My take on Eberron Deities and Planes

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T'masD'Mazz
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My take on Eberron Deities and Planes

Post by T'masD'Mazz » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:57 pm

I do not like the fact that Eberron Deities existence is disputable nor that it's planes are so different from regular planes.
My reasoning is: why the Dragon Below cultists and the Demon cultists must have the advantage to know for sure that theyr deities, albeit imprisoned, exists, and the Vessels do not?
So, that's my take on that:
The fifteen deities of the Soreign Host and theyr aspects (which empower other faiths clerics) do exist. They resides in theyr realms in the planes, which are not normally accessible to living human. The gods obey the Progenitor Dragons edicts, and can walk on Eberron and directly act only in very special occasions. They are thus not able to solve the doctrinal issues.
The planes are either alternatively named, or they are location of the regular planes, or places where the regular planes touches. (I also contest a couple of alignements)

So, we have the 15 deities:

Arawai (N/G) Lives in the Bountyfull Fields in Daanvi (Arcadia)
Aureon (L/N) Lives in the Eternal Archive in Daanvi (Mechanus)
Balinor (N) Lives in the Hunter's Grove, in Lamannia (Beastlands)
Boldrei (L/G) Lives in the Wellcoming Hearth in Syrania (Elysium)
Dol Arrah (L/G) Lives in the Righteous Citadel in Syrania (Celestia)
Dol Dorn (C/G) Lives in the Brave Fort in Kythri (Ysgard)
Kol Korran (N) Lives in the Overflowing Vault in Thelanis (Outlands)
Olladra (N/G) Lives in the Feast Hall in Thelanis (Arborea)
Onatar (N/G) Lives in the Forge of Endless Wonders in Kythri (Plane of Fire)

The Devourer/Shurkaan (N/E) Lives in the Raging Maelstorm in Kythry (Plane of Water)
The Fury/Szorawai (C/E) Lives in the Burning Heart in Kythri (Abyss)
The Keeper/ Kol Turrant (N/E) Lives in the Abode of Souls in Dolurrh (Gray Wastes)
The Mockery/Dol Azur (N/E) Lives in the Bloody Dome in Shavarath (Acheron)
The Shadow/Meleon (L/E) (It's the name I think he would have given himself) Lives in the Dreaming Darkness in Dal Quor (Gehenna).
The Traveler (C/N) Wanders.

Those location, even if you do not share my vision, can be used as the abode of powerfull outsiders who venerate the mentioned deity. I changed the alignement of the Shadow because I wanted a L/E Soureign. I think the Fury works better as C/E.

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Re: My take on Eberron Deities and Planes

Post by Big Mac » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:59 am

Interesting.

Would you imagine a setup closer to Planescape, with Petitioners going to the same planes as their deities?
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Re: My take on Eberron Deities and Planes

Post by T'masD'Mazz » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:22 am

No, I would rather imagine all souls (Dragons and many Elves excluded) going to the Keeper's realm, from there they are transferred in Daanvi, were Aureon judges them; for each of them is than decided a proper afterlife. Given that the Keeper is evil, he could bargain with evil souls, offering them return on the material plane as his undead servants.

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Re: My take on Eberron Deities and Planes

Post by Big Mac » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:34 pm

T'masD'Mazz wrote:No, I would rather imagine all souls (Dragons and many Elves excluded) going to the Keeper's realm, from there they are transferred in Daanvi, were Aureon judges them; for each of them is than decided a proper afterlife. Given that the Keeper is evil, he could bargain with evil souls, offering them return on the material plane as his undead servants.
Sounds good.

I've always thought that Eberron needed a book along the lines of Manual of the Planes, to add more detail and allow GMs to run games there.

If you ever go down that route, and expand this stuff, I'd be interested to see what way you go.
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Re: My take on Eberron Deities and Planes

Post by T'masD'Mazz » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:25 pm

I agree, even keeping the cosmology and the Deities as they are, a Planes of Eberron book would have been quite usefull. My objectives are far less ambitious thought.

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Re: My take on Eberron Deities and Planes

Post by ThePurple » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:16 am

Big Mac wrote:I've always thought that Eberron needed a book along the lines of Manual of the Planes, to add more detail and allow GMs to run games there.
I think part of the problem with a MotP-style book for Eberron is that it would have drawn attention away from Eberron. Eberron isn't supposed to be a setting in which plane-jumping is a huge part of the campaign, which is why the primary manner in which the players interact with the planes is through those planes' interactions with Eberron. Even the inhabitants of the planes of Eberron see Eberron as the center of the universe, rather than as simply an irrelevant backwater as they see the prime material as being in most other settings.

I would definitely find a book about the various ways in which the planes of the setting interact with the prime material plane extremely interesting, but the setting doesn't really *need* a book that turns all of the planes into explicit adventuring locations. I would even argue that such a book would actively detract from the feel of the setting.

As to the OP, it's important to note that Cultists of the Dragon Below (which includes demon worshipers) don't actually worship *deities*. They worship non-deific entities *as if* they were deities. The divine magic they might receive doesn't come from those entities; it comes from *somewhere else entirely*. If you really wanted to point out manifest deities in the setting, you'd be better off bringing up the Silver Flame (which is a literally manifest energy with a voice, though it's important to mention that it's much greater than the CotSF, what with the Ghash'kaala worshiping the same energy but using it differently and with a different voice) or the Undying Court (which is a conglomerate deity that literally exists in Eberron physically; however, its ability to manifest outside of Aerenal is severely limited and still requires the presence of powerful believers when not manifesting locally). Even with those, there's still a *lot* of mystery about religion and what divine magic actually *is* in Eberron, especially since Eberron deviated from the norm by allowing clerics to have alignments that didn't actually match their religion's (like Cardinal Krozen being the de facto leader of the LG CotSF).

Your tweak of the planes (and the deities themselves) seems less like a way to solves a problem with the campaign setting and more like a way to make Eberron more like the vanilla campaign settings. Eberron deviated from those norms *for good reason*. It insisted on having mysteries and unanswered questions all over the place, and you're attempting to arbitrarily provide answers that match what players already expect based upon previous exposure to 3.X. I would probably respect the idea a bit more if you weren't trying so obviously to just map Eberron onto the Great Wheel cosmology.

Something else you may want to ask is, if there are known explicit manifestations of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six in Eberron, where are the literal manifestations of the other religions of Eberron? You're basically saying that these beliefs are *explicitly true* and, in doing so, all of the other religions are explicitly false. And, in a world like Eberron, where magic is science/technology, that would very quickly get analyzed, understood, and industrialized.

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Re: My take on Eberron Deities and Planes

Post by tetrasodium » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:45 pm

ThePurple wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I've always thought that Eberron needed a book along the lines of Manual of the Planes, to add more detail and allow GMs to run games there.
I think part of the problem with a MotP-style book for Eberron is that it would have drawn attention away from Eberron. Eberron isn't supposed to be a setting in which plane-jumping is a huge part of the campaign, which is why the primary manner in which the players interact with the planes is through those planes' interactions with Eberron. Even the inhabitants of the planes of Eberron see Eberron as the center of the universe, rather than as simply an irrelevant backwater as they see the prime material as being in most other settings.

I would definitely find a book about the various ways in which the planes of the setting interact with the prime material plane extremely interesting, but the setting doesn't really *need* a book that turns all of the planes into explicit adventuring locations. I would even argue that such a book would actively detract from the feel of the setting.

As to the OP, it's important to note that Cultists of the Dragon Below (which includes demon worshipers) don't actually worship *deities*. They worship non-deific entities *as if* they were deities. The divine magic they might receive doesn't come from those entities; it comes from *somewhere else entirely*. If you really wanted to point out manifest deities in the setting, you'd be better off bringing up the Silver Flame (which is a literally manifest energy with a voice, though it's important to mention that it's much greater than the CotSF, what with the Ghash'kaala worshiping the same energy but using it differently and with a different voice) or the Undying Court (which is a conglomerate deity that literally exists in Eberron physically; however, its ability to manifest outside of Aerenal is severely limited and still requires the presence of powerful believers when not manifesting locally). Even with those, there's still a *lot* of mystery about religion and what divine magic actually *is* in Eberron, especially since Eberron deviated from the norm by allowing clerics to have alignments that didn't actually match their religion's (like Cardinal Krozen being the de facto leader of the LG CotSF).

Your tweak of the planes (and the deities themselves) seems less like a way to solves a problem with the campaign setting and more like a way to make Eberron more like the vanilla campaign settings. Eberron deviated from those norms *for good reason*. It insisted on having mysteries and unanswered questions all over the place, and you're attempting to arbitrarily provide answers that match what players already expect based upon previous exposure to 3.X. I would probably respect the idea a bit more if you weren't trying so obviously to just map Eberron onto the Great Wheel cosmology.

Something else you may want to ask is, if there are known explicit manifestations of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six in Eberron, where are the literal manifestations of the other religions of Eberron? You're basically saying that these beliefs are *explicitly true* and, in doing so, all of the other religions are explicitly false. And, in a world like Eberron, where magic is science/technology, that would very quickly get analyzed, understood, and industrialized.

I agree and disagree.
On the one hand, by talking about some of the "conflicts", it gives them the chance to reframe some of them away to extremely faerun specific bar fights that have been going on for "thousands of years" that actively make settings with incompatible baselines difficult into something more of a broad/less setting specific split that the different settings can each add their own particular spin to rather than gm's of those settings saying "um.. yea... just assume no because I don't have the time to correct your enthusiasm. I love the enthusiasm sure... but that is actively disruptive to too many things. Give me a few days to dig up like 5 different links and two or three sourcebooks that combined might get you started on how it is or how disruptive it would be.". Prior to xanathar's guide to everything in october I would say the odds of that were less than zero. Now though... I'm not sure about the odds now, but I can be optimistic & hope even though I'm not holding my breath.

On the other side of your post you talk about not needing a manual of planes type thing for eberron, I strongly disagree. While ieberron has tons of stuff going on in the prime equivalent, one of the things that has always been an important part of eberron's planes is 'you can't get there from here, there there or there... for,,, another $bigNumber years... but you can get to where you want to go by taking this weird plane hopping route that involves may treks across individual planes to reach a point close enough that you can jump to the next plane in the series you need if you get the timing right" . Making those planes however is a lot of work so I always just avoided using that kinda thing even when I wanted to for the story. @Hellcow's recent articles on the planes left me actively interested & looking forward to one because they can clearly be done in a way that is not just a rehash of 3,5's Manual of the planes. I don't expect this book to dive into that muxch (if at all) & think a book of it's own for that kinda stuff is probably best... but I can optimistically hope that it doesnot set too many incompatible baselines that are difficult to separate from future content.

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Re: My take on Eberron Deities and Planes

Post by T'masD'Mazz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:04 pm

ThePurple wrote:
As to the OP, it's important to note that Cultists of the Dragon Below (which includes demon worshipers) don't actually worship *deities*. They worship non-deific entities *as if* they were deities. The divine magic they might receive doesn't come from those entities; it comes from *somewhere else entirely*. If you really wanted to point out manifest deities in the setting, you'd be better off bringing up the Silver Flame (which is a literally manifest energy with a voice, though it's important to mention that it's much greater than the CotSF, what with the Ghash'kaala worshiping the same energy but using it differently and with a different voice) or the Undying Court (which is a conglomerate deity that literally exists in Eberron physically; however, its ability to manifest outside of Aerenal is severely limited and still requires the presence of powerful believers when not manifesting locally). Even with those, there's still a *lot* of mystery about religion and what divine magic actually *is* in Eberron, especially since Eberron deviated from the norm by allowing clerics to have alignments that didn't actually match their religion's (like Cardinal Krozen being the de facto leader of the LG CotSF).
The Demon Lords are deities in all the senses it matter; They are so powerfull that each of rhem requires the sacrifice of an host of Couatl to simply bind them; In 4Ed, Bal Shalor, Baphomet, and the other were more or less on par with the statted deities. So, they are manifested deities, at least in a fashion.
ThePurple wrote: Your tweak of the planes (and the deities themselves) seems less like a way to solves a problem with the campaign setting and more like a way to make Eberron more like the vanilla campaign settings. Eberron deviated from those norms *for good reason*. It insisted on having mysteries and unanswered questions all over the place, and you're attempting to arbitrarily provide answers that match what players already expect based upon previous exposure to 3.X. I would probably respect the idea a bit more if you weren't trying so obviously to just map Eberron onto the Great Wheel cosmology.
I never stated I wanted to solve a problem; I said I wanted to fix something I did not like; What is the problem if I do like the Great Wheel Cosmology because I'm thinking, one day, to create a great epic adventyure spanning all the known campaign settings? Is it a reason to not respect an idea? I have given my own answers to some question, because I like things that way.
ThePurple wrote: Something else you may want to ask is, if there are known explicit manifestations of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six in Eberron, where are the literal manifestations of the other religions of Eberron? You're basically saying that these beliefs are *explicitly true* and, in doing so, all of the other religions are explicitly false. And, in a world like Eberron, where magic is science/technology, that would very quickly get analyzed, understood, and industrialized.
If you have read my post correctly, it read "the Deities of the Soreign Host with the Dark Six, and theyr aspects, which are the source of the other religions" So, barred the Elf Religions, which have they own collective phisical god, I basically endorse the main Sovereign Host sincretic PoV.

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Re: My take on Eberron Deities and Planes

Post by Zeromaru X » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:18 pm

I do like more the approach to this they give us in Dragons of Eberron (all the gods in Eberron are really dragons), but I also like the idea of making the gods real things. It makes Eberron more useful for those of us who likes the concept of the D&D multiverse.

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Re: My take on Eberron Deities and Planes

Post by T'masD'Mazz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:18 pm

The ascended Dragons theory is something which fits with my approach, indeed; The Draconic Deities already have realms in the Outer Planes, thought, so I don't need to rework them very much.

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Re: My take on Eberron Deities and Planes

Post by AvonRekaes » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:59 pm

Hey T'masD'Mazz, this is pretty interesting stuff.

Do you plan on including an explicit link to the greater D&D Multiverse? Like, does Bahamut have a domain in Syrannia (because he's worshiped by the dragons of Argonessen), or is he still explicitly located in Mount Celestia, in your campaigns?

I realize that you are not trying to answer every issue with integrating Eberron into the Multiverse. For me, I personally couldn't reconcile how differently they treated religions, and I wanted to preserve the way Eberron did it. But you're taking the other route, and that's interesting.

How do you treat the Blood of Vol, though? Their religion is explicitly anti-deist. Either they deny the gods exist, or acknowledge them and think they're ALL evil for "cursing" mortals with mortality and are angry at them. So they're either atheists or refuse to worship gods. How do you reconcile Seekers casting divine power? Are they being duped by an Overlord or something?

Also, some Cults of the Dragon Below are, at least in core-Eberron with questionable existence of gods, duped into worshipping daelkyr, mind flayers, beholders, or other aberrations. I think there may actually be one cult Keith mentioned in the Shadow Marches that worships a gibbering mouther, of all things. Essentially, madmen, so convinced of their convictions, they draw divine power from them. But that's the default, not your vision of concrete gods. Would these madmen just be gaining power from The Fury without realizing/acknowledging her?
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Re: My take on Eberron Deities and Planes

Post by T'masD'Mazz » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:04 pm

Well, you pose interesting questions, thank you;
First of all, well, yes, the Draconic Deities have all theyr own realms, even more secluded than the not draconic deities, but still, they do; I suppose Io lives in a Demiplane. Tiamat is, at least partially, bound on the Material Plane, Bahamut lives in Syrania, Chronepsis'es lair is in Dolurrth, Garyx'es is in Fernia, Falazure's is in Mabar, Aastilabor and Lendys share a manor in Daanvi, Asterinian wanders, but prefers Kythri Thelanis and Lamannia, Tamara lives in Irian, and Hlal wanders beetwen Syrania and Thelanis.

Second the Blood of Vol: well, in my mind Undeath was created by Kol Turrant/ The Keeper, as a way to empower himself; unsatisfied in his role as keeper of souls he started to make pact with them, granting them return as undead; on this provision, evey undead (and everyone who seeks undeath) is a servant of the Keeper; So, it's the Keeper which empowers the Blood of Vol, and Erandis Vol herself may be a Chosen of the Keeper, even if she does not realize that herself, still.

Third, the Cults of the Dragon Below: The Daelkyrs are the main willingly donor of divine power for those deranged cults; They are phisical gods of great power, after all; The Fury, however, is a second patron; everykind of madness is important for her, afterall.

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