[Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

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[Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:16 pm

Milke said this over in the The 13th House: An Eberron Fanzine topic:
Milke wrote:Yes, there are 13 Dragonmarked houses. The 12/13 thing is a theme throughout Eberron. There were originally 13 dragonmarks. But with the demise of the Mark of Death, it went down to 12. But the number of houses went to 13 after the Schism. There are 13 planes, but Xoriat has been knocked out of orbit, leaving 12 that are coterminous with each other. There used to be 13 moons, now there are 12 (and I'm sure that has something to do with the moons being tied to the planes). There are 13 nations, but one was destroyed, leaving 12.


I can't find any articles about Moons on Eberron Wiki (although I did find one for Xoriat, it seems to only talk about it as a plane).

MODERATOR NOTE (by Big Mac): Topic renamed, per correction in this reply.
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby RobJN » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:29 pm

Big Mac wrote:Milke said this over in the The 13th House: An Eberron Fanzine topic:
Milke wrote:Yes, there are 13 Dragonmarked houses. The 12/13 thing is a theme throughout Eberron. There were originally 13 dragonmarks. But with the demise of the Mark of Death, it went down to 12. But the number of houses went to 13 after the Schism. There are 13 planes, but Xoriat has been knocked out of orbit, leaving 12 that are coterminous with each other. There used to be 13 moons, now there are 12 (and I'm sure that has something to do with the moons being tied to the planes). There are 13 nations, but one was destroyed, leaving 12.


I can't find any articles about Moons on Eberron Wiki (although I did find one for Xoriat, it seems to only talk about it as a plane).

The first rule of Xoriat is you don't talk about Xoriat.

Were the planes tied to moons in the Eberron cosmology? I knew they were anchored to heavenly bodies, and orbited the Eberron Prime, but I don't remember if they were planets, moons, asteroids.... I'll have to dig out my Campaign Setting book again.

Wizards had a javascripted orrery/calendar to track the positions of the various planes and phases of the moons. I wonder of that thing is still around.
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:51 pm

RobJN wrote:
Big Mac wrote:Milke said this over in the The 13th House: An Eberron Fanzine topic:
Milke wrote:Yes, there are 13 Dragonmarked houses. The 12/13 thing is a theme throughout Eberron. There were originally 13 dragonmarks. But with the demise of the Mark of Death, it went down to 12. But the number of houses went to 13 after the Schism. There are 13 planes, but Xoriat has been knocked out of orbit, leaving 12 that are coterminous with each other. There used to be 13 moons, now there are 12 (and I'm sure that has something to do with the moons being tied to the planes). There are 13 nations, but one was destroyed, leaving 12.


I can't find any articles about Moons on Eberron Wiki (although I did find one for Xoriat, it seems to only talk about it as a plane).

The first rule of Xoriat is you don't talk about Xoriat.


:lol:

RobJN wrote:Were the planes tied to moons in the Eberron cosmology? I knew they were anchored to heavenly bodies, and orbited the Eberron Prime, but I don't remember if they were planets, moons, asteroids.... I'll have to dig out my Campaign Setting book again.


I had a quick skim of Eberron Campaign Setting, but I can't find anything about the moons. Eberron Wiki suggested that Faiths of Eberron had something, but I couldn't find anything there either.

RobJN wrote:Wizards had a javascripted orrery/calendar to track the positions of the various planes and phases of the moons. I wonder of that thing is still around.


The orrery is still there. (But they have blocked Wayback Machine from holding a copy in its archive, so I hope someone makes a backup.) As far as I can tell, it is just a reproduction of the movements of the planes, and does not show the movement of the moons.

I've had people suggest to me in the past, that the planes orbit Eberron, but I'm not sure that is true. I think they just orbit the Material Plane on another dimension. That isn't quite the same thing. So maybe Eberron might have a fairly normal planetary system, similar to other D&D worlds. :?
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:55 pm

I found another tool on the WotC website called Eberron Cosmology / Calendar Tool. (Again they have blocked the Wayback Machine from holding an archive of this, so I hope someone makes a backup.)

I see 13 planes and 12 moons. There is a blank spot where the moon that relates to Xoriat should be. The moons that may or may not relate to the other planes actually have different names to those planes. I am going to list the planes and the moons, but I'm not entirely sure if the moons that line up with the planes do connect somehow to those planes.

If you click on the moon, you can see the phases of the moon, so I've added a third column showing the orbital period of that moon. Somebody might be able to make a model showing the movements of the moon, perhaps one similar to the Moon Tracking Table in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, based on those orbital periods.



* = It looks like this might be 80,000 years.
** = Kythri can remain coterminous for any period from a day to a centuary.
*** = Xoriat's orbit has been altered by the Gatekeepers, the last time it was coterminous and its orbital period is now unknown. Its previous orbital period was not mentioned on the WotC tool.
**** = The 13th Moon, which has been knocked out of orbit, as far as I can tell, is not mentioned in this tool, but looking at the patterns of the other moons, they have a difference in orbital period of exactly 7 days! So if it orbited outside of Barrakas, it probably would have had a 112 day orbit. (Alternatively, if it actually orbited inside of Nymm, it would have had a 21 day orbit.)

EDIT: Name of 13th Moon (Crya) added to table. (I still do not know what the orbital period used to be, at this time.)
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby enderxenocide0 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:07 am

Hey guys, so there's a little bit of misinterpretation going on here. Thought I could clear some stuff up for you.

The Eberron Cosmology / Calendar Tool does list the moons and their phases, but if you'll note, it's in a separate table than the planes one. Oddly enough, the moons there do NOT directly correspond to the plane listed in the table to its left. The missing 13th moon was known as Crya. It is, in fact, related to Dal Quor. It was detroyed by the Moon Breaker device that the giants constructed during the Giant-Quori war some tens of thousands of years ago. I'm running out at the moment, but I'll look up the direct references for that later. I can tell you there is mention of the Moon Breaker in City of Stormreach and a small mention in Secrets of Xen'drik. Keith's Dreaming Dark trilogy also features it prominently in books two and three.
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:07 am

enderxenocide0 wrote:Hey guys, so there's a little bit of misinterpretation going on here. Thought I could clear some stuff up for you.


Thanks Ender. I was a bit uncertain about the information, when I found it.

I've put on my admin hat and renamed the topic, pulling "Xoriat" out of the title and putting "Crya" in.

enderxenocide0 wrote:The Eberron Cosmology / Calendar Tool does list the moons and their phases, but if you'll note, it's in a separate table than the planes one.


I did notice the tables had a gap between them, and that did make me suspicious. But I couldn't find anything to confirm that suspicion.

The Xoriat article on Eberron Wiki had a citation that suggested that Xoriat was thought to be linked to the 13th Moon. (It did say that the assumption was false, but didn't say another moon was linked with Xoriat.)

I've been looking for information on the celestial bodies around Eberron for some time now. But I've only recently been buying the actual Eberron books, and the availability of spare cash to buy them has coincided with having less time to read RPG books.

enderxenocide0 wrote:Oddly enough, the moons there do NOT directly correspond to the plane listed in the table to its left. The missing 13th moon was known as Crya. It is, in fact, related to Dal Quor.


Thanks. I'll be interested to know where you got that from, when you have time to look up this stuff.

enderxenocide0 wrote:It was detroyed by the Moon Breaker device that the giants constructed during the Giant-Quori war some tens of thousands of years ago. I'm running out at the moment, but I'll look up the direct references for that later. I can tell you there is mention of the Moon Breaker in City of Stormreach and a small mention in Secrets of Xen'drik. Keith's Dreaming Dark trilogy also features it prominently in books two and three.


Destroyed, huh? Not just moved.

I'm guessing that would leave an asteroid field...unless it has turned into the dragonshards that orbit the world.

Moon Breaker is going to be a very interesting item. If it can break one moon, maybe it can break other moons.
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby ripvanwormer » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:58 am

Secrets of Xen'drik, page 8: "Some say that the titans shattered the lost thirteenth moon on a vast altar of obsidian and brass."

City of Stormreach, page 158: "And indeed, it was the Sul’at League [a group of giants made up of ancestors of modern fire giants] that finally produced the Moon Breaker—the doomsday weapon that decimated the quori and sealed off their home plane of Dal Quor from Eberron."
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby enderxenocide0 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:22 am

In the novels, Keith described it as a massive eldritch machine that used sympathetic magic to destroy the moon and, in turn, sever the connection to Dal Quor. Each moon was represented by a crystal sphere that was magically connected to a specific plane. Crya is mentioned in Faiths of Eberron on pages 79 and 80 in reference to the Blood of Vol calendar. It erroneously lists it as connected with Xoriat, stating: "...it still recognizes the thirteenth moon (believed lost to the cosmos when the Giants sealed off the plane of Xoriat so many centuries ago)." That's clearly false given that the Giants dealt with Dal Quor and the Gatekeepers were the ones that dealt with Xoriat. Nonetheless, it names Crya as the thirteenth moon.

The Grand History of Eberron is often consider a very comprehensive encyclopedia of Eberron's history and this calls Crya "The Dreamer" as well, though I'm uncertain which book it pulls this from. For more information on the moons in general, you can also use The Moons of Eberron Dragonshard article.

PS. I, too, once determined all of the periods for Eberron's moons. I had a player that wanted to see if he could teleport to a moon, so I was trying to determine the apogee and perigee of each moon. I don't believe we have enough information to determine that, but if anyone wants the values of each orbit's semi-major axis, I have a spreadsheet where these were all calculated.
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:32 am

EDIT: The above two posts were written, while I was typing this reply (I went to bed half way through typing it too).

I just found an article called Dragonshards: The Moons of Eberron, in the WotC archive. (The information in that, seems to conflict with the information from the "Eberron Cosmology / Calendar Tool". And they also talk as if the moons each have 28 days of brightness per year, which does not seem to add up to me, when they have different orbital periods.)



* = The vertical slit on Lharvion is a 750-mile-long black chasm.

After typing these into a table, I can see that the distances of the moons is in a totally different order to the orbital periods of the moons. While I think it is possible that the moons further away from Eberron could be orbiting faster than moons nearer than Eberron, I don't think this is the case. And the statement that 'Each moon has an "ascendant phase" -- a 28-day period during which it is unusually bright.' just does not fit in with 11 of the moons having periods longer than 28 days. That would only seem to work if they had some sort of inner light. (And if that was the case, we would need to be told the times of the year when that happens.)

Considering that this article suggests that each moon is associated with a Dragonmark, it is possible that the book Dragonmarked might include some sort of information that can clarify the situation.
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:50 am

ripvanwormer wrote:Secrets of Xen'drik, page 8: "Some say that the titans shattered the lost thirteenth moon on a vast altar of obsidian and brass."


Thans Rip! The page numbers are really helpful. :)

Sadly I do not own a copy of Secrets of Xen'drik yet. (It is currently selling at twice the recommended price, so I'm waiting for the price to drop to a normal level.)

Unless there is a large object floating around in space, I'm going to assume that is a legend...or a metaphor. (Or maybe the crystal spheres around Eberron, that Ender mentioned, are supposed to be made of obsidian and brass. :? )

ripvanwormer wrote:City of Stormreach, page 158: "And indeed, it was the Sul’at League [a group of giants made up of ancestors of modern fire giants] that finally produced the Moon Breaker—the doomsday weapon that decimated the quori and sealed off their home plane of Dal Quor from Eberron."


This seems to suggest that Moon Breaker cut the connection between Eberron and Dal Quar, as well as (or instead of) blowing up the 13th Moon. I've read the entire section of City of Stormreach, but it doesn't clarify things. It just mentions a second doomsday weapon, that seems unrelated to the first one. I seem to be getting more questions, from this, instead of more clarity. :?
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:55 am

enderxenocide0 wrote:In the novels, Keith described it as a massive eldritch machine that used sympathetic magic to destroy the moon and, in turn, sever the connection to Dal Quor. Each moon was represented by a crystal sphere that was magically connected to a specific plane. Crya is mentioned in Faiths of Eberron on pages 79 and 80 in reference to the Blood of Vol calendar. It erroneously lists it as connected with Xoriat, stating: "...it still recognizes the thirteenth moon (believed lost to the cosmos when the Giants sealed off the plane of Xoriat so many centuries ago)." That's clearly false given that the Giants dealt with Dal Quor and the Gatekeepers were the ones that dealt with Xoriat. Nonetheless, it names Crya as the thirteenth moon.


I wonder how they were able to destroy one moon without affecting the others. I might need to read the novels, to see exactly how Keith Baker describes this process. :? I own one Eberron novel, but have not read it yet. Which novels are we talking about? (And do I need to read any other novels first to avoid spoilers?)

Moon Breaker sounds a bit like the sort of magical devices that illithids use in Spelljammer to "darken the light" (turn off the sun). Crystal spheres are also something that Spelljammer has, although it sounds like Keith has gone back to the original source of the celestial spheres theory, that Jeff Grubb altered (from debunked science) for Spelljammer. That has the spheres being made from a transparent fifth element (called "quintessence"). I wonder if Keith makes his crystal spheres out of that. (Jeff Grubb never name the material that his crystal spheres were built from.)

I'm glad I'm not the only person who mistakenly associated Crya with Xoriat. It does look like there was a continuity error here. I wonder if it is covered by an errata document somewhere.

It seems to me that page 79 of Faiths of Eberron says that Crya is a month (a lost month) and page 80 mentions the 13th moon and the Mark of Death in that context.

So I'm confused about the moons being stated as having different periods (and distances from Eberron) but also apparently being associated with 28 day months. Something is wrong here.

And even if we did have 28 day periods for each moon (that may or may not have something to do with their orbit...or the position of the planes...or something going on with these Eberron crystal spheres, what happened when the 13th moon was still around? Did Eberron originally have a year that was 28 days longer? Or was every month a bit shorter back then? :?

enderxenocide0 wrote:The Grand History of Eberron is often consider a very comprehensive encyclopedia of Eberron's history and this calls Crya "The Dreamer" as well, though I'm uncertain which book it pulls this from. For more information on the moons in general, you can also use The Moons of Eberron Dragonshard article.


I believe I saw something (maybe a topic at the WotC forum for Eberron) where a fan was asking for citations for the new version of The Grand History of Eberron and the author said there was no room for them. That might be true, but book and page citations are the only real way to make it easy for other people to retrace your step and see what they think about the sources you are using. I would love to know where "The Dreamer" coes from.

I just found that same Dragonshard article, while you were writing your post. I think I might have seen it years back. All the URLs have changed.

enderxenocide0 wrote:PS. I, too, once determined all of the periods for Eberron's moons. I had a player that wanted to see if he could teleport to a moon, so I was trying to determine the apogee and perigee of each moon. I don't believe we have enough information to determine that, but if anyone wants the values of each orbit's semi-major axis, I have a spreadsheet where these were all calculated.


I would love to see your numbers. :cool: I would be trying to do something with these moons myself.

And if each moon is supposed to be connected to a plane, I'll need to work out what goes with what, too.
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby enderxenocide0 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:42 pm

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. The Moon Breaker is an eldritch machine built by the Giants. In this machine was a series of crystal spheres that the Giants magically linked to the moons (themselves somehow connected to the planes). Upon the destruction of one of the spheres, the moon it was connected to vanished. This was Crya. The Giants were using some form of sympathetic magic, like an elaborate voodoo doll. There are no crystal spheres in space as far as we know. This all comes form The Shattered Land and The Gates of Night, but I'd recommend reading City of Towers first.

So I'm confused about the moons being stated as having different periods (and distances from Eberron) but also apparently being associated with 28 day months. Something is wrong here.

And even if we did have 28 day periods for each moon (that may or may not have something to do with their orbit...or the position of the planes...or something going on with these Eberron crystal spheres, what happened when the 13th moon was still around? Did Eberron originally have a year that was 28 days longer? Or was every month a bit shorter back then?

...And they also talk as if the moons each have 28 days of brightness per year, which does not seem to add up to me, when they have different orbital periods.)...
It seems to me that the only logical explanation is that the months were shorter. Months, and calendars in general, are artificial constructions of society. A 13th moon should not affect how long it takes for Eberron to orbit the sun. I also always assumed that the 28 days of brightness for each moon was something unnatural. It says it's unusually bright, which made me think that one moon became really, really noticeable during those 28 days. It seems natural that a society would thus name a month after this super bright celestial body. I also assume that when there were 13 moons, the ascendant phase of each moon would have been shorter. Math tells me it should be around 25.8 days. Older civilizations would thusly have designed their lunar calendars around those shorter months. Another option is that it also had 28 days of brightness, which means the lunar calendar would not match the solar year. This is entirely possible and happens in real life as well. The societies would have a lunisolar calendar in this case, if they even bothered with the moon's ascendant phase at that point. Given that the two largest civilizations would have been the Giants and the Dragons, who both had knowledge of the moons' relations to the planes, I'd wager a lunisolar calendar would make sense for them.

After typing these into a table, I can see that the distances of the moons is in a totally different order to the orbital periods of the moons. While I think it is possible that the moons further away from Eberron could be orbiting faster than moons nearer than Eberron, I don't think this is the case. And the statement that 'Each moon has an "ascendant phase" -- a 28-day period during which it is unusually bright.' just does not fit in with 11 of the moons having periods longer than 28 days. That would only seem to work if they had some sort of inner light. (And if that was the case, we would need to be told the times of the year when that happens.)
I agree that those further from Eberron should have longer periods. But, frankly, I attribute this to laziness and error on the part of the cosmology tool makers. I don't think they bothered to take the time to figure it out. Given that the Moons of Eberron article was written by Keith, I'd use that as prime canon. Anything that contradicts it would be secondary. And while the tool doesn't directly contradict it, there is a low probability of it being correct, given the dragonshard article.

Other moon-related info:

Dragonmarked, page 8 has this sentence "Some scholars claim that the dragonmarks represent primal forces, and are tied to both the moons of Eberron and the planes."

Explorer's Handbook, page 116 describe an Argonnessen Observatory: "Each of the thirteen spheres is identi- cal, crafted of solid iron and floating in the sky around the main tower. A Large air elemental is bound to a single Khyber dragonshard that sits atop each sphere. This provides the spheres with their ability to float, though their positions are controlled from the tower.

The spheres are constructed with three rotating rings, each of which can be manually set to one of thirteen positions by any creature that can fly to them. Runes representing each of the thirteen moons (twelve extant, one historical), the thirteen planes of existence, and the thirteen Siberys dragonmarks (including the lost Mark of Death) line the rings.

By manually rotating each sphere’s rings to one of 2,197 runic combinations, a creature can attempt to fine tune its ability to scry from inside the observa- tory."
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:58 pm

enderxenocide0 wrote:Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. The Moon Breaker is an eldritch machine built by the Giants. In this machine was a series of crystal spheres that the Giants magically linked to the moons (themselves somehow connected to the planes). Upon the destruction of one of the spheres, the moon it was connected to vanished. This was Crya. The Giants were using some form of sympathetic magic, like an elaborate voodoo doll. There are no crystal spheres in space as far as we know.


Maybe you were not clear, but I suspect the sources are what confused me.

I've been looking around, as well, and I thought I saw something that mentioned them, myself. But I can't find what I found before now. :?

enderxenocide0 wrote:This all comes form The Shattered Land and The Gates of Night, but I'd recommend reading City of Towers first.


Sounds good to me. I'll add them to my list and start looking for them. :cool:

EDIT: The City of Towers located and ordered. :)

enderxenocide0 wrote:
Big Mac wrote:So I'm confused about the moons being stated as having different periods (and distances from Eberron) but also apparently being associated with 28 day months. Something is wrong here.

And even if we did have 28 day periods for each moon (that may or may not have something to do with their orbit...or the position of the planes...or something going on with these Eberron crystal spheres, what happened when the 13th moon was still around? Did Eberron originally have a year that was 28 days longer? Or was every month a bit shorter back then?

...And they also talk as if the moons each have 28 days of brightness per year, which does not seem to add up to me, when they have different orbital periods.)...
It seems to me that the only logical explanation is that the months were shorter. Months, and calendars in general, are artificial constructions of society. A 13th moon should not affect how long it takes for Eberron to orbit the sun. I also always assumed that the 28 days of brightness for each moon was something unnatural. It says it's unusually bright, which made me think that one moon became really, really noticeable during those 28 days. It seems natural that a society would thus name a month after this super bright celestial body. I also assume that when there were 13 moons, the ascendant phase of each moon would have been shorter. Math tells me it should be around 25.8 days. Older civilizations would thusly have designed their lunar calendars around those shorter months. Another option is that it also had 28 days of brightness, which means the lunar calendar would not match the solar year. This is entirely possible and happens in real life as well. The societies would have a lunisolar calendar in this case, if they even bothered with the moon's ascendant phase at that point. Given that the two largest civilizations would have been the Giants and the Dragons, who both had knowledge of the moons' relations to the planes, I'd wager a lunisolar calendar would make sense for them.


OK. I think I agree with your logic on the brightness. Eberron is a fantasy planet, so it is possible for something magical to make the moons brighter - one by one - over the course of a year.

Howevever, with the moons all having phases, they are going to be bright but also waxing, waning, full or new.

I do concur with your logic of the brightness spending less time with 13 moons. But then again - who knows - maybe it still spent 28 days with each moon and we had 12 lunar months in one Eberron year, but the months moved backwards by one month per year. :?

enderxenocide0 wrote:
Big Mac wrote:After typing these into a table, I can see that the distances of the moons is in a totally different order to the orbital periods of the moons. While I think it is possible that the moons further away from Eberron could be orbiting faster than moons nearer than Eberron, I don't think this is the case. And the statement that 'Each moon has an "ascendant phase" -- a 28-day period during which it is unusually bright.' just does not fit in with 11 of the moons having periods longer than 28 days. That would only seem to work if they had some sort of inner light. (And if that was the case, we would need to be told the times of the year when that happens.)
I agree that those further from Eberron should have longer periods. But, frankly, I attribute this to laziness and error on the part of the cosmology tool makers. I don't think they bothered to take the time to figure it out. Given that the Moons of Eberron article was written by Keith, I'd use that as prime canon. Anything that contradicts it would be secondary. And while the tool doesn't directly contradict it, there is a low probability of it being correct, given the dragonshard article.


One thing I have considered doing, is to take the mathematics (the orbital periods) of the tool, but move the numbers around, so that they match the distances from Eberron given in Keith Baker's Dragonshards article.

That would not strictly be canon, but it would be fanon that puts a band-aid on the canon. And it would fix all the moons except our 13th moon. We still need to work out if that was an "outer moon" or an "inner moon" to guess the orbital period, but I would gamble it followed the same mathematical progression.

enderxenocide0 wrote:Other moon-related info:

Dragonmarked, page 8 has this sentence "Some scholars claim that the dragonmarks represent primal forces, and are tied to both the moons of Eberron and the planes."


OK. This is making more sense to me...but it leaves me wanting a list of what moon and what plane are associated with each dragonmark. Sure it is "some scholars" so maybe this is supposed to be a red herring, but if the theory exists, there should really be a list somewhere.

enderxenocide0 wrote:Explorer's Handbook, page 116 describe an Argonnessen Observatory: "Each of the thirteen spheres is identi- cal, crafted of solid iron and floating in the sky around the main tower. A Large air elemental is bound to a single Khyber dragonshard that sits atop each sphere. This provides the spheres with their ability to float, though their positions are controlled from the tower.


I have the Explorer's Handbook. :cool: I need to check to see if the Argonnessen Observatory is anything like the Starpeaks Observatory (Eberron Campaign Setting page 141).

<wibbley wobbley - reading book effect />

OK. So I'm guessing that the Starpeaks Observatory would have less stuff going on with it, as it was not finished, before the person who commissioned it died. But generally, it looks like people use observatories for astrology and/or scrying.

enderxenocide0 wrote:The spheres are constructed with three rotating rings, each of which can be manually set to one of thirteen positions by any creature that can fly to them. Runes representing each of the thirteen moons (twelve extant, one historical), the thirteen planes of existence, and the thirteen Siberys dragonmarks (including the lost Mark of Death) line the rings.

By manually rotating each sphere’s rings to one of 2,197 runic combinations, a creature can attempt to fine tune its ability to scry from inside the observatory."


One thing I'm not sure on if this ability to scry applies to Eberron...or if it applies to the various planes and moons.

...and if it applies to the moons, can the dragon try to scry on the 13th Moon. :?
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:25 pm

Keith Baker posted some help for this over on Faceborg:
Keith Baker on Facebook wrote:Technically the missing moon wasn't tied to Xoriat, it was tied to Dal Quor. The giants destroyed the moon in their war with the Quori... over ten thousand years before the Daelkyr incursion.

I assume you've already found this? http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp? ... /20050307a


That confirms stuff other people have pointed me at here. :)
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby RobJN » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:57 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:Secrets of Xen'drik, page 8: "Some say that the titans shattered the lost thirteenth moon on a vast altar of obsidian and brass."

City of Stormreach, page 158: "And indeed, it was the Sul’at League [a group of giants made up of ancestors of modern fire giants] that finally produced the Moon Breaker—the doomsday weapon that decimated the quori and sealed off their home plane of Dal Quor from Eberron."

That makes for an awesome image, and I suppose it could be taken symbolically (as the item was stated, somewhere here in the thread) to've worked on the sympathetic level, a-la voodoo doll)

Me, I think the moon just had a poorly-shielded thermal exhaust port about two meters wide.
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby enderxenocide0 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:07 pm

>_>
<_<

...that's no moon!
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:54 pm

RobJN wrote:
ripvanwormer wrote:Secrets of Xen'drik, page 8: "Some say that the titans shattered the lost thirteenth moon on a vast altar of obsidian and brass."

City of Stormreach, page 158: "And indeed, it was the Sul’at League [a group of giants made up of ancestors of modern fire giants] that finally produced the Moon Breaker—the doomsday weapon that decimated the quori and sealed off their home plane of Dal Quor from Eberron."

That makes for an awesome image, and I suppose it could be taken symbolically (as the item was stated, somewhere here in the thread) to've worked on the sympathetic level, a-la voodoo doll)


I would definitely love to read more about this event.

This may be "sympathetic magic" or "voodoo", but the power to destroy a celestial body is pretty impressive. I'm wondering if the "altar of obsidian and brass" might actually be representative of an object in space that slammed into the moon.

RobJN wrote:Me, I think the moon just had a poorly-shielded thermal exhaust port about two meters wide.


...and...

enderxenocide0 wrote:>_>
<_<

...that's no moon!


Image
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:08 am

I found a picture posted on the Eberron forum at WotC:
ieattrollsforbreakfast wrote:Yes, Eberron's moons are enormous. When the Dragonshard first came out, I made a mock up of relative sizes:

Moon Sizes
http://www.dragon-above.com/ebmoons.JPG


It doesn't show the size of Crya. But anything showing the other 12 moons is useful.
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby enderxenocide0 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:10 am

Spoilers for the Dreaming Dark trilogy ahead:

In the novels, when the crystal representation of the moon was repaired, Crya reappeared in the sku, completely whole. So the Moon Breaker may not destroy a moon, per se. For that matter... the moons may not be physical things at all.
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:43 am

Thanks Ender! That's really useful.

I probably shouldn't have read that, as I'm going to read the books. :lol: But I'm guessing that the moons are not necessarily that important to the story. I'm really looking forward to reading them now.

I do have one question, which I'll put in hidden text, as it contains a word from your spoiler: What is a "sku"?
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Angel Tarragon » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:09 pm

Big Mac, it is a typo. It is meant to be read as sky.
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:07 pm

The Angelic Dragon wrote:Big Mac, it is a typo. It is meant to be read as sky.


You are right. It must be. :oops: :facepalm:
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby enderxenocide0 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:59 am

Haha, whoops. Yeah, that was a typo. I've got SKUs on the brain thanks to work.
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Big Mac » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:48 am

OK, getting back to Crya, I had a thought about how Moon Breaker might be able to "get rid of Crya" without destroying it.

In real-world celestial mechanics, there are five Lagrangian points (aka "L-points" or "libration points") created around any two celestial bodies in space. Eberron's sun and Eberron would have these five points. Three of them are semi-stable and the other two are very stable. If Moon Breaker "pushed Crya away" instead of destroying it, it could move permanently to one of the Lagrangian points. That could make it available to a Shardspace game, while making it non-visible in a standard Eberron game. Here are the five points:
  • L1 - This is on a direct line between Eberron and its sun, and is closer to the sun than Eberron. Astronomers might observe a small dark circle on the sun (Crya's shadow) so I probably would not recommend this option.
  • L2 - This is also on a direct line between Eberron and sun, but is further away from the sun than Eberron. So Astronomers would need to look directly away from the sun to rediscover Crya. If Crya is in Eberron's shadow (and I presume it is) it would be pretty hard to see it, as there would be no reflected light.
  • L3 - This is in Eberron's orbit on the exact opposite side (i.e. behind the Eberron's sun). It would be impossible to ever see any celestial body here. (Personally I think that a move to L2 is a bit more believable...as a "shove"...than a move to L3, unless teleportation was involved.)
  • L4 - This is in Eberron's orbit, ahead of Eberron itself, with the angles between Ebrerron, it's sun and the L4 position making an equilateral triangle. This is one of the two most stable L-points. This would be a bigger "push" from Eberron than a push out to L2, but with all the moons orbiting Eberron, one or more of them might possibly disrupt the stability of L2. L4 is a bit more believable.
  • L5 - This is the same thing as L4, but following Eberron, instead of moving ahead of it. And it is the other most stable L-point. L5 is as believable as L2, so it is really a choice between Cry being in front of Eberron or behind it, if you like L4 and L5.

enderxenocide0 wrote:Spoilers for the Dreaming Dark trilogy ahead:

In the novels, when the crystal representation of the moon was repaired, Crya reappeared in the sky, completely whole. So the Moon Breaker may not destroy a moon, per se. For that matter... the moons may not be physical things at all.


The other way to deal with this would be to have Moon Breaker to push Crya onto one of Eberron's planes.

If Crya was pushed onto Dal Quor, perhaps it was actually used to "plug" the opening between that plane and the Material Plane. The magical effects of Crya could counter the magical effects of Dal Quor with portals and manifest zones, from both places interfering with each other and disabling connections to locations on Eberron.

As for the moons not being physical things, as someone interested in Shardspace, I'm not sure that would make for a good game. So that could be a great option for someone running an Eberron game, where there is nothing real above the sky, but I'm going to ignore it because it "breaks" Shardspace as an "Eberron crystal sphere for Spelljammer".
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Re: [Spelljammer][Shardspace] Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon

Postby Beoric » Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:37 am

enderxenocide0 wrote:
So I'm confused about the moons being stated as having different periods (and distances from Eberron) but also apparently being associated with 28 day months. Something is wrong here.

And even if we did have 28 day periods for each moon (that may or may not have something to do with their orbit...or the position of the planes...or something going on with these Eberron crystal spheres, what happened when the 13th moon was still around? Did Eberron originally have a year that was 28 days longer? Or was every month a bit shorter back then?

...And they also talk as if the moons each have 28 days of brightness per year, which does not seem to add up to me, when they have different orbital periods.)...


It seems to me that the only logical explanation is that the months were shorter.


Since Ender pointed me to this thread, I'm feeling free to practice a little necromancy. I'm not sure that logic is necessarily the defining characteristic. There is a persistent theme through Keith's articles that things in Eberron reflect their character, and if the character changes, the thing itself is fundamentally changed. Like the way a radiant idol is fundamentally different from an angel.

I feel like a change in the number of months doesn't impact on the length of the month, it impacts on the length of the year. The length of a month, at 28 days, has a certain symbolism to it. In Eberron it seems like symbols have meaning, and the meaning doesn't change if the symbol is constant. So I would be more inclined to say that when there were 13 moons, the year was 28 days longer.

Real world physics and astronomy do not apply. Looking at the 4e map of Xen'drik, you can estimate the distance from the equator to the pole, and extrapolate from that to find that Eberron is about half the circumference of Earth, and therefore 1/8 the volume, but appears to have the same gravity. Both Dravago and Vult are about the same size as Eberron, with Dravago being a bit bigger and Vult being a bit smaller. The combined volume of Eberron's moons is about five times the volume of Eberron. Also, magic. The moons are linked to other planes of existence. Travel to the planes is possible. The "planet" is a dragon enclosed in another dragon, with a "ring" made up of fragments from a third dragon.

I figure each moon is brighter than the others one a year because each moon gets closer to Eberron once a year, at the same time every year. Never mind that it would mean some pretty screwy orbits, given that they can't have the same length of orbit as each other if they are to have different lunar cycles. Linking the length of a month to the period that a given moon is brightest allows us to (a) have months linked to moons, which is a part of our symbolism, (b) have the length of months be 28 days, another part of our symbolism, and (c) do this without tying the monthly cycle to a single moon or forcing the moons to have the same period of orbit. Frankly, I am doubtful that you can have a realistic planetary system that would duplicate the lunar cycles as observed from Eberron.

I'm not even going to assume that the sun is a giant ball of gas or that there is a vacuum in the space between Eberron and its moons until I have a canon or plot reason for doing so. It may be possible to fly to the moons in an elemental airship, for all I know. If so, you could get to Zarantyr in 24 days.
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