Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

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Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Big Mac » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:11 am

MODERATOR NOTE: This thread has been moved from the Nentir Vale forum to Greyhawk forum.

I've just wondered if the concept of five parallel-worlds (Oerth, Aerth, Uerth, Yarth, and Earth) could be used to import Nentir Vale's world into a Greyhawk campaign.

Havard had a similar thread to this: Nerath and Greyhawk (where he was looking at what might be changed to fit NV into GH's future), but I'm wondering if Nentir Vale could be used as-is, and if the Points-of-Light concept could fit well with the concept that Gary's alternative-Oerth's all worked differently from the original one.

I know that Aerth would be covered well by the Dangerous Journeys RPG (which I don't own). And, from the article I linked to, I think that Earth is supposed to be a Gothic-Earth, so that doesn't seem like such a good fit.

Do we know much about Uerth and Yarth?
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:19 pm

Yarth is the world of the Sagard the Barbarian stories that Gary Gygax wrote with Fred Dille. Here's a short article on the subject.

In Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, Uerth was said to be an opposite-alignment version of Oerth. Broadly speaking, it has the same characters as Oerth, but if those characters were good on Oerth they're evil on Uerth, and vice versa.
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Big Mac » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:24 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Yarth is the world of the Sagard the Barbarian stories that Gary Gygax wrote with Fred Dille. Here's a short article on the subject.

In Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, Uerth was said to be an opposite-alignment version of Oerth. Broadly speaking, it has the same characters as Oerth, but if those characters were good on Oerth they're evil on Uerth, and vice versa.


Thanks for the link. Looks like Uerth is out. I don't know if there are any gaps on Yarth. :?

Maybe I should pick up the Sagard the Barbarian books. :geek:
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Morfie » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:48 pm

Is it Yarth? I thought it was based on standard vowels with all pronounced as Earth, ie: Ierth.
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby ripvanwormer » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:15 am

Morfie wrote:Is it Yarth?


Yes.
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Morfie » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:04 am

Sorry, I should've read the whole thread first.. :facepalm: :oops:

:x
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Havard » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:24 am

Big Mac, do you mean the Nentir Vale, or the entire Nerath setting (from the board game)? If we are talking about just the Nentir Vale its so small it would be IMHO better to simply integrate it into Greyhawk as has already been done.

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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Big Mac » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:45 pm

Havard wrote:Big Mac, do you mean the Nentir Vale, or the entire Nerath setting (from the board game)? If we are talking about just the Nentir Vale its so small it would be IMHO better to simply integrate it into Greyhawk as has already been done.


I mean the entire Nerath region and anything else in the Nentir Vale/Points of Light campaign setting, as would have been detailed in the 4e line Gazetteer line that was due to come on the heels of Gazetteer: The Nentir Vale.

We already know from the existing Nentir Vale products that they have recycled certain Greyhawk adventures, to make a 4e version that works in a different way. The adventures are being relocated to areas of the Nentir Vale setting, and that makes it not possible to integrate it into Oerth (without a lot of revamping).

There would be nothing wrong with rebooting 4e content, to add more to Greyhawk, but I was wondering if the entire setting could be dropped into one of the Alternate Oerths.

That is why I specified: "...I'm wondering if Nentir Vale could be used as-is, and if the Points-of-Light concept could fit well with the concept that Gary's alternative-Oerth's all worked differently from the original one." in my first post.
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Mr Dark » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:30 pm

Gary's East Mark Gazetteer has Yggsburgh and Castle Zagyg taking place on a world known as Urth. The world has twin moons and the writing is very similar to that in the original Greyhawk Folio. Considering where Greyhawk started I would think we now have a sixth alternate to work with. Since the only thing known about Urth comes from the ill fated Castle Zagyg project, I would say that would be a great place to put the Nentir Vale and ideas from Nerath.
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Angel Tarragon » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:51 am

Mr Dark wrote:Gary's East Mark Gazetteer has Yggsburgh and Castle Zagyg taking place on a world known as Urth.
Where can I find the East Mark Gazetteer?
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Big Mac » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:32 am

Mr Dark wrote:Gary's East Mark Gazetteer has Yggsburgh and Castle Zagyg taking place on a world known as Urth. The world has twin moons and the writing is very similar to that in the original Greyhawk Folio. Considering where Greyhawk started I would think we now have a sixth alternate to work with. Since the only thing known about Urth comes from the ill fated Castle Zagyg project, I would say that would be a great place to put the Nentir Vale and ideas from Nerath.


Is there anywhere that you think would be a good spot to drop Yggsburgh and Castle Zagyg? I know that the original City of Greyhawk was on a river, so I'd guess that reduces the number of places in Nerath that would work.

Twin Agate Dragons wrote:Where can I find the East Mark Gazetteer?


Amazon sell East Mark Gazetteer. Unfortunately, it is out of stock, both in the US and the UK at the moment. (The Canadian Amazon doesn't sell this book.) But you can add the book to your Amazon wishlist (if you have one) and use the details from that page to help you look for it elsewhere.
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Mr Dark » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:59 pm

For those looking for the East Mark Gazetteer you're in a bit of a pinch. Since the Castle Zagyg series was pulled from TLG they have become quite rare. You might find one on Ebay or Noble Knight but do not expect it to be cheap.


Is there anywhere that you think would be a good spot to drop Yggsburgh and Castle Zagyg? I know that the original City of Greyhawk was on a river, so I'd guess that reduces the number of places in Nerath that would work.


This is a good question. If you want it near the Nentir Vale there is a spot on the Conquest of Nerath map that would work. It is east of the Nentir Vale at a split in the river. This would work perfectly for the Yggsburgh area map. As for Greyhawk I would place it a bot north near the lake on the west. The only problem is that it gives the city a cooler climate than described.
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Big Mac » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:13 pm

Mr Dark wrote:For those looking for the East Mark Gazetteer you're in a bit of a pinch. Since the Castle Zagyg series was pulled from TLG they have become quite rare. You might find one on Ebay or Noble Knight but do not expect it to be cheap.


I do hope that TLG get the licence back at some point.

I would rather buy a reprint than fight the collectors to get expensive copies from eBay bandits.

Mr Dark wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Is there anywhere that you think would be a good spot to drop Yggsburgh and Castle Zagyg? I know that the original City of Greyhawk was on a river, so I'd guess that reduces the number of places in Nerath that would work.


This is a good question. If you want it near the Nentir Vale there is a spot on the Conquest of Nerath map that would work. It is east of the Nentir Vale at a split in the river. This would work perfectly for the Yggsburgh area map. As for Greyhawk I would place it a bot north near the lake on the west. The only problem is that it gives the city a cooler climate than described.


Thanks. If I have to pay eBay bandit prices, I probably won't go any further than discussing this here. Maybe things will change later.

EDIT: I found some Troll Lord Games previews that might be of interest:
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby ripvanwormer » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:38 pm

Mr Dark wrote:This is a good question. If you want it near the Nentir Vale there is a spot on the Conquest of Nerath map that would work. It is east of the Nentir Vale at a split in the river. This would work perfectly for the Yggsburgh area map. As for Greyhawk I would place it a bot north near the lake on the west. The only problem is that it gives the city a cooler climate than described.


Gary Gygax himself suggested putting Yggsburg at the confluence of the Neen and Ery Rivers (to the south of Greyhawk City). This map on Dragonsfoot shows how they might fit together (Greyhawk = Dunfalcon), though the creator modified the Greyhawk map in other ways to fit his campaign.
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Zeromaru X » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:32 pm

Someone in RPG forums suggested that "Nerath" (the unofficial name for the Nentir Vale world) sounds much like the alternative Oerths naming, and I remembered having read this post.

He also suggested that Nerath could be the sixth "Oerth" because, if we go by the magical spectrum of the alternative Oerths, Nerath is even more magical than Oerth. Seeing the canonical connections between Nerath and Oerth in 4e products, I do like this theory.
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Havard » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:59 pm

I am rather liking that the Nerath/Nentir Vale Setting has a kind of twisted mirror/bizarro relationship with both Greyhawk and Mystara. Or maybe something like Amber, where every world is a different shadow of something else. Perhaps this is true for every D&D world since they all share some level of similarities. Perhaps some worlds are simply more similar because they are closer to eachother in the reality spectrum?

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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Lord Zack » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:19 am

Zeromaru X wrote:Someone in RPG forums suggested that "Nerath" (the unofficial name for the Nentir Vale world) sounds much like the alternative Oerths naming, and I remembered having read this post.

He also suggested that Nerath could be the sixth "Oerth" because, if we go by the magical spectrum of the alternative Oerths, Nerath is even more magical than Oerth. Seeing the canonical connections between Nerath and Oerth in 4e products, I do like this theory.


That's basically how I am thinking I would do it. I would give it a magical factor of at least one, as in the rules fot alternate material planes from the Manual of the Planes (1e)
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Big Mac » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:42 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:Someone in RPG forums suggested that "Nerath" (the unofficial name for the Nentir Vale world) sounds much like the alternative Oerths naming, and I remembered having read this post.


I don't think Nerath was ever an unnoficial name. Wizards of the Coast used to have a forum called "Nentir Vale and Nerath". The Piazza's "Nentir Vale" forum actually got opened first and I don't think we knew about Nerath when the first Nentir Vale topics were written.

From my understanding, Nerath is the name of a larger part of the world Nentir Vale is set on. I didn't think it was the name of the entire world, because the Conquest of Nerath map was not a map of the entire world. I think it's similar to Greyhawk being in the Flanaess, which in turn is part of Oerik.

Zeromaru X wrote:He also suggested that Nerath could be the sixth "Oerth" because, if we go by the magical spectrum of the alternative Oerths, Nerath is even more magical than Oerth. Seeing the canonical connections between Nerath and Oerth in 4e products, I do like this theory.


Now that's an interesting idea. It would certainly do away with the need to shoehorn Nentir Vale/Nerath into one of the other worlds.

(I actually had a pet concept of stacking up clone worlds on top of each other in the D&D multiverse. So if the various crystal spheres of Spelljammer were all in a horizontal plane, I was thinking that "Aerthspace", "Uerthspace", "Yarthspace", and "Earthspace" would occupy the same position on the map as Greyspace, but would be in a vertical line above and/or below Greyspace. If Nerath was tied to Greyhawk then "Nerathspace" could also occupy the position of Greyspace on the map of the Known Spheres, but most spacefarers would travel through the phlogiston on the ecliptic and would be unable to find "Nerathspace".)
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Big Mac » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:47 pm

Havard wrote:I am rather liking that the Nerath/Nentir Vale Setting has a kind of twisted mirror/bizarro relationship with both Greyhawk and Mystara. Or maybe something like Amber, where every world is a different shadow of something else. Perhaps this is true for every D&D world since they all share some level of similarities. Perhaps some worlds are simply more similar because they are closer to eachother in the reality spectrum?


I had not thought of Mystara as a clone of Greyhawk. But there are some D&D modules that have been co-located in both settings, aren't there. I suppose that Mystara, Greyhawk and Nerath would have to be in some sort of triangular symbiotic relationship with each other. And if Blackmoor is it's own world, you might need that in there too.
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Big Mac » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:50 pm

Lord Zack wrote:
Zeromaru X wrote:Someone in RPG forums suggested that "Nerath" (the unofficial name for the Nentir Vale world) sounds much like the alternative Oerths naming, and I remembered having read this post.

He also suggested that Nerath could be the sixth "Oerth" because, if we go by the magical spectrum of the alternative Oerths, Nerath is even more magical than Oerth. Seeing the canonical connections between Nerath and Oerth in 4e products, I do like this theory.


That's basically how I am thinking I would do it. I would give it a magical factor of at least one, as in the rules fot alternate material planes from the Manual of the Planes (1e)


Thanks. I keep forgetting about those rules from Manual of the Planes. I should go back and have a read through them and use them when making homebrew Spelljammer crystal spheres.
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Re: Could Nentir Vale's world work as an alternative-Oerth?

Postby Havard » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:41 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Havard wrote:I am rather liking that the Nerath/Nentir Vale Setting has a kind of twisted mirror/bizarro relationship with both Greyhawk and Mystara. Or maybe something like Amber, where every world is a different shadow of something else. Perhaps this is true for every D&D world since they all share some level of similarities. Perhaps some worlds are simply more similar because they are closer to eachother in the reality spectrum?


I had not thought of Mystara as a clone of Greyhawk. But there are some D&D modules that have been co-located in both settings, aren't there. I suppose that Mystara, Greyhawk and Nerath would have to be in some sort of triangular symbiotic relationship with each other. And if Blackmoor is it's own world, you might need that in there too.


Mystara certainly isn't a clone of Greyhawk. But I suppose any D&D setting can in some way be seen as a reflection of Gary and Dave's campaigns since they make use of the same core elements. But yes, Blackmoor, the Duchy of Ten, City of the Gods, Keep on the Borderlands (B2), Quaqueton (B1), The Isle of Dread (X2) are examples of locales that have been tied to both Greyhawk and Mystara over the years, which is why I brought this up.

Of course, you could also throw in the Forgotten Realms (Drow, Tomb of Horrors etc) and even Dragonlance if you want to consider things like Gods sharing similar traits etc.

Nerath seems to be the setting that most extensively integrated previously established locations into its world though.

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