Etymology of "awnsheghlien"

[agathokles]

Having a main character (that you kill gruesomely, heh) called Eddard Stark (Ed Stark being BR author) is a heck of a coincidence. One wonders at the symbolism!

lol. Yeah, that's a hard one to overlook...

Still, that is about the only striking similarity -- almost everything else is what you would expect from two works influenced by RW medieval and renaissance history mixed with fantasy. Moreover, both Martin's first book and the Birthright corebook date 1995-1996, and both have roots in earlier works. Unless there was some contact between Martin and one or more Birthright authors earlier than 1995, a coincidence is not to be discarded.

GP

[Val.S]

We can't discard it as a possibility, no. Some of the links are fairly tenuous, but then we get Ed Stark and this in particular :-

9) Azrai is the past evil god of BR. Azor-ahai is an ancient good god in Song of Ice and Fire

Is there a real world analog for this name that might have provided a common inspiration?

[Chimpman]

We can't discard it as a possibility, no. Some of the links are fairly tenuous, but then we get Ed Stark and this in particular :-

9) Azrai is the past evil god of BR. Azor-ahai is an ancient good god in Song of Ice and Fire

Is there a real world analog for this name that might have provided a common inspiration?

Here is a quote I pulled from wikipedia:

Atar, another pronunciation for Persian "Azar" meaning "fire"

IIRC, Azor-ahai in ASoFI is a god of fire.

As an aside, I'm also not so sure that he is a god of good... GRRM tends to deal more in shades of gray, but if I had to qualify Azor in some way, it would not be with the term "good". Creepy maybe. But not good.

EDIT: Oops... here is another one I pulled off some random site

Atar - The Persian god of all fire and of purity, son of Ahura Mazda.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that Azor has his origins in Atar/Azar.

[Marco Fossati]

of course I didn't mean to accuse Martin of plagiarism...

maybe, like Agathokles has written above, it's only due by the same influences or archetypes...

[agathokles]

We can't discard it as a possibility, no. Some of the links are fairly tenuous, but then we get Ed Stark and this in particular :-

9) Azrai is the past evil god of BR. Azor-ahai is an ancient good god in Song of Ice and Fire

Is there a real world analog for this name that might have provided a common inspiration?

Here is a quote I pulled from wikipedia:

Atar, another pronunciation for Persian "Azar" meaning "fire"

IIRC, Azor-ahai in ASoFI is a god of fire.

Also, the Azer are a race of fire elemental dwarves in AD&D.

If you want another pseudo-coincidence, you'll note that the southern continent in Cerilia is named Aduria, and adur is another form of azar/atar/adar.

GP

[Val.S]

I'll accept that plagarism is perhaps too strong a term, but if you'll forgive me for saying, your above examples are as, if not more, tenuous as to inspirations than the various similarities posted.

It can be boiled down as 'A persian god with 'Az' at the front means all god names with Az might be extrapolated from it, -a mazda has an 'a' like 'ahai' does and the fact that one of countless fire god's has Az at the front'

(I forget what Azrai's portfolio was? Magic rather than fire wasn't it?) If so that makes Azer a far less likely 'common ancestor' when inspiration was being sought.

In any case, even if we assume Azer as the base, the more important similarity is the -rai to -o[r-(ah)ai]. Rai/hai doesn't fit with the persian base so both authors having a similar naming convergence is hard to justify, whereas the attenuation of the third syllable of the Birthright name into the Song god's name seems a fairly plausible possibility for the Birthright name to have influenced the Song name.

Generally speaking, the simpler the explaination the more likely, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find some cross pollination may have gone on, whereas the convergence of two totally unrelated sources, covering very similar genre conventions, during a very confined space of time, seems far less likely.

[Chimpman]

I guess the point I was trying to make is this:
Azar = Persian god of fire.
Azor-ahai = Song god of fire.
Azrai = BR evil god of magic.

To be perfectly honest when I see the name Azrai, the first association that comes to mind is Azrael (which according to both christian and islamic traditions is the angel of death). This may or may not have been an influence in the creation of Azrai... it seems not to fit perfectly... but on occasion people do have a tendency to associate 'death' with 'evil', so I wouldn't rule out the possibility.

Whether this is the case or not however, really doesn't matter. Because I'm not seeing any similarity at all between the two deities (other than the 'ai' in both their names).

So in my mind I don't actually see any cross pollination at all (at least using this specific example). We have two totally different gods, with two totally different backgrounds.

Having said all of that, none of the above actually precludes the possibility of cross pollination (which in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing), and I'd be very curious to know the real answer. Unfortunately I'm in the position now of trying to guess at the motivations and intentions of two different authors, neither of which I know personally. That means all of this is just conjecture.

[agathokles]

I'll accept that plagarism is perhaps too strong a term, but if you'll forgive me for saying, your above examples are as, if not more, tenuous as to inspirations than the various similarities posted.

Indeed, that's to say that it is fairly easy to find this kind of similarity, regardless of where you look -- Azrai and Azor-ahai are not more related than Azar and Azor-hai (at least, here you have a potential connection, as the persian name has been used elsewhere and shares a connection with fire with Martin's creation, while the only connection between Azrai and Azor-ahai is that they are both fictional gods).

As to the timing, note that it is easier to draw inspiration from things you've read, so the temporal closeness is a factor against the possibility of an inspiration rather than in favor.

Finally, I don't think the issue is whether there is plagiarism or not (even if all claimed similarity where actually intended, it wouldn't be plagiarism -- for example, Raymond Feist in Riftwar uses an elven language clearly based on Sindarin, without any plagiarism issue that I know of). Rather, the issue is: did Martin really used "Eddard Stark" because he knew TSR's Ed Stark?
That, I'm fairly curious to know (I'm not at all a fan of Martin's work -- like you, I couldn't stomach more than the first book -- it's just that I'd like to know if there's a story behind the name).

GP

[Val.S]

Thanks for the replies Chimpman & Agathokles, I often agonise that I may come across as too dogmatic in my posts where that's not the intent. It certainly would be interesting to know if there was any contact/history between Martin and Stark.

I take your point about plagarism being an incorrect term to apply, I lazily threw it out there to represent an opposite extreme.

Must admit I'm a bit fuzzy on the exact timing of book vs. game releases, I had thought that Birthright appeared before ASoI&F but am really not sure.

Azrael would tend to be my first thought as to a possible inspiration for Azrai also, it's a useful trick to echo/riff off of RW references in ones work as it makes the names/scenarios 'feel' more authentic for the reader (and the writer, for that matter). It's a technique that both Birthright and Mystara in particular make extensive and (generally) good use of.

[Idabrius]

While Birthright may have been released around the time Martin was planning ASIAF, the Birthright-novel Kinslayer predates ASIAF by QUITE some time, as it was written when Ed Stark was in college and he kept it around for years in a box in his house. It did not become Birthright until fairly late when he dredged it up to turn it into a game setting.

[agathokles]

While Birthright may have been released around the time Martin was planning ASIAF, the Birthright-novel Kinslayer predates ASIAF by QUITE some time, as it was written when Ed Stark was in college and he kept it around for years in a box in his house. It did not become Birthright until fairly late when he dredged it up to turn it into a game setting.

Sure, but being closed in a box doesn't make it easy to use as inspiration

GP

[rabindranath72]

While Birthright may have been released around the time Martin was planning ASIAF, the Birthright-novel Kinslayer predates ASIAF by QUITE some time, as it was written when Ed Stark was in college and he kept it around for years in a box in his house. It did not become Birthright until fairly late when he dredged it up to turn it into a game setting.

Kingslayer was written by Rich Baker, the original author of Birthright. Ed Stark was a later developer for the line.

[RobJN]

Having a main character (that you kill gruesomely, heh) called Eddard Stark (Ed Stark being BR author) is a heck of a coincidence. One wonders at the symbolism!

Late to the party, but... I see where you're heading with this.

*waits for it....*