Page 1 of 1

Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:13 pm
by Havard
Trying to get an overview of the timeline

WAR OF THE LANCE
351-352 AC: Events of the Chronicles
356-357 AC: Events of Legends
383 AC: Dragons of Summer Flame
384 AC Corresponds to Forgotten Realms' DR 1371

AGE OF MORTALS
414 AC: Default Age of Mortals Campaign begins.
421 AC: The War of Souls
422 AC - Dark Disciple Trilogy
424-425 - Taladas Trilogy
425-427 Rise of Solamnia Trilogy
AC433 Goblin Nation: The Stonetellers, Volume Three

AC504 Corresponds to Current 5E Forgotten Realms Timeline

Sources:
http://www.raistlin.ca/timeline.aspx
http://dlnexus.com/lexicon/17770.aspx

Does this look right?

-Havard

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:36 am
by apotheot
the "current" 5e year is subjective. There is no canon consistency in matching the timelines of FR and DL. Attempts have been done using Spelljammer, as Ravenloft, Planescape, and the Wizards Three articles but all of these conflict somewhere. Though your proposed date some 80 years after the end of the War of Souls isn't a bad place for it, imho.

the final novel in the timeline is Stonetellers 3?, I had thought it was the end of the Fate of Thorbardin, which, but I am pretty sure they was the last published. Since both books are part 3 in a single story trilogy, I would have to check the books (currently packed away) to see if there are dates.

At first glance most other dates look ok except I am not sure about the default age of mortals one...would have to look at a timeline.
apotheot.

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:33 pm
by RobJN

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:35 pm
by Big Mac
I know I got warned about the timeline that came with Dragonlance Campaign Setting, but I can't remember exactly what I got told was wrong with it.

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:49 pm
by Big Mac
I just wanted to point out this was a link you posted was a link to the old Dragonlance Lexicon, which is no longer updated.
Havard wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:13 pm
http://dlnexus.com/lexicon/17770.aspx
Here is the new Dragonlance Lexcion article for 430 AC.

It's the same content, but new content (and improved navigation) is going to go onto the new Dragonlance Lexicon.

(The old Lexicon is mostly online now so that editors can make sure they have grabbed everything from it.)

I just filled in the last redlinks in the List of decades article.

I've been thinking about starting the List of years article, but it's going to be a massive undertaking. However, once it goes up, it will highlight all the years that never got given articles on the old Dragonlance Lexicon and the new editors will be able to start throwing up stub articles.

A feature you might like on the new Dragonlance Lexicon, is the "What links here" tool. That follows links backwards and means you can look for things that are not actually in articles (but which reference them).

Going back to that 430 AC article, we can see, from the What links here search for 430 AC article that several things that are not in the 430 AC article yet have a connection with the year. (One of those things is that Blayne Kerrigan became the Lord of Vingaard Keep.)

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:00 pm
by Havard
apotheot wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:36 am
the "current" 5e year is subjective. There is no canon consistency in matching the timelines of FR and DL. Attempts have been done using Spelljammer, as Ravenloft, Planescape, and the Wizards Three articles but all of these conflict somewhere. Though your proposed date some 80 years after the end of the War of Souls isn't a bad place for it, imho.
Thanks! I was basing that on some charts that I saved in my HD. Sadly I don't remember who to credit.

the final novel in the timeline is Stonetellers 3?, I had thought it was the end of the Fate of Thorbardin, which, but I am pretty sure they was the last published. Since both books are part 3 in a single story trilogy, I would have to check the books (currently packed away) to see if there are dates.
Fate of Thorbardin was not mentioned on the site I used for these references. The two previous books in the Dwarf Home Trilogy are set in AC433. Could all three books span across just a single year? If not, we might have information about a later year in Krynn's history.
At first glance most other dates look ok except I am not sure about the default age of mortals one...would have to look at a timeline.
I did some prelimiary work on this a few years ago, when trying to chronicle some of my own exploration of Krynn as a player. I think that is when I made note of that date.

Let me know if you find out anything more! :)

-Havard

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:19 pm
by Falconer
I would group the major events like this:


CLASSIC

1 PC: The Cataclysm (“Past” of Legends #1)
100 AC: The Dwarfgate War (“Past” of Legends #2)

351-352 AC: The War of the Lance (DL1-14 modules / Chronicles)
356-357 AC: The Blue Lady’s War (“Present” of Legends)

383 AC: The Chaos War (Dragons of Summer Flame)


FIFTH AGE

31-33 SC: Dragons of a New Age (novel trilogy and five modules)


WAR OF SOULS

34 SC: Battle Lines modules
35-38 SC: The Minotaur Wars
38 SC: The War of Souls


AGE OF MORTALS

39 SC: Age of Mortals Campaign (modules trilogy)
39 SC: The Dark Disciple trilogy
42-46 SC: The Rise of Solamnia

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:57 am
by apotheot
Falconer wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:19 pm

WAR OF SOULS

34 SC: Battle Lines modules
35-38 SC: The Minotaur Wars
38 SC: The War of Souls

pretty sure the Minotaur Wars dates are wrong..., the first book has the night of the great storm which starts the War of Souls, the second book directly calls out that it is happening in the 'previous book' update.

Apotheot

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:35 pm
by ripvanwormer
Havard wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:00 pm
apotheot wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:36 am
the "current" 5e year is subjective. There is no canon consistency in matching the timelines of FR and DL. Attempts have been done using Spelljammer, as Ravenloft, Planescape, and the Wizards Three articles but all of these conflict somewhere. Though your proposed date some 80 years after the end of the War of Souls isn't a bad place for it, imho.
Thanks! I was basing that on some charts that I saved in my HD. Sadly I don't remember who to credit.
Paul Westermeyer's Spelljammer timeline has this to say about Krynn-Toril timeline synchronization:
GMWestermeyer wrote:The Spelljammer novel series provides us with our firmest chronological intersection point, and that point intersects the Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms settings. The first Spelljammer novel, Beyond the Moons, is set on Krynn and is clearly set five years after the end of the War of the Lance (p76). The War of the Lance ended in 352 AC according to Dragonlance Adventures (p101), but that is really the year of the Whitestone Council. Given Teldin Moore's role as a muleskinner, and the continuing operations, his war likely ended in 353 AC (which other Dragonlance products list as the end of the War of the Lance). The second Spelljammer novel, Into the Void, is a Forgotten Realms crossover and is clearly set less then a year after Beyond the Moons (pp 63,168, & 172). "Novel Ideas" Dragon #196, an article providing a chronology of Realms fiction, sets Into the Void specifically in 1361 DR (p66). From this we get 1361 DR corresponding to 358 AC.

There are contradictory sources, however. The Ravenloft timeline has Lord Soth of Krynn entering the Demiplane of Fear in 357 AC, shortly after the Blue Lady's War (Dragonlance: Fifth Age, p22). It connects this to the year 720 in the Barovian calendar of Ravenloft (Domains of Dread, p17). It also has the Forgotten Realms elven vampire Jander Sunstar drawn from the Forgotten Realms into Ravenloft in 1098 DR in the Realms, and 452 in the Barovian calendar (Domains of Dread, p16, Villain's Lorebook, p16). However, "Novel Ideas" Dragon #196 places the Forgotten Realms/Ravenloft crossover novel in 1098 DR and 475 Barovian (p65). Following the Ravenloft/Dragonlance/Forgotten Realms link we have 1361 DR corresponding to 352 or 375 AC.

The Planescape accessory On Hallowed Ground also provides a contradiction. It states that the events of the Dragonlance novel, Dragons of Summer Flame, occurred recently (p164). The novel is set in 383 AC. It also states that the Time of Troubles occurred in the Forgotten Realms just over twelve years ago (p168). The Time of Troubles was in 1358 DR, so that would link 1370 DR and 383 AC. Using this as an intersection 1361 DR would correspond to 374 AC.

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:08 am
by apotheot
ripvanwormer wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:35 pm
Havard wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:00 pm
apotheot wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:36 am
the "current" 5e year is subjective. There is no canon consistency in matching the timelines of FR and DL. Attempts have been done using Spelljammer, as Ravenloft, Planescape, and the Wizards Three articles but all of these conflict somewhere. Though your proposed date some 80 years after the end of the War of Souls isn't a bad place for it, imho.
Thanks! I was basing that on some charts that I saved in my HD. Sadly I don't remember who to credit.
Paul Westermeyer's Spelljammer timeline has this to say about Krynn-Toril timeline synchronization:
GMWestermeyer wrote:The Spelljammer novel series provides us with our firmest chronological intersection point, and that point intersects the Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms settings. The first Spelljammer novel, Beyond the Moons, is set on Krynn and is clearly set five years after the end of the War of the Lance (p76). The War of the Lance ended in 352 AC according to Dragonlance Adventures (p101), but that is really the year of the Whitestone Council. Given Teldin Moore's role as a muleskinner, and the continuing operations, his war likely ended in 353 AC (which other Dragonlance products list as the end of the War of the Lance). The second Spelljammer novel, Into the Void, is a Forgotten Realms crossover and is clearly set less then a year after Beyond the Moons (pp 63,168, & 172). "Novel Ideas" Dragon #196, an article providing a chronology of Realms fiction, sets Into the Void specifically in 1361 DR (p66). From this we get 1361 DR corresponding to 358 AC.

There are contradictory sources, however. The Ravenloft timeline has Lord Soth of Krynn entering the Demiplane of Fear in 357 AC, shortly after the Blue Lady's War (Dragonlance: Fifth Age, p22). It connects this to the year 720 in the Barovian calendar of Ravenloft (Domains of Dread, p17). It also has the Forgotten Realms elven vampire Jander Sunstar drawn from the Forgotten Realms into Ravenloft in 1098 DR in the Realms, and 452 in the Barovian calendar (Domains of Dread, p16, Villain's Lorebook, p16). However, "Novel Ideas" Dragon #196 places the Forgotten Realms/Ravenloft crossover novel in 1098 DR and 475 Barovian (p65). Following the Ravenloft/Dragonlance/Forgotten Realms link we have 1361 DR corresponding to 352 or 375 AC.

The Planescape accessory On Hallowed Ground also provides a contradiction. It states that the events of the Dragonlance novel, Dragons of Summer Flame, occurred recently (p164). The novel is set in 383 AC. It also states that the Time of Troubles occurred in the Forgotten Realms just over twelve years ago (p168). The Time of Troubles was in 1358 DR, so that would link 1370 DR and 383 AC. Using this as an intersection 1361 DR would correspond to 374 AC.
Yes, this is one of the "attempts" I have mentioned. It does ignore the Wizards Three articles, as well as some other Planescape works such as the Guide to the Astral, which seems to support the On Hallowed Ground assertion that the disappearance was relatively recent. The real issue is that time might not flow at the same rate in different Crystal Spheres. Since the start of player involvement in Dragonlance, on two different occasions time advanced much faster than it did on other worlds. (between the Blue Lady's War and Chaos War, and from the Chaos War the start of 5th Age.) so as I said, trying to date current 5e Dragonlance is pretty subjective.
-apotheot

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:52 pm
by GMWestermeyer
apotheot wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:08 am
Yes, this is one of the "attempts" I have mentioned. It does ignore the Wizards Three articles, as well as some other Planescape works such as the Guide to the Astral, which seems to support the On Hallowed Ground assertion that the disappearance was relatively recent. The real issue is that time might not flow at the same rate in different Crystal Spheres. Since the start of player involvement in Dragonlance, on two different occasions time advanced much faster than it did on other worlds. (between the Blue Lady's War and Chaos War, and from the Chaos War the start of 5th Age.) so as I said, trying to date current 5e Dragonlance is pretty subjective.
-apotheot
Maybe you didn't read the entire articlehttp://www.spelljammer.org/essays/histo ... eline.html.
There are four sources for the chronological intersection points between the settings: Spelljammer products, Ravenloft novels, Planescape products, and Dragon magazine articles. Because the sources contradict each other in places, a hierarchy is needed to determine which source takes precedence over the others. The natural trump is Spelljammer, since the purpose here is to create a Spelljammer timeline.
Thus
We can generally discount the Ravenloft and Planescape information here, because we've already established that Spelljammer products trump other sources for the purposes of this timeline, and because we have a contradiction within the Ravenloft timeline itself. So, we can designate 1361 DR and 358 AC as our first intersection point.
But the Dragon magazines do get discussed. They apply more to the Greyhawk intersections, since Greyhawk doesn't have a Spelljammer novel that provides a firm link. See here:
Dragon magazine provides an alternative correspondence. Ed Greenwood wrote a series of articles about the wizards Elminster, Mordenkainen, and Dalamar meeting in his home to discuss the magical affairs of Faerun, Oerth, and Ansalon. These articles reference some specific events in relation to each other, and are internally consistent (each successive article clearly occurs subsequent to the previous article). "Magic in the Evening" Dragon #185 states that the Forgotten Realms novel The Parched Sea, which "Novel Ideas" Dragon #196 dates to 1360 DR (p66), has recently occurred. "Magic in the Evening" Dragon #185 also states that the article is set prior to Vecna Lives (p62). Vecna Lives is set in 581 CY according to The Adventure Begins (p119). This would provide us with 1360 DR corresponding to 580 CY. The next two articles in the series bolster this conclusion, "The Wizards' Three" Dragon #188 (p32) is specifically set after Vecna Lives and "Three Wizards Too Many" Dragon #196 (p84) is set specifically after the beginning of the Greyhawk Wars in 582 CY (The Adventure Begins, p119).

Support for the Dragon article correspondence comes from comparing the Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms intersection with our firm Dragonlance/Forgotten Realms intersection. "Magic in the Evening" Dragon #185 clearly implies that the War of the Lance (353 AC) and the Blue Lady's War (357 AC) have just recently occurred. If 1361 DR equals 358 AC, and 1360 DR equals 580 CY, then the first article would take place shortly after the Blue Lady's War. On Hallowed Ground does provide a specific date of 1370 DR (p168) to compare with a 'current climate of war' sweeping Oerth (p166). The Greyhawk Wars officially end in 584 CY (From the Ashes: Atlas, p9), but wars between Iuz and Furyondy, and Nyrond and the Great Kingdom essentially continued. Certainly a 'climate of war' can be said to exist across Oerth for at least a decade after the end of the Greyhawk Wars.

We have, then, two conflicting intersections, 1361 DR with 564 CY, and 1361 DR with 581 CY. The Dragon articles provide the better choice, because they were written by Ed Greenwood, the creator of the Forgotten Realms, because they were written expressly to provide setting interactions, and because they place the two settings' internal chronology more closely inline with their publication histories. We can set our second intersection point at 1361 DR and 581 CY.

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:12 am
by apotheot
GMWestermeyer wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:52 pm

Maybe you didn't read the entire articlehttp://www.spelljammer.org/essays/histo ... eline.html.
Yes, I have and did. But as you yourself point out, the purpose of the timeline was to create a SPELLJAMMER based timeline. Once you start discounting other sources as secondary, it rather destroys objectivity. It also is only current with early 3e events, as 4e heavily implied that Takhisis was still alive. The work is an admirable attempt to reconcile things, and is impressive in and of itself, but it is still only an attempt. Though perhaps I made it unclear in my statement....it should have read "selectively ignore". Again, fine for what was being attempted, but also only one possible framework.

-apotheot

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:38 pm
by Big Mac
apotheot wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:08 am
The real issue is that time might not flow at the same rate in different Crystal Spheres. Since the start of player involvement in Dragonlance, on two different occasions time advanced much faster than it did on other worlds. (between the Blue Lady's War and Chaos War, and from the Chaos War the start of 5th Age.) so as I said, trying to date current 5e Dragonlance is pretty subjective.
I don't think I've ever read anything to suggest that different Spelljammer crystal spheres have time advancing at different speeds.

I remember reading something once that said something like: "The absence of information is not information".

So I would keep time the same everywhere.

But I think we are missing something here.

Let's go back to Havard's first post:
Havard wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:13 pm
AC504 Corresponds to Current 5E Forgotten Realms Timeline
Do we actually need to work out this date?

If we are planning a Dragonlance/Forgotten Realms crossover campaign (or something involving Spelljammer, Planescape or Ravenloft) maybe we do.

But if we just need a Dragonlance Timeline, then I would suggest that the TSR, WotC, Sovereign Press and MWP gaming products, Dragon and Dungeon Magazine articles, novels and comics are the only things we need to concern ourselves with.

Given the major time jump that WotC gave Forgotten Realms for the 4th Edition Realms product line, getting other campaign settings to "catch up" would require a ton of changes.

We don't know if a hypothetical 5e Dragonlance book would use a time jump or not...and won't know until they publish one.

We might be able to have a guess, from the 4th Edition Dark Sun and Eberron products or the Ghosts of Saltmarsh book. Do any of those things throw in a 100 odd year time jump to "catch up with the Realms"?

I don't recall ever hearing fans talking about a Dark Sun of Eberron time jump, but I've not read Ghosts of Saltmarsh yet.

So I agree that trying to work out a date for the 5e Realms products on the Dragonlance timeline (which I am not convinced will be the date of a hypothetical 5e Dragonlance product) is subjective. But if you look at the dates from Paul's research (and any other research that anyone else can provide) I would be inclined to infer a constant rate of time in all D&D worlds. So if - for argument's sake - I decided there was an error margin of say 17 years (from 581 CY minus 564 CY) from the results, I would be inclined to extrapolate the same 17 year error margin to the 1st Edition Era, 2nd Edition Era, 3rd Edition Era, 4th Edition Era and 5th Edition Era.

However, there is another thing to consider and that is the "Takhisis steals Krynn" thing. During the Second Cataclysm Takhisis manages to distract all the gods (and presumaby the High God too) and moves Krynn to another place, with a different sun and a different moon. I don't know if this is supposed to be a different crystal sphere (in Spelljammer terms) or a different plane (in Planescape terms). I have not read that era of novels yet, but I don't think it's ever explained.

The other gods eventually turn up, but the question of time passing differently (for Krynn and the rest of Krynnspace) could apply. We don't have any evidence.

And all existing links to Spelljammer and Planescape might have been broken by this Second Cataclysm plotline. (In some ways the Second Cataclysm is as radical a change for Dragonlance, as the Spellplague is for Forgotten Realms. Both throw up challenges that can be an opportunity for some fans or a headach for others.)

I think that these sort of questions are a big rabbit hole that takes us away from working out the Dragonlance timeline itself. So I think it would probably be best to focus on the timeline an have spin off discussions for how Krynn relates to other settings.

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:16 pm
by Big Mac
apotheot wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:12 am
Once you start discounting other sources as secondary, it rather destroys objectivity. It also is only current with early 3e events, as 4e heavily implied that Takhisis was still alive.
The approach I was trying to go with for Spelljammer Wiki (which I've long neglected) was to mark secondary sources by type and have individual inline citations for specific facts. That was so that all facts could be included from a neutral-point-of-view (similar but not the same as Wikipedia's point-of-view). But with the citations allowing people who dislike specific types of canon or secondary sources to ignore sections of articles. (I've had a bunch of people come along, since then and just throw up uncitated content. So I have no clue what some of the "facts" on articles are.)

People say the same about facts that come from computer game canon, novel canon or comic canon. Some fans even discount the work of specific D&D designers or hold one designer as being more important than another.

And some folks assume that later sources trump earlier sources (i.e. retcon the canon) when it's possible that a change could be an unintentional change due to a new designer or editor not having read a specific older book.

Getting back to Dragonlance, we have an interesting situation where TSR booted out Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis (and told TSR staff not to talk to them) during the late 2nd Edition/SAGA Era. Then we have Wizards of the Coast's novel department continuing with Dragonlance novels, while the RPG line was farmed out to Sovereign Press (and later taken over by MWP).

SP/MWP published some products for the Age of Mortals Era and other products for the War of the Lance Era. (That's kind of like 3e Realms splitting the product line into new stuff and stuff set before the Time of Troubles.)

So we have new Dragonlance cannon...and we have new-old Dragonlance cannon. And we have new-old canon being written by a company that does not have a Planescape, Spelljammer or Ravenloft licence. (If the 3e Dragonlance products were written in-house, there could be sidebars about Lord Soth in Ravenloft or Tinker Gnomes visiting Krynnspace.)

There is new-old canon in Forgotten Realms material too. (Like the historical story of Dragons trying to destroy the King Killer Star blowing up part of Selûne and creating the Tears of Selûne. But MWP goes beyond hints at the past.

There are continuity conflicts between Dragonlance canon and crossover canon that ties into Dragonlance. (Conflicts that MWP either could not deal with...or didn't want to dig up.)

And if you are really trying to be objective, the only way to deal with some of these things (like the Krynnspace world that does not appear in Dragonlance canon or the other Krynnspace world that does not appear in Spelljammer canon) is to bloat out documents with two or more conflicting visions of the same thing. That could inform some readers but confuse others.
apotheot wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:12 am
The work is an admirable attempt to reconcile things, and is impressive in and of itself, but it is still only an attempt. Though perhaps I made it unclear in my statement....it should have read "selectively ignore". Again, fine for what was being attempted, but also only one possible framework.
If you have looked at the version of Paul''s timeline on Beyond the Moons, that's an older version. He has come up with a newer version, since then (that Static is not hosting on BtM). But I do think he is still excluding source material he has not bought from the 3rd Edition Era onwards.

There must be one or more Dragonlance fans that have created a study of the Dragonlance timeline.

I don't think I have read any 4th Edition Era sources on Dragonlance, so I wouldn't be able to contribute much to a Dragonlance timeline that was including new-old DL canon from the 4e Era.

If we were to set out to create a Dragonlance timeline that is as detailed (or more detailed - there is after all more DL canon than SJ canon) than GM Westermeyer's Spelljammer timeline, I'm pretty sure we would have as at least many issues to deal with as he did. :)

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:47 pm
by Big Mac
GMWestermeyer wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:09 am
But you should do one yourself, do better, and don't forget to cite your sources and explain your reasoning.

None of my timelines will ever include 4e events, or most 3e events, so yeah, if that's what you care about you won't find it there.
I was thinking of doing my own Krynnspace timeline, at some point.

I know that your early Beyond the Moons timeline (from 2006) didn't mention anything about the Kingpriest or the asteroid that dropped out of Wildspace to land on his head.

And I didn't see a mention of the arrival of the Yaggol (who are devolved Illithids) or the arrival of the Shadowpeople (who might be related to the Hadozee).

The trouble is that the canon only says so much stuff about individual celestial bodies in Krynnspace. So you would end up with Krynn's canon (and moreso Ansalon's canon) taking up much much more space than the rest of the crystal sphere.

I figured that no central timeline can have details of everything, without being totally cluttered. But that a Krynnspace timeline could take the most important highlights from a Dragonlance timeline and the most important non-Krynnspace highlights from a Spelljammer timeline...

...and then add in fanon details that were designed to avoid causing continuity conflicts with either the detailed Dragonlance timeline or the detailed Spelljammer timeline.

I've got nothing against 3rd Edition, 4th Edition or 5th Edition material, but I would much rather focus on expanding the worlds of Krynnspace (and dealing with that world that Spelljammer dropped) than trying to figure out how to deal with Krynnspace after Krynn vanishes.

I think that a clean Dragonlance timeline could be useful to me. :)

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:00 pm
by Big Mac
I just saw that you are looking for Key Events, Havard.

I'd say you want the date that Lord Soth was turned into a Death Knight.

You also want the date that the Kingpriest took power and the date that he sought to take the power of the gods...and they dropped an asteroid on his head.

A bunch of elves got swept away in ships...and ended up in Taladas.

The eggs of the good dragons were stolen by evil dragons (to blackmail the good dragons into not helping humans). Then those eggs were transformed into evil draconians via rituals.

IIRC, one of the leaders of the Dragonarmies, was a dark elf (not a drow) living South of Ansalon and commanding white dragons. The year he was born and the year he moved there might be notable.

The Dwarves of Thorbardin locked their doors to surface dwarven clans (after The Cataclysm). The date that happened, as well as the date that Thorbardin was built, could be notable.

Solamnia is a nation that was created at some point well before The Cataclysm. That's relevant.

You have the Legend of Huma (and his female dragon companion). That's an iconic time from Krynn's past.

Fistandantilus is a dead wizard, from Krynn's past, who attempted to reach forward, turn Raistlin into a powerful wizard, and eventually take over his body. So you need dates in the past related to him being born and contacting Raistlin.

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:37 pm
by Big Mac
RobJN wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:33 pm
Here you go, Havard: http://www.dlnexus.com/products/chronological.aspx
I'm finding it a bit hard to find a chronological list on the Nexus 2.0 website (that page has gone now).

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:41 pm
by RobJN
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:37 pm
RobJN wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:33 pm
Here you go, Havard: http://www.dlnexus.com/products/chronological.aspx
I'm finding it a bit hard to find a chronological list on the Nexus 2.0 website (that page has gone now).
Well crap. Here, though, is the last, most recent Wayback Machine archive of that page.

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:38 pm
by apotheot
Oi, a lot of little nitpicks here.
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:16 pm
apotheot wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:12 am
Once you start discounting other sources as secondary, it rather destroys objectivity. It also is only current with early 3e events, as 4e heavily implied that Takhisis was still alive.
The approach I was trying to go with for Spelljammer Wiki (which I've long neglected) was to mark secondary sources by type and have individual inline citations for specific facts. That was so that all facts could be included from a neutral-point-of-view (similar but not the same as Wikipedia's point-of-view). But with the citations allowing people who dislike specific types of canon or secondary sources to ignore sections of articles. (I've had a bunch of people come along, since then and just throw up uncitated content. So I have no clue what some of the "facts" on articles are.)
Very good and fair, from the perspective of Spelljammer. If it were done for Dragonlance, the only things that would matter are direct Dragonlance crossovers with other settings. Other connections, like say between Forgotten Realms and Ravenloft, would be considered secondary for that and not ascribed as much weight. Indeed, there WAS one of these for Dragonlance back on the old Wotc boards. It was very different than the one done by Paul. Likewise, John Mangrum did one for Ravenloft.
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:16 pm
People say the same about facts that come from computer game canon, novel canon or comic canon. Some fans even discount the work of specific D&D designers or hold one designer as being more important than another.

And some folks assume that later sources trump earlier sources (i.e. retcon the canon) when it's possible that a change could be an unintentional change due to a new designer or editor not having read a specific older book.
To be fair about that last part, that IS the general rule as stated by both WotC and TSR before it. Though accidents do happen. Usually these will get cleaned up with a later publication.
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:16 pm
Getting back to Dragonlance, we have an interesting situation where TSR booted out Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis (and told TSR staff not to talk to them) during the late 2nd Edition/SAGA Era. Then we have Wizards of the Coast's novel department continuing with Dragonlance novels, while the RPG line was farmed out to Sovereign Press (and later taken over by MWP).

SP/MWP published some products for the Age of Mortals Era and other products for the War of the Lance Era. (That's kind of like 3e Realms splitting the product line into new stuff and stuff set before the Time of Troubles.)
Not Quite. Sovereign Press was owned by Weis and her husband at the time Don Perrin. The DL setting was officially licenced to SP, on the condition that Wotc get a huge chunk of the profits (possibly all) from the setting book (the most profitable one). Once Perrin was out of the picture, the company was reorganized into MWP, though they kept the licence until WotC took it back in preparation for 4e. A closer analogy might be what happened with Ravenloft, where due to cross-licencing concerns Arthous/WW was unable to even use Soth's name or call him a Death Knight, even though he was no longer within the setting.

Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:16 pm
So we have new Dragonlance cannon...and we have new-old Dragonlance cannon. And we have new-old canon being written by a company that does not have a Planescape, Spelljammer or Ravenloft licence. (If the 3e Dragonlance products were written in-house, there could be sidebars about Lord Soth in Ravenloft or Tinker Gnomes visiting Krynnspace.)
This all looks like one canon to me. Since Wotc has not decided to publish their own "reimagining" of the setting retconning out not only the SP/MWP game work, but also the Wotc produced novel line, it is all one thing.
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:16 pm
There is new-old canon in Forgotten Realms material too. (Like the historical story of Dragons trying to destroy the King Killer Star blowing up part of Selûne and creating the Tears of Selûne. But MWP goes beyond hints at the past.

There are continuity conflicts between Dragonlance canon and crossover canon that ties into Dragonlance. (Conflicts that MWP either could not deal with...or didn't want to dig up.)
I agree with the first part there. MW and TH never wanted Dragonlance to be too interconnected with other settings. That came as a result of its popularity. An example of this would have been Lord Soth going to RL, which they were both against. So since they didn't want to deal with complicated continuity conflicts with other settings, they chose to ignore them in their work and even minorly mock them in the form of poking fun of the Dragonlance novel Darkness and Light.
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:16 pm
And if you are really trying to be objective, the only way to deal with some of these things (like the Krynnspace world that does not appear in Dragonlance canon or the other Krynnspace world that does not appear in Spelljammer canon) is to bloat out documents with two or more conflicting visions of the same thing. That could inform some readers but confuse others.
Exactly the point of my OP. Since there is conflicting evidence and multiple attempts have been made to correct it, connections with other settings are entirely subjective.

Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:16 pm
There must be one or more Dragonlance fans that have created a study of the Dragonlance timeline.

I don't think I have read any 4th Edition Era sources on Dragonlance, so I wouldn't be able to contribute much to a Dragonlance timeline that was including new-old DL canon from the 4e Era.

There is some minor things here and there. The new draconians I remember were likely in a web enhancement. One of the Drcaconomicons talks about Takhissis and Paladine as if they were still gods. I wonder if anyone has a full list of DL content or lore from 4e? Could make a good forum topic.
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:16 pm
If we were to set out to create a Dragonlance timeline that is as detailed (or more detailed - there is after all more DL canon than SJ canon) than GM Westermeyer's Spelljammer timeline, I'm pretty sure we would have as at least many issues to deal with as he did. :)
Agreed. Hence my original advice.

-Apotheot

Re: Dragonlance Timeline: Key Events

Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:28 pm
by Havard
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:00 pm
I just saw that you are looking for Key Events, Havard.

I'd say you want the date that Lord Soth was turned into a Death Knight.

You also want the date that the Kingpriest took power and the date that he sought to take the power of the gods...and they dropped an asteroid on his head.

A bunch of elves got swept away in ships...and ended up in Taladas.

The eggs of the good dragons were stolen by evil dragons (to blackmail the good dragons into not helping humans). Then those eggs were transformed into evil draconians via rituals.

IIRC, one of the leaders of the Dragonarmies, was a dark elf (not a drow) living South of Ansalon and commanding white dragons. The year he was born and the year he moved there might be notable.

The Dwarves of Thorbardin locked their doors to surface dwarven clans (after The Cataclysm). The date that happened, as well as the date that Thorbardin was built, could be notable.

Solamnia is a nation that was created at some point well before The Cataclysm. That's relevant.

You have the Legend of Huma (and his female dragon companion). That's an iconic time from Krynn's past.

Fistandantilus is a dead wizard, from Krynn's past, who attempted to reach forward, turn Raistlin into a powerful wizard, and eventually take over his body. So you need dates in the past related to him being born and contacting Raistlin.

Those are good items for Key Events David. I will have to look up those. :)

-Havard