If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

"For in ages past, beyond memory and word, in the first blush of the world, Dragons terrible and great made war on this world of Krynn."
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If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

Post by Big Mac » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:55 pm

If Maztica had been put onto Krynn, instead of Toril, what would be different?

Obviously the Maztican gods would need to be replaced with the Dragonlance gods, but is there obvious roles that each Dragonlance deity could take on?

Which deities would be connected to Eagle Knights and Jaguar Knights?

Would you connect Pluma and Hishna to regular deities or would they be better off associated with two of the three moons?

If Pluma was tied to Solinari and Hishna was tied to Nuitari, what could Lunitari be tied to?

Would Takhisis be the obvious deity to have human sacrifice dedicated to her or would you go for another deity, like Chemosh?

How would the Cataclysm (and the absence of the gods) affect Maztican culture? Would the human sacrifice in Maztica work better as some sort of attempt to bring back divine magic?

How would the War of the Lance and draconians work with a Mezoamerican theme?

Is there anything in Mezoamerican mythology that would be especially good to give a Dragonlance reboot?
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Re: If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

Post by Dragonhelm » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:52 pm

Before I give my take on this, I want to start with a quote from Margaret Weis.
Margaret Weis wrote:"Dragonlance is a story of love and friendship set against a backdrop of war. "
- Margaret Weis
So with that being said, there would be a war going on, and the heroes would be friends who would have to battle against it.

Big Mac wrote:Obviously the Maztican gods would need to be replaced with the Dragonlance gods, but is there obvious roles that each Dragonlance deity could take on?

Which deities would be connected to Eagle Knights and Jaguar Knights?
Kiri-Jolith for Eagle Knights. Maybe Sargonnas or Takhisis for the Jaguar Knights?

Would you connect Pluma and Hishna to regular deities or would they be better off associated with two of the three moons?
The moons.
If Pluma was tied to Solinari and Hishna was tied to Nuitari, what could Lunitari be tied to?
Bendu, the one in the middle. :D
Would Takhisis be the obvious deity to have human sacrifice dedicated to her or would you go for another deity, like Chemosh?
Chemosh might work, as he represents fatalism. I think Hiddukel would work well too. I could see him just laughing that people are sacrificing folks to the gods when they really didn't need to.
How would the Cataclysm (and the absence of the gods) affect Maztican culture? Would the human sacrifice in Maztica work better as some sort of attempt to bring back divine magic?
With the gods leaving the world, the Mazticans sought out new gods. In trying to appease them, they began dealing in human sacrifice. Think of the Seekers here. Chemosh would have his eyes on this group and eventually try to take them over. I'm thinking of a very charismatic warlock leading this group.

Meanwhile, a group of heroes form. Perhaps they try to bring back the orders of the Eagle and Jaguar Knights. They seek out divine magic - the power of pluma and hishna, and the balance in between.

At some point, dragons come into play. Takhisis may come into place here. Rather than the good guys having dragons, we would see couatls and the return of Qotal.
How would the War of the Lance and draconians work with a Mezoamerican theme?

Is there anything in Mezoamerican mythology that would be especially good to give a Dragonlance reboot?

Would draconians even make an appearance?

Not sure on mytholody. I may have to look at that closer.
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Re: If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

Post by Seethyr » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:01 am

I would love to see a set of draconians based off of the sole native Maztican dragon- the tlalocouatl. Two headed draconians perhaps?
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Re: If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

Post by Big Mac » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:56 pm

Dragonhelm wrote:Before I give my take on this, I want to start with a quote from Margaret Weis.
Margaret Weis wrote:"Dragonlance is a story of love and friendship set against a backdrop of war. "
- Margaret Weis
So with that being said, there would be a war going on, and the heroes would be friends who would have to battle against it.
That's interesting.

I'm pretty sure I've read plenty of Dragonlance stories that do not have war elements to them. They have been before or after the war, but the war has not been a major element.

Douglas Niles did have a war going on in the Maztica trilogy. I guess that the plot of Ironhelm, Viperhand and Feathered Dragon could be rebooted in order to give it themes similar to the War of the Lance. (You would just have to replace the invading Amnians with a faction of Krynnish people.)
Dragonhelm wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Obviously the Maztican gods would need to be replaced with the Dragonlance gods, but is there obvious roles that each Dragonlance deity could take on?

Which deities would be connected to Eagle Knights and Jaguar Knights?
Kiri-Jolith for Eagle Knights. Maybe Sargonnas or Takhisis for the Jaguar Knights?
Ohh! Sargonnas sounds good. He is the deity the Minotaours like, isn't he?
Dragonhelm wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Would you connect Pluma and Hishna to regular deities or would they be better off associated with two of the three moons?
The moons.
Thanks.
Dragonhelm wrote:
Big Mac wrote:If Pluma was tied to Solinari and Hishna was tied to Nuitari, what could Lunitari be tied to?
Bendu, the one in the middle. :D
Bendu? :?
Dragonhelm wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Would Takhisis be the obvious deity to have human sacrifice dedicated to her or would you go for another deity, like Chemosh?
Chemosh might work, as he represents fatalism. I think Hiddukel would work well too. I could see him just laughing that people are sacrificing folks to the gods when they really didn't need to.
Does either Chemosh or Hiddukel have any sort of relationship with volcanoes? :)
Dragonhelm wrote:
Big Mac wrote:How would the Cataclysm (and the absence of the gods) affect Maztican culture? Would the human sacrifice in Maztica work better as some sort of attempt to bring back divine magic?
With the gods leaving the world, the Mazticans sought out new gods. In trying to appease them, they began dealing in human sacrifice. Think of the Seekers here. Chemosh would have his eyes on this group and eventually try to take them over. I'm thinking of a very charismatic warlock leading this group.

Meanwhile, a group of heroes form. Perhaps they try to bring back the orders of the Eagle and Jaguar Knights. They seek out divine magic - the power of pluma and hishna, and the balance in between.
I don't even think that Krynnish-Mazticans need to turn to new (false) gods. I think the human sacrifice thing works just fine as a "the deities are angry with us - we have to appease them" plot. And with sacrifices tying into Flowery Wars (and you saying that Margaret Weis thinks that war is an important Dragonlance theme) a bunch of cities all sending out Eagle Knights and Jaguar Knights to capture sacrificial victims. The sacrifices don't actually need to bring back the gods. People just need to buy into the idea that they will bring back the gods.

Having said that, a bit of sorcery could be used to trick people into thinking that sacrificial rituals have brought the gods back a bit.
Dragonhelm wrote:At some point, dragons come into play. Takhisis may come into place here. Rather than the good guys having dragons, we would see couatls and the return of Qotal.
If the people of Krynnish-Maztica believe that one of the deities (Kiri-Jolith, Solina or Paladine) is a feathered dragon, there would probably be feathered dragons of at least one type on the continent.
Dragonhelm wrote:
Big Mac wrote:How would the War of the Lance and draconians work with a Mezoamerican theme?

Is there anything in Mezoamerican mythology that would be especially good to give a Dragonlance reboot?
Would draconians even make an appearance?
Good point.

I suppose that, following the events of the War of the Lance, the dragon armies could try sailing across the sea (copying the Amnians) to try to take over a new Krynnish-Maztica continent.

But, yes. There is probably no "need" for draconians. There is a world-changing effect at the end of the Maztica trilogy that causes humans to turn into a number of generic monster races. Perhaps that could be rebooted to work with typica Dragonlance monster races.
Dragonhelm wrote:Not sure on mytholody. I may have to look at that closer.
Mezoamerican people seem to be more in touch with the land. More like the nomadic races in Dragonlance. I wonder what you would get if you removed all of the "civilised" races of Dragonlance and extrapolated from tribes similar to the one that Goldmoon hailed from and give them cites full of step pyramids and other Mezoamerican structures.

Actually the Taladas trilogy contains a city that has been occupied by yaggol. Perhaps that could be the basis of Krynnish-Maztican cities.
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Re: If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

Post by Big Mac » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:57 pm

Seethyr wrote:I would love to see a set of draconians based off of the sole native Maztican dragon- the tlalocouatl. Two headed draconians perhaps?
It would need death throes. Do you have any ideas?
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Re: If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

Post by night_druid » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:12 pm

Seethyr wrote:I would love to see a set of draconians based off of the sole native Maztican dragon- the tlalocouatl. Two headed draconians perhaps?
Couatl-draconians. Aka Feathered Draconians. :P
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Re: If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

Post by Havard » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:51 pm

night_druid wrote:
Seethyr wrote:I would love to see a set of draconians based off of the sole native Maztican dragon- the tlalocouatl. Two headed draconians perhaps?
Couatl-draconians. Aka Feathered Draconians. :P
I LOVE this idea! :)

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Re: If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

Post by Seethyr » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:27 pm

Havard wrote:
night_druid wrote:
Seethyr wrote:I would love to see a set of draconians based off of the sole native Maztican dragon- the tlalocouatl. Two headed draconians perhaps?
Couatl-draconians. Aka Feathered Draconians. :P
I LOVE this idea! :)

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Absolutely but I’m still coming up short on their death throes. If it’s a tlalocouatl connection it would have to be water based.
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Re: If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

Post by Havard » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:37 pm

Seethyr wrote:Absolutely but I’m still coming up short on their death throes. If it’s a tlalocouatl connection it would have to be water based.
Could freezing to ice or exploding into ice shards be appropriate?

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Re: If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

Post by night_druid » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:06 pm

Seethyr wrote:
Havard wrote:
night_druid wrote:
Seethyr wrote:I would love to see a set of draconians based off of the sole native Maztican dragon- the tlalocouatl. Two headed draconians perhaps?
Couatl-draconians. Aka Feathered Draconians. :P
I LOVE this idea! :)

-Havard
Absolutely but I’m still coming up short on their death throes. If it’s a tlalocouatl connection it would have to be water based.
For feathered draconians? Body dissolves into a black goo, from which erupt 3-12 vipers that scurry off in all directions (and may bite the slayer before disappearing into the underbrush)
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Re: If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

Post by night_druid » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:38 am

My take on the feathered draconian concept. :)

Couak
Climate/Terrain: Any, but usually tropical, subtropical, and temperate/Forest
Frequency: Uncommon
Organization: Band
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Special
Intelligence: Highly (13-14)
Treasure: Mx2,Q, (U,Y)
Alignment: Lawful evil
No. Appearing: 2-20
Armor Class: 3
Movement: 6, Glide 18, Fl 18 (D)
Hit Dice: 4
THAC0: 17
No. of Attacks: 3 or 1
Damage/Attack: 1-4/1-4/1-8 or by weapon
Special Attacks: Spells, constriction
Special Defenses: +2 bonus to saves
Magic Resistance: 20%
Size: M (6’ tall, 10’ long)
Morale: Elite (13)
XP Value: 1,400

The famed “feathered draconian” of the steaming jungles of Iztica are the Couak, derived from the stolen eggs of couatl. They are unique of the draconians in that their bodies are covered in bright, colorful feathers instead of reptilian scales. They are also unique in that their lower bodies are serpentine rather than having a pair of legs. Their eyes are dull yellow with reptilian slits.
Couaks are incapable of running, but can glide like other draconians. They are also capable of true flight, having greater speed and grace in the air than on the ground.
Couaks eschew armor as cumbersome and restrictive. They often wear brightly colored head-dresses, cloaks, and jewelry made from gold and turquoise.
Couaks fanatically worship Takhisis. They conduct elaborate ceremonies in her honor which involve the bloody sacrifice of captives.
Combat: Couaks relish the suffering of their victims, and constantly invent new methods of torture to inflict on their captives. Of the draconians, Couaks take the most prisoners. For most victims, being taken alive is far crueler than a quick death.
Couaks are stealthy fighters, preferring ambush over pitched battle. They prefer to attack from the air, hurling missile weapons like darts, javelins, or blow-darts from above. In rainforests and jungles, they fly from tree to tree, raining missiles and spells down on their opponents from all directions to keep them off-balance and disoriented until the Couaks feel that their opponents have been sufficiently “softened up” for them to move in to be subdued quickly. Should resistance prove stiffer than expected, the Couak will retreat until they can come up with a new strategy.
Couaks are magic users and can cast spells as 4th level wizards. Preferred spells include change self, charm person, magic missile, shocking grasp, ESP, hypnotic pattern, invisibility, ray of enfeeblement, and web. Some Couaks (20% chance) can cast spells as per 4th level priests. Couak priests have access to the spheres of all, animal, charm, combat, divination, and healing.
Couaks attack with their claws for 1d4 points of damage each and their serpentine tail for 1d8 points of damage. If they strike with their tail for a natural twenty, they can constrict their opponent next round, restricting their opponent’s movements and automatically causing 2d6 points of damage. Couaks favor an obsidian-lined sword of their own design that causes 1d10 points of damage.
Couaks gain a +2 bonus to all saving throws.
When a Couak reaches 0 hit points, it will dissolve into a pool of black, oily substance. One round latter, 3-12 colorful serpents will burst from the pool and scatter in all directions. The pool evaporates 1d6 rounds later. Any clothing worn or items carried by the Couak are lost when it dies.
Habitat/Society: Couak bands dwell in secluded jungle ruins. Slaves are kept to do physical labor for their masters, particularly construction of crude temples to honor Takhisis. Those very same slaves often find themselves as the first sacrifices once the altar is complete. They raid nearby settlements for food, alcohol, and most importantly, slaves. They are fond of gold and jewelry.
Ecology: Couak are absolute fanatics, distaining the other draconian races as not being devoted worshippers. They may ally with an Aurak on occasion although only until the Couak attempt to sacrifice the Aurak in an elaborate ceremony.
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Re: If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

Post by maddog » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:10 am

I have nothing to add to this other than to suggest that the idea become fleshed out into reality. It has at it's core the two settings that I love but have never truly been able to run successfully with my group. This really has my interest. :D

It's like "you put your chocolate in my peanut butter" kinda thing.

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Re: If Maztica was on Krynn, what would be different?

Post by Jürgen Hubert » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:27 am

When combining the two settings, you should be careful about tonal clash. Krynn is in part inspired by Christian/Mormon beliefs of cosmic struggles between Good and Evil. Aztec philosophy, on the other hand, really is not - in it, the universe is constantly re-created by opposing forces, but the underlying force of the universe itself ("teotl") is amoral.

So you should probably decide what you want - do you want a region of Krynn with Aztec trappings, or do you want to portray the people of Ansalon as being fundamentally mistaken about the nature of the divine?
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