dennis Sustare (RPG designer of Bunnies & Burrows, among others) is the namesake for the druid spell Chariot of Sustarre too, since he was the creator of the OD&D Druid in Eldritch Wizardry.
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Re: Nystul?

Postby Havard » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:33 pm

Good to see you on the Piazza Allan! :)

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Re: Nystul?

Postby Big Mac » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:27 am

Allen Varney wrote:I know Mike Nystul -- he lives here in Austin, Texas -- though I think he often goes by the name "Alex Gray" nowadays; I don't know what the story is there. I admire the detective work in ripvanwormer's post, but for the record, Mike specifically claimed to me that he himself originated and is the namesake for Nystul's magic aura.


Using both names in Google turns up some interesting results (including - apparently - work on a "choose your own adventure" Pokemon story).

Faceborg lists him as working for: TSR, FASA, Mayfair Games, BioWare, Vile Enterprises (don't know who they are), Sears Holdings (non-gaming) and RedBrick LLC (which seems to be working on some FASA stuff - maybe Alex is continuing his work there).

Alex Gray has a blog (Mad Viking Productions) and you can read about the spell-name link on his biography (Alex Who?) page. (Ironically he says he changed his name, as he "was tired of people misspelling Nystul", but as a Brit, I automatically think of the word "Gray" as being spelled with an "e" instead of an "a".) He is also teaching RPG design in Austin Texas.

He has also done a stage show, called Epic!, based on the D&D games he played as a child. I don't know if his wizard features in the show, but from the description on his Interactive Theatre page, they grab some random people out of the audience and turn them into the "heroes" of an adventure that is played out using improvisation. It sounds like it could be a ton of fun. Weirdly, you can "level up" in Epic! I guess that means you need to go back to another show, later on.

I don't know if any of this is useful to you, Havard.

Havard wrote:Good to see you on the Piazza Allan! :)


Wow. The mightly Grodog on The Piazza! Welcome aboard Allan! :cool:

EDIT: I just read Alex's FAQ (on his blog):

Alex Gray wrote:Why did you change your name?
Apparently there were people who really thought I was in some kind of witness relocation thing or that I was avoiding prosecution for something. It was nothing so glamorous. I was working as a freelance writer and artist at the time and no one could spell my name right. I was also never all that fond of "Mike" and had been going by "Alex" for some time.


It is well worth reading the rest of his FAQ, as it is very funny.
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Re: Nystul?

Postby ripvanwormer » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:46 am

Good find! It's interesting that he's agnostic in that article on the question of which Nystul the spell is named after.

My family suggested several spells, several of which made it into the Player's Handbook - one of which (Nystul's Magic Aura) bore our family name.
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Re: Nystul?

Postby Big Mac » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:33 am

ripvanwormer wrote:Good find! It's interesting that he's agnostic in that article on the question of which Nystul the spell is named after.

My family suggested several spells, several of which made it into the Player's Handbook - one of which (Nystul's Magic Aura) bore our family name.


I found something even more interesting on Alex Gray's Mike Nystul page:

Mike Nystul wrote:Still working on Nystul's Infinite Dungeon. It won't be my next posted project though - that will be an orginal RPG I'm doing with Joel Biske. Plenty of gaming in my future.


You might find more updates here.
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Re: Nystul?

Postby kaskoid » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:55 am

His claim is spurious at best for having originated and named those spells.
I worked on that project when he would have been 11 years old.
I go with Gary's recollection about the stage magician.
The fact that he has traded on that dubious claim and less than one year of employment at TSR (with nothing coming out with his name on it) is worth examining.
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Re: Nystul?

Postby TBeholder » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:04 am

...and "Snilloc" is "Collins" backwards, aye. Not the first NPC born from a real name, nor the last.

As to Nystul's spells, there are, indeed, "several". By level (source is Greyhawk Adventures if not given):
1 Nystul's Dancing Werelight - Alteration
1 Nystul's Flash - Evocation
1 Nystul's Magic Aura - Illusion/Phantasm (PH2)
2 Nystul's Blackmote - Evocation
2 Nystul's Blazing Beam - Evocation
2 Nystul's Crystal Dagger - Evocation, Conjuration
2 Nystul's Magical Mask - Illusion (Dragon #229)
3 Nystul's Crystal Dirk - Evocation, Conjuration
3 Nystul's Expeditious Fire Extinguisher - Evocation
3 Nystul's Golden Revelation - Alteration
3 Nystul's Radiant Baton - Evocation
4 Nystul's Blacklight Burst - Evocation
4 Nystul's Grue Conjuration - Conjuration/Summoning
4 Nystul's Lightburst - Evocation
5 Nystul's Enveloping Darkness - Evocation, Alteration
5 Nystul's Radiant Arch - Alteration

"Nystul's Dancing dweomer" at canonfire.com/wiki may be a mix-up with Laeral's Dancing Dweomer (FR) or Nahal's Reckless Dweomer (ToM) adjacent in some lists to Nystul's Dancing Werelight, that got copypasted all over internetz via the rumourmillipedia. Because there doesn't seem to be anything other than the name on it, anywhere.
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Re: Nystul?

Postby BlackBat242 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:25 am

An update a year after Havard's post... from someone Kaskoid knows:

http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11282
francisca wrote: Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:38 am
So, I know several of us have supported various kickstarters. I'm starting this thread to sort of keep a running tally on our experiences with KS (and Indiegogo if you want to include those, too). The idea is to post what we've backed, then periodically come back and make updates.

While I am all for discussing negative experiences, let's keep it civil.

Here are the kickstarters I've supported:

..... {some deleted as they aren't important}

Project: Nystul's Infinite Dungeon
Link: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/206 ... te-dungeon
Status: funded 4/15/2012, due 9/2012, unfullfilled as of 4/2/2013
Results:
This project was billed as an old-school dungeon crawl by Mike "I got a spell named after me" Nystul. It was hyped as a true old-school crawl, but supposedly done in a way that made such adventures easier to manage. There was a long time with no updates, and in the meantime, he started a couple of other yet-to-be-fullfilled projects, and is talking about starting a couple on Indiegogo. Finally, on 4/1/2013, it was announced that this project would be completed by a group called "D3". Now, given the lack of updates and transparency, I have no idea how much of this project is going to be genuine old-school stuff done by Mike Nystul. So to me, this project has morphed into something it was not advertised as. I've requested a refund.

My final thought on the matter is actually centered around the spell named after the creator. Here is the description from the AD&D PHB:
Explanation/Description: By means of this spell any one item of a weight
of 50 g.p. per level of experience of the spell caster can be given an aura
which will be noticed if detection of magic is exercised upon the object. If
the object bearing the Nystul's Magic Aura is actually held by the creature
detecting for a dweomer, he, she or it is entitled to a saving throw versus
magic, and if this throw is successful, the creature knows that the aura has
been placed to mislead the unwary.
Otherwise, the aura is simply magical,
but no amount of testing will reveal what the magic is. The component for
this spell is a small square of silk which must be passed over the object to
bear the aura.

I guess I failed my save.

..... {a couple more deletions}

So...what do you guys got?
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Re: Nystul?

Postby TBeholder » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:19 pm

TBeholder wrote:...and "Snilloc" is "Collins" backwards, aye. Not the first NPC born from a real name, nor the last.
Also, Drawmij <- Jim Ward.
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Re: Nystul?

Postby jasman » Fri May 09, 2014 2:18 pm

Here's the dope on Brad Nystul - I knew him back in the 70s-80s in Chicago, and did some community theatre with him.

Brad was a friendly, easygoing guy - grey-bearded and a bit chubby. The original pictures of Nystul (Britannica's court wizard) in Origin's Ultima games actually resembled Brad, but greatly romanticized and way more imposing than Brad himself.

Brad used to play D&D with Gygax in the days when the D&D system was still being developed, and had yet to be sold on the market. He ran a wizard whose name was also Nystul, and the Nystul spells in the first edition of the D&D Players Guide were from Brad.Brad was really proud of that. I don't know about spells in later editions.Brad got sick (read on).

It's true that Brad liked magic and owned some of the more traditional tricks, and that he performed as a stage magician. But he was no David Copperfield - Brad did little birthday party gigs, stuff like that. I never heard of him appearing onstage or doing any touring - nothing that would get him a regular paycheck or star billing, even in modest venues.

Brad was always easy and funny. and i think that he had some relationship with Origin - maybe as a consultant? They must have know him, since their Nystul in the Ultima games so obviously resembled Brad. I played that series, and I was always tickled that you could see Brad's face in Ultima's Nystul character.

Then Brad got sick. he wasn't financially secure, and in his later years, he was kind of sad and worried and in a lot of pain. In fact, there's one Ultima game where Nystul's is pictured as drawn and haggard, and his dialog is pretty whiney. That hurt Brad's feelings, and I actually got pissed at Origin for that, and stopped playing the series. He was a nice guy, and they were kicking him when he was down and scared.

So that's what i know about Nystul.

As a side note, i've also played D&D with the original Mordenkainen. Unfotunately, he was a bit of a jerk.
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Re: Nystul?

Postby Big Mac » Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:54 pm

Welcome to The Piazza Jasman. If you want to say "hi" to everyone, and say what sort of things you like, we have an "Introduce yourself here" thread, where people do that. :)

That is a great story, although it is sad that the depiction of Nystul and the art got a bit snarky and upset Brad Nystul.

The Codex of Ultima Wisdom* has an article about Nystul, which may be of interest to people looking into the background of Nystul, even though it is about Ultima, rather than Greyhawk. That page also claims this is about Mike Nystul, rather than Brad Nystul. Perhaps if you have some additional sources to back up the claim that their Nystul is not named after Mike Nystul, they might change their page.

* = Did you see what they did there? :P

Maybe we should have a thread about Mordenkainen, so you can tell us a bit about who he was and what he went on to do.
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Re: Nystul?

Postby BlackBat242 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:27 am

So we have another person (besides Tim Kask) confirming Gary Gygax's statement that BRAD Nystul originated at least the first Nystul spell.

I'll go with that, myself, as Mike was apparently ~11 years old at the time, and just one of several persons named Nystul around D&D at that time.

Mike Nystul wouldn't be the first "Walt" in the gaming world.
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Re: Nystul?

Postby Havard » Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:08 pm

Huh,
never realized there were two Nystul's out there. I think Dragon #219 is the first time I read it was Mike, but perhaps he was indeed too young at the time.

Wikipedia doesn't have a listing for Brad Nystul, but there is one at RPGGeek.

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