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Pulp Powers and the tech axiom

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:08 pm
by princeearwig
Actually this question applies to any gear based perk really.
Is it still the case that gear like pulp power gadgets or Dragon Armour still carries its own axiom considerations?
I seem to recall reading it but I cannot find it to clarify if it was in Eternity or I am remembering oTorg.

Example as to why this might crop up.
Edeinos with cosm adaptation, Occult. We'll call him Gothy
Gothy counts as Orrorshan for the purposes of buying Alchemy.
Clearly Alchemy relies on the world laws of Orrorsh and likely the Magic axiom being suitable.
If Gothy tried to brew up a few potions while in Mumbai then the perk won't cause the contradiction as he is in Orrorsh, but Gothy still only has a personal axiom lower than the cosm.
If Gothy tries it outside of Orrorsh then, as the world laws no longer support it, his alchemy attempt is AT LEAST a 1 case, and arguably a 4 case if Gothy's personal axioms are applied.
Lastly if Gothy tries to bring the wonders of Alchemy back to his Whitespear tribe mates then is it a 4 case because Gothy and the cosm are incompatible to Alchemy.

So do World law dependent perks carry any of their native cosm's axioms with them for contradiction check purposes?

Re: Pulp Powers and the tech axiom

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:41 pm
by Istrian
Assuming Gothy's home cosm is LL, I have bad news for him. Cosm Adaptation does not remove contradictions as far as I know.

So, Gothy in Orrorsh -> one-case contradiction because Gothy is not Orrorshan.
Gothy everywhere else -> four-case contradiction.

Axioms don't really matter in this case, but if they did I'd take a look at the Alchemy Kit required to make potions (General Gear), which is Tech 17. I'd say potions are also Tech 17 if it matters.

Re: Pulp Powers and the tech axiom

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:52 pm
by Wotan
princeearwig wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:08 pm
So do World law dependent perks carry any of their native cosm's axioms with them for contradiction check purposes?
No, it's simpler than that. If a Perk's pre-reqs are preceded by a star (rather than a bullet point) Axioms don't come into it. As Istrian says, they're always contradictions outside their native Cosm, or if used by non-natives of their Cosm.

Re: Pulp Powers and the tech axiom

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:47 pm
by savioronedge
In old TORG pulp powers had a Tech axiom at which they were non-contradictions even without the world laws.

Re: Pulp Powers and the tech axiom

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:07 pm
by princeearwig
Ok so clearly is my memory of oTorg that brought tech axiom to mind. That being said though...
I already understand that the * perks are contradictory when used "outside" of the cosm
Whereabouts is it stated that the Asterisked perks are contradictory when used by a non-Native?
Is it being inferred from the cosm adaptation text
"The character may purchase Perks from that group as through she met the cosm prerequisite."

Not disagreeing with the interpretation, just wanted a more solid reference, especially considering my ageing brains insistence on merging oTorg crunch where it isn't needed :D

Re: Pulp Powers and the tech axiom

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:12 pm
by Wotan
princeearwig wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:07 pm
Ok so clearly is my memory of oTorg that brought tech axiom to mind. That being said though...
I already understand that the * perks are contradictory when used "outside" of the cosm
Whereabouts is it stated that the Asterisked perks are contradictory when used by a non-Native?
Is it being inferred from the cosm adaptation text
"The character may purchase Perks from that group as through she met the cosm prerequisite."

Not disagreeing with the interpretation, just wanted a more solid reference, especially considering my ageing brains insistence on merging oTorg crunch where it isn't needed :D
Fair point. I don't think it is said anywhere if it's not covered in Cosm Adaption, cos it wasn't a possible situation prior to CA. But if a Living Land character used CA to access cyberware that would still be a 1 case within CP areas, so IMHO it seems like a fair extrapolation to say the same happens with Cosm specific perks. *shrug*

Re: Pulp Powers and the tech axiom

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:14 pm
by TorgHacker
We'll be adding a clarification to Cosm Adaptation when it comes time to put that in print.

Probably should add it to the FAQ too (I thought I had done that but apparently not).

Re: Pulp Powers and the tech axiom

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:30 pm
by savioronedge
Tangential to this thread: I must say, you say "non-transformed Edeinos with cyberware," and I hear "Mutant Weasel Juicer." Not technically wrong within the Rules with Cosm Adaptation (Rifts Character Creation), but definitely starting to feel like pure min-maxation.

My CE Zombie-Apocalypse-Prepper is just waiting on Beta to take CA: Occult and Bulletsmith, but his whole persona is about killing monsters no one else believe(d/s) are real.

I am (mostly) joking when I compare the exchange, "Why do you want that ___?" "It's +4 to hit" to "What are electrolytes?" "There{ibid} what plants crave."

And maybe this goes back to CE being the Masters of Reality. With Realm Runner and Adaptable, JT will NOT cause a contradiction in Orrorsh, and will ignore his first Disconnect whole he's walking around as a 4 case outside. But Mr NT Edeinos can't get both those perks and Cyberware.

</Rambling>

Re: Pulp Powers and the tech axiom

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:50 pm
by Wotan
savioronedge wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:30 pm
Tangential to this thread: I must say, you say "non-transformed Edeinos with cyberware," and I hear "Mutant Weasel Juicer." Not technically wrong within the Rules with Cosm Adaptation (Rifts Character Creation), but definitely starting to feel like pure min-maxation.
It's not a PC choice I'd make, but I'd likely allow it if it fit the character's concept (e.g. a particularly hardcore Gotak?)
I'm not sure it's great min-maxing though. Cyberware's gonna make a LL edeinos a walking 4-case anywhere but in the CP (even if only passive gear's picked there're still Surges to worry about.) So if a player came to me with the concept my first reaction would be "Are you sure you want to do that?" rather than "Yuck, that's OP". *shrug*

Re: Pulp Powers and the tech axiom

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:28 am
by Rabbitball
Wotan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:50 pm
It's not a PC choice I'd make, but I'd likely allow it if it fit the character's concept (e.g. a particularly hardcore Gotak?)
I'm not sure it's great min-maxing though. Cyberware's gonna make a LL edeinos a walking 4-case anywhere but in the CP (even if only passive gear's picked there're still Surges to worry about.) So if a player came to me with the concept my first reaction would be "Are you sure you want to do that?" rather than "Yuck, that's OP". *shrug*
Just be thankful I never bothered to copyright that phrase... :mrgreen: