[Fifth Age] Running Fifth Age with AD&D 2nd Edition

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Havard
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[Fifth Age] Running Fifth Age with AD&D 2nd Edition

Post by Havard » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:05 pm

We have been talking about this issue in this thread, but it seems like adapting the Fifth Age/Age of Mortals to AD&D 2nd Edition deserves a separate thread. Here are some of the things that have come up so far:
Jayce wrote: I'd much rather run 2E - but of course, the official 2E material never really covered the Fifth Age (apart from Battle Lines and the Chaos War adventures, which contained both 2E and Saga stats, but no real rules for playing in the Fifth Age proper in 2E).

So my second question is - is anyone aware of any rules for 2E that would adequately emulate Sorcerers and Mystics - as presented in either the Fifth Age (SAGA) game or the D&D 3.5 incarnation of Dragonlance?
(I've heard someone suggest using 2E psionics to emulate mysticism, but I'm not a huge fan of that idea - I don't think the 2E incarnation of Psionics feels much like Mysticism).
Havard wrote: I would just use Clerics as Mystics. Mages for Sorcerers.

You might want to tinker with the classes a bit, or leave them more or less as is. Clerics no longer have patrons so maybe they can no longer Turn Undead, cast bless, Chant etc? Maybe instead they can now use all weapons?

It might be worth considering to convert the Roles from the Saga books into Kits?
Jayce wrote:On a slightly different note - I noticed today that The Sylvan Veil adventure/supplement suggests using channelers (from Player's Option: Spells & Magic) to represent Primal Sorcery and Mysticism in 2E. Since I don't own this book, I have no idea what channelers are, or how they work. Would this be an appropriate choice for Krynn's primal sorcerers and mystics?
rabindranath72 wrote:There was a Mystic kit (for Priests) in a Dragon Annual (cannot recall which issue.) Also, revised cleric Spheres for Gods of Krynn. I think it was written by Steve Kenson.
How much material was actually created for AD&D 2nd Edition for playing in the Fifth Age? What about existing fan adaptations?

How would you run an AD&D 2nd Ed campaign in this era of the Dragonlance Setting?

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Re: [Fifth Age] Running Fifth Age with AD&D 2nd Edition

Post by Big Mac » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:48 pm

Havard wrote:How much material was actually created for AD&D 2nd Edition for playing in the Fifth Age? What about existing fan adaptations?
I'm probably wrong, but I always got the impression that they moved way from D&D to the Saga system, when they decided to publish the 5th Age.
Havard wrote:How would you run an AD&D 2nd Ed campaign in this era of the Dragonlance Setting?
I would actually be tempted to use the 3rd Edition Age of Mortals book and compare the 5th Age classes there to the standard Dragonlance classes in the 3rd Edition Dragonlance Campaign Setting. They are not 2nd Edition books, but by comparing the two books, I might be able to get a better idea of how similar or different 5th Age classes need to be compared to standard Dragonlance classes.

That might help with the process of building homebrew 2e classes (or kits) based on Age of Mortals classes or Prestige Classes.

Some things in the AoM book, like magic items, might be similar enough to 2e rules to work without conversion.
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Re: [Fifth Age] Running Fifth Age with AD&D 2nd Edition

Post by Havard » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:00 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Havard wrote:How much material was actually created for AD&D 2nd Edition for playing in the Fifth Age? What about existing fan adaptations?
I'm probably wrong, but I always got the impression that they moved way from D&D to the Saga system, when they decided to publish the 5th Age.
That was true originally, but as they gradually discovered that SAGA wasn't selling so well, they began releasing supplements that included stats both for SAGA and AD&D 2nd Edition. I am not sure how many dual stat products exist though?

Based on rabindranath72's comment that I quoted in the post above, it also looks like there may have been some articles in Dragon that were written specifically for AD&D 2nd Edition in the Fifth Age Setting. Anyone know how many of those exist and in which issues they might be found?
I would actually be tempted to use the 3rd Edition Age of Mortals book and compare the 5th Age classes there to the standard Dragonlance classes in the 3rd Edition Dragonlance Campaign Setting. They are not 2nd Edition books, but by comparing the two books, I might be able to get a better idea of how similar or different 5th Age classes need to be compared to standard Dragonlance classes.
Not a huge fan of the Age of Mortals book, but in general the MWP books are really good resources for the setting in general so it could be a good idea. Of course the main bulk of the rules from the War of the Lance Era already exists for 2nd Edition and will still be around for the Fifth Age, so we are mainly talking about a few things that need to be converted.

That might help with the process of building homebrew 2e classes (or kits) based on Age of Mortals classes or Prestige Classes.

Some things in the AoM book, like magic items, might be similar enough to 2e rules to work without conversion.
Good suggestions! :)

How many things need to be converted?

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Re: [Fifth Age] Running Fifth Age with AD&D 2nd Edition

Post by Armchair Gamer » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:42 pm

Havard wrote:
That was true originally, but as they gradually discovered that SAGA wasn't selling so well, they began releasing supplements that included stats both for SAGA and AD&D 2nd Edition. I am not sure how many dual stat products exist though?
Six, but only three are Fifth Age products--The Sylvan Veil, Rise of the Titans and The Odyssey of Gilthanas; the last is fiction and source material and is almost completely rules free. Two of the others are set during the Chaos War--Seeds of Chaos and Chaos Spawn. The last is Dragonlance Classics 15th Anniversary Edition.
Based on rabindranath72's comment that I quoted in the post above, it also looks like there may have been some articles in Dragon that were written specifically for AD&D 2nd Edition in the Fifth Age Setting. Anyone know how many of those exist and in which issues they might be found?
The mystic kit can be found in "The Gods of Krynn" in DRAGON Annual #4. I don't recall specific issues for other dual-statted articles, but you basically want to be looking in issues #255--273, from January 1999 to July 2000.
BigMac wrote:I would actually be tempted to use the 3rd Edition Age of Mortals book and compare the 5th Age classes there to the standard Dragonlance classes in the 3rd Edition Dragonlance Campaign Setting. They are not 2nd Edition books, but by comparing the two books, I might be able to get a better idea of how similar or different 5th Age classes need to be compared to standard Dragonlance classes.
I don't think there are any classes in the Age of Mortals except maybe the Mariner, and you can just pick him out of TotL. The mystic and noble are in the DLCS. However, I think that book suffers from the mandate from WotC that '5A sorcerer=3E sorcerer' despite the fact that the classes have only broad similiarities.

IMO, to best mirror the 5A spellcasting classes, the first step is to adopt a freer casting system--either the spell point system from Spells & Magic or just spontaneous casting a la 3E or 5E. The second step, and the one that involves the most work, is to go through the spell lists and seriously trim them down to reflect that 5A sorcerers are primarily elementalists, and 5A mystics combine the healer, druid and 'mentalist' archetypes. The third step, if you're up to it, is to break the spell lists down into subsets that reflect the schools and spheres of the Fifth Age magic system, allow classes to pick three of each, and let them cast anything from the schools/spheres they know that they are of high enough level to cast.

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Re: [Fifth Age] Running Fifth Age with AD&D 2nd Edition

Post by rabindranath72 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:03 am

Channelling is a spellcasting system for wizards in the Player's Options: Spells & Magic sourcebook. It's essentially a (somewhat clunky) spell point system. A similar spell point system is described for priests.
But IMO the ability to cast spells without memorisation is not the fundamental idea of 5th Age magic; rather, the fact that sorcery only directly affects unliving material, whereas mysticism only directly affects living things. However, by the time the SAGA Companion and Heroes of Hope were published, the distinction became completely moot, as hybrid spellcasting was introduced (so sorcerous and mystic effects could be freely mixed), followed by mantras (read: prayers) and librams (read: spellbooks). Thus recreating for all practical purposes the original D&D system.
So, unless one aims strictly to implement the original concepts, using mages and priests "as is" is a perfectly acceptable way of playing 5th Age with AD&D 2e. So if you want to play a hybrid sorcerer, just play a wizard; his "charm person" spell will be attributed to the "mysticism" part of his training.

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Re: [Fifth Age] Running Fifth Age with AD&D 2nd Edition

Post by The Dark » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:36 am

Havard wrote:Based on rabindranath72's comment that I quoted in the post above, it also looks like there may have been some articles in Dragon that were written specifically for AD&D 2nd Edition in the Fifth Age Setting. Anyone know how many of those exist and in which issues they might be found?
A small handful, looking at the period from the first SAGA article (in issue #231) to the end of 2e:
Dragon's Bestiary: The Chaos Creatures (issue #246)
Beyond the Tree (issue #251)
The Lost Giants of Krynn (issue #256)
Beneath the Boughs (issue #269)
The Gods of Krynn (Annual 4)

Some of them are dual-statted, but all include 2e stats. "Beyond the Tree" is rules for dryad PCs, and "Beneath the Boughs" is for satyr PCs.

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Re: [Fifth Age] Running Fifth Age with AD&D 2nd Edition

Post by apotheot » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:15 pm

There were also a trio of RPGA Adventurers Guild modules published for in store play, one connecting to the The Sylvan Veil called Spawn of Sable, one connecting to the Dragonlance Classics 15th Anniversary Edition called Children of Solace, and one (pdf only) one connected to the Rise of the Titans called Rumors. Each of these had some base dual rule information which can be found in the other products, but also some stat blocks using both systems for any character or pregen that was used. The first two can be found in secondhand market periodically for a pretty penny. The last one though, it is anyone's guess if it still exists in any form.

basic info about the Adventurer's Guild can be found herehttps://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/periodicals/ag.html

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Re: [Fifth Age] Running Fifth Age with AD&D 2nd Edition

Post by apotheot » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:45 am

rabindranath72 wrote:Channelling is a spellcasting system for wizards in the Player's Options: Spells & Magic sourcebook. It's essentially a (somewhat clunky) spell point system. A similar spell point system is described for priests.
But IMO the ability to cast spells without memorisation is not the fundamental idea of 5th Age magic; rather, the fact that sorcery only directly affects unliving material, whereas mysticism only directly affects living things. However, by the time the SAGA Companion and Heroes of Hope were published, the distinction became completely moot, as hybrid spellcasting was introduced (so sorcerous and mystic effects could be freely mixed), followed by mantras (read: prayers) and librams (read: spellbooks). Thus recreating for all practical purposes the original D&D system.
So, unless one aims strictly to implement the original concepts, using mages and priests "as is" is a perfectly acceptable way of playing 5th Age with AD&D 2e. So if you want to play a hybrid sorcerer, just play a wizard; his "charm person" spell will be attributed to the "mysticism" part of his training.

This post has been ringing in my head since I read it earlier, and it strikes me that to keep with the original concept the Mysticism school of Mentalism almost works better as abilities for a psionicist... I wonder if using a spellpoint style system instead of PSPs, psionics and certain priest spells could make up its own version of Mystic of the Heart style spells. Has anyone ever experimented with this?

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Re: [Fifth Age] Running Fifth Age with AD&D 2nd Edition

Post by Marco Fossati » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:52 am

15 years ago I played in a 5th age campaign with 2e rules.

DM said conversion was very easy but the game was heavy modified by his HRs (which I disliked, at least most of them)

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Re: [Fifth Age] Running Fifth Age with AD&D 2nd Edition

Post by apotheot » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:36 am

A bit of a thread necro, but I am prepping my finale (Wings of Fury) for use of the SAGA adventures converted to 2nd which I will run tomorrow night. Afterwards I'll finish the campaign with the two Battlelines adventures. But it strikes me that the final few chapters of WoF has some of the best non-novel related story from the series, but is also very poorly set up or laid out. I recall reading somewhere that one of the line chiefs (Baker?, Williams?, Niles?) had by the time the 3rd or 4th box in the series had been released was finally able to get his hands on a P&L statement and basically said "this line needs to end NOW". This book feels incredibly rushed, and I wonder if it is reflecting that.
-Apotheot

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