[Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

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[Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

Postby Big Mac » Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:55 pm

Zeromaru X just droppd a random Eberron factoid in the Planescape forum, in Havard's Is 4E Sigil Set 100 years after 2e Planescape? topic! Here is the part of my reply to him about the moon, which includes the important part of his post:
Big Mac wrote:
Zeromaru X wrote:
Big Mac wrote:From what I can tell Nentir Vale has the Shadowfell. I'm not sure if Elsir Vale ever named a Plane of Shadow (3e style). I think the 4e Eberron Campaign Setting has a rebooted cosmology. I'm not sure about Dark Sun.


Eberron didn't have new planes. 4e Eberron have the same moons, and the same orrery cosmology it has in 3e. Astral Sea was just only another name for Syberis, while Elemental Chaos is just another name for Khyber. Shadowfell and Feywild are just alternate names for Dolurrh and Thelanis as well. Some moons are more aligned with Syberis, other with Eberron, and other with Khyber, and there is an extra moon in Syberis (the Nine Hells) but the original orrery of moons still exist in 4e.

You can think that the Astral Sea is just the Astral Plane that connected the moons in the 3e cosmology, and that's all. Khyber exist within Eberron, so there is no Elemental Chaos in the planar map.

And the Elsir Vale in 3e was just a generic region without any planes mentioned.

And you also can take into account that the 4e MotP included a version of the Great Wheel (with all the equivalents for 4e monster's origins) as a valid cosmology. They just focused in the World Axis because that was the cosmology of the "core" D&D world of 4e (Nerath world).


Wait! There is an extra moon in 4e Eberron? :o :cool:

Somebody should have told me! ;)


He also added another reply:
Zeromaru X wrote:Baator, the Nine Hells, is the 14th moon of Eberron in 4e. Is the nominal home of devils in this setting (and Asmodeus claims he is a god, even if the rest of the eberronites believe he is just an archfiend). Shavarath is still a battlefield for devils, angels and demons, nonetheless.


But I'd like to bring the conversation here, rather than derail Havard's Planescape topic with Eberron questions.

Why did this moon (which breaks the "Baker's Dozen Law" ;) ) get added to 4th Edition Eberron?

Is there some sort of 3e-to-4e transition plotline that made it necessary to add another moon?

Is it the lost moon, replaced by an alternative moon?

Or is this some sort of "executive meddling" to make Eberron fit into the 4e cosmology?
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Re: [Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

Postby enderxenocide0 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:54 pm

Baator was a plane that was added to Eberron in 4E to match up with the 4E planar cosmology. I don't actually recall the Baator article mentioning a new moon that it was equated with, however. Granted, I could be wrong. I don't pay a lot of attention to 4E Eberron. While the moons were often tied to the planes in 3.5, there is nothing that states they are the planes. In fact, given that the destruction of Crya only served to sever the physical link between the material plane and Dal Quor, it can be assumed that the moons are, at best, an intermediary between the planes.
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Re: [Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

Postby Beoric » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:48 pm

Was Crya destroyed, or is it just hidden?

Baator is not a plane, it is an "island in the Sea of Siberys", constructed by the Sovereigns, not created by the first three dragons. A demi-plane, if you will.

I like to think of the 3e cosmology and the 4e cosmology as just being different models to describe the same thing, neither of which is necessarily accurate. They may each be better for certain things, for instance, the 3e cosmology better models how planes become coterminous or remote, but the 4e cosmology better models how you can travel between planes (through the astral sea and elemental chaos). I don't see the detailing of newly discovered demi-planes as really changing anything.
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Re: [Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

Postby Big Mac » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:55 am

enderxenocide0 wrote:Baator was a plane that was added to Eberron in 4E to match up with the 4E planar cosmology. I don't actually recall the Baator article mentioning a new moon that it was equated with, however. Granted, I could be wrong. I don't pay a lot of attention to 4E Eberron. While the moons were often tied to the planes in 3.5, there is nothing that states they are the planes. In fact, given that the destruction of Crya only served to sever the physical link between the material plane and Dal Quor, it can be assumed that the moons are, at best, an intermediary between the planes.


Ah. So not a moon. Thanks.

Beoric wrote:Was Crya destroyed, or is it just hidden?

Baator is not a plane, it is an "island in the Sea of Siberys", constructed by the Sovereigns, not created by the first three dragons. A demi-plane, if you will.

I like to think of the 3e cosmology and the 4e cosmology as just being different models to describe the same thing, neither of which is necessarily accurate. They may each be better for certain things, for instance, the 3e cosmology better models how planes become coterminous or remote, but the 4e cosmology better models how you can travel between planes (through the astral sea and elemental chaos). I don't see the detailing of newly discovered demi-planes as really changing anything.


An "island in the Sea of Siberys"? But Siberys is a ring of asteroids. :?
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Re: [Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

Postby Zeromaru X » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:15 am

I found a post of Keith in Enworld about this (and I'm searching now the article he mentioned):

Personally, I agree. I don't know if you have seen my Eye on Eberron article on Baator, where I did my best to correct this. In that I presented the idea that Baator wasn't a full plane on scale with the others; it was a created demiplane designed as a dumping ground for undesireables from all the other planes - the hole you throw angels, eladrin, etc who have broken the rules. The concept then is that it's only very recently that the prisoners have taken over the jail and that it's more of a gang-lords-building-power than ancient Blood War thing. Asmodeus is the cleverest of them and working hard to assert dominance. His making pacts with Warlocks is thus a NEW THING that even arcane scholars are puzzled about (They may have heard of some similar things back in the days of Ohr Kaluun, but not recently). So essentially, it makes Baator a recent development in the arcane world; even many scholars have never heard of it. And as a demiplane it doesn't have manifest zones, etc; it's not a full plane and not part of the Baker's Dozen.

As for Asmodeus himself, IIRC my description was that he was a creation of Siberys who claims to have taught Aureon (presumably the dragon Ourelonastryx) the ways of both magic and politics. His pride made him jealous of the Sovereigns - who offers prayers to Asmodeus? - and caused him to rebel agains the celestial order, which got him dumped in Baator.

Again, the main idea was to do something entirely different with Baator. It's NOT ancient in the way the other planes are. Asmodeus isn't a well-known established power; he's an obscure ancient legend who's only just taken over his prison and begun to build his power. In a setting where Quori, Daelkyr, and Lords of Dust are all ancient and storied threats, he's something new and mysterious.

Having said that, my point is that I am loyal to Eberron's core cosmology. If anything else gets dropped in, I'll always do my best to find a way to reconcile it with that, not to abandon it.


Original post here.

The thing that make me fall in love with Eberron is its way to use the retcons and new additions to enhance the setting without losing its unique flavor in the process, instead of retconning stuff, throw any changes away, and pretend they never happened (yeah, I'm looking you Forgotten Realms :evil: )
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Re: [Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

Postby Big Mac » Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:24 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:I found a post of Keith in Enworld about this (and I'm searching now the article he mentioned):


Thanks for that.

I got a dead link from Google (and the usual "add archive to the start of the URL" trick did not work).

According to RPG Geek, it comes from Dragon (Issue 408 - Feb 2012). That probably makes it DDI content. WotC have been pulling down all the DDI content, so that they could get people to go buy it from DMs Guild.

So this should be the right issue: Dragon 408.

Annoyingly the DMs Guild page doesn't list the contents of the magazine (although it does list Keith Baker as an author). It seems that all the preview text that WotC used to have on their doorway pages is not being copied across.
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Re: [Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

Postby Beoric » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:56 pm

Big Mac wrote:An "island in the Sea of Siberys"? But Siberys is a ring of asteroids. :?


Siberys is a ring of something, which appears to include siberys dragonshards. The Sea of Siberys is a portion of the cosmos corresponding to the Astral Sea, through which many of the more "positively oriented" planes travel. From the ECG at p. 261:

"The shattered physical body of Siberys is visible across the sky of Eberron at night as a glowing golden ring. but the Ring of Siberys points to a greater reality beyond - the Astral Sea, also called the Sea of Siberys. If the gods exist in any kind of physical or manifest form, their homes are hidden deep within the Astral Sea or, perhaps, beyond it."

Although, I note that Khyber, which is a dragon absorbed by another dragon, or the area beneath the planet Eberron's crust, is infinitely large and contains many pocket dimensions. It is possible that Khyber actually contains the Elemental Chaos, or Khyber and the Elemental Chaos are one and the same; and perhaps it is the same for Siberys. Perhaps the Ring of Siberys and the Sea of Siberys are different manifestations of the same thing, and all of the planes of Daanvi, Irian, Syriana, Mabar, Lammania and Shavarath are contained within both the Sea and the Ring.
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Re: [Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

Postby enderxenocide0 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:29 pm

This is all under the assumption that you follow the 4E books. 3.5's ECS seems to pretty clearly indicate that the Ring of Siberys is a physical ring of Siberys Dragonshards and is not specifically related to the Astral Plane that is mentioned in different contexts through the book.

Eberron Campaign Setting, pg. 92 wrote:Eberron spins within its own Material Plane, enfolded
by three coexistent transitive planes: the Astral Plane,
the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow, just as in
the core D&D cosmology (see Chapter 5 of the Dungeon
Master’s Guide).

Within Eberron’s Astral Plane, thirteen planes revolve
in a complex orbit a round the Material Plane.
...
The thirteen orbiting planes are separate from
each other, with no connections between them. They
are coexistent with the Astral Plane, but separate from
the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow, so certain
spells (ethereal jaunt and shadow walk, for example) aren’t
available to casters on these planes. Each of them occasionally
becomes coterminous with the Material Plane,
allowing connections between the planes (see Planar
Connections, below).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 4E considers the Shadowfell to be another name for Dolurrh, and also the standard name for 4E's Plane of Shadow... but 3.5's Plane of Shadow is explicitly not the same as Dolurrh. Similarly, the Astral Plane in 3.5 isn't the same as the Ring of Siberys. The term "Sea of Siberys" doesn't even appear in the 3.5 books. My interpretation of 3.5's descriptions is that the Ring of Siberys is fairly clearly a physical ring of Siberys dragonshards.

Eberron Campaign Setting, pg. 129 wrote:In literal terms, the Dragon Above corresponds to the
ring of dragonshards that encircles the world high above
the equator. The Ring of Siberys can be seen in the southern
sky, appearing as a luminescent band of golden specks that
begins the winter equinox narrow and intense and becomes
wider and more diffuse as the year progresses. It can be seen
best at night but is visible during the day as well.


The moons? That's a little questionable. They appear to have some physical form... but I don't think that's made explicit anywhere, except in that they have observable features and physical effects on Eberron.

The Moons of Eberron wrote:The sky of Eberron is full of wonders. The Ring of Siberys stretches over the equator, its glittering stones
standing out even in the light of day. Sages trace images of celestial dragon patterns of the stars. And twelve
moons circle the planet, filling the night sky with color and light.

This multitude of moons affects Eberron in many ways. While Zarantyr has the greatest influence over the tides
of Eberron, each moon has its own impact on wind and water, and lunar conjunctions can have dramatic effects
that can spawn adventures. A confluence of moons can pull back the waters, revealing ancient ruins along the
shores of Xen'drik. Sailors speak of maelstroms that arise when Zarantyr eclipses Aryth -- vast whirlpools that
can draw a ship into the elemental oceans of Lamannia or the endless frozen sea of Risia.

The same article gives approximate diameters of the moons as well as mean distances. Neither of these are relevant if there aren't physical bodies orbiting the planet. For me, I treat everything in Eberron as being governed by physical laws of our reality until that is contradicted by something in the setting. So I see no reason to assume that the sun is anything but a giant nuclear reaction.
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Re: [Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

Postby Zeromaru X » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:17 pm

enderxenocide0 wrote:This is all under the assumption that you follow the 4E books. 3.5's ECS seems to pretty clearly indicate that the Ring of Siberys is a physical ring of Siberys Dragonshards and is not specifically related to the Astral Plane that is mentioned in different contexts through the book.


Well, the Astral Sea in 4e doubles for the Astral Plane were the Outer Planes exist and the Wildspace between worlds (you can spelljammer in the Astral Sea, and in 4e Forgotten Realm Campaign Setting is stated the phlogiston is outside of it). If you're translating stuff from 4e to 3e, you have to pull the physical objects out of the Astral and put then in the "void" outside the planet. That's why stuff like the Ring of Syberis is tied to the Astral Sea in 4e, because exist outside of the planet.

enderxenocide0 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but 4E considers the Shadowfell to be another name for Dolurrh, and also the standard name for 4E's Plane of Shadow... but 3.5's Plane of Shadow is explicitly not the same as Dolurrh. Similarly, the Astral Plane in 3.5 isn't the same as the Ring of Siberys. The term "Sea of Siberys" doesn't even appear in the 3.5 books. My interpretation of 3.5's descriptions is that the Ring of Siberys is fairly clearly a physical ring of Siberys dragonshards.


Yeah, Dolurrh is the Shadowfell in 4e (or at least it has that name). You have to take into account, though, that the Shadowfell isn't required in 4e for spell and powers based in shadow stuff, that is one of the functions the Plane of Shadow has in 3.5. In 4e, those powers came from the Shadow Power source, that's similar to the Arcane Power source or the Divine Power source, for example. So, Dolurrh is the Shadowfell because it fulfills the role of this place of the 4e World Axis stuff: is were the dead go after they died. Not a place where you draw shadow powers for your magics.

enderxenocide0 wrote:The moons? That's a little questionable. They appear to have some physical form... but I don't think that's made explicit anywhere, except in that they have observable features and physical effects on Eberron.

The Moons of Eberron wrote:The sky of Eberron is full of wonders. The Ring of Siberys stretches over the equator, its glittering stones
standing out even in the light of day. Sages trace images of celestial dragon patterns of the stars. And twelve
moons circle the planet, filling the night sky with color and light.

This multitude of moons affects Eberron in many ways. While Zarantyr has the greatest influence over the tides
of Eberron, each moon has its own impact on wind and water, and lunar conjunctions can have dramatic effects
that can spawn adventures. A confluence of moons can pull back the waters, revealing ancient ruins along the
shores of Xen'drik. Sailors speak of maelstroms that arise when Zarantyr eclipses Aryth -- vast whirlpools that
can draw a ship into the elemental oceans of Lamannia or the endless frozen sea of Risia.


The same article gives approximate diameters of the moons as well as mean distances. Neither of these are relevant if there aren't physical bodies orbiting the planet. For me, I treat everything in Eberron as being governed by physical laws of our reality until that is contradicted by something in the setting. So I see no reason to assume that the sun is anything but a giant nuclear reaction.


As I said before, since the Astral Sea doubles in 4e for the Astral Plane and the Wildspace, the moons in 4e are more asequible and physical in 4e Eberron than in 3.5 Eberron. You can just pull out the moons from the "physical" part of Astral Sea if you want to experience the 3e Eberron feel in 4e (mechanically speaking, that affect nothing in 4e).

As for the effects of the moons on the planet of Eberron, are the same in 4e.
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Re: [Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

Postby Beoric » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:31 pm

enderxenocide0 wrote:This is all under the assumption that you follow the 4E books. 3.5's ECS seems to pretty clearly indicate that the Ring of Siberys is a physical ring of Siberys Dragonshards and is not specifically related to the Astral Plane that is mentioned in different contexts through the book.


Of course you are free to ignore any part of canon in your home game. However, I'm not sure that is the appropriate basis for arguing whether something is or is not canon. Baator exists as part of canon. It is not a full plane, but rather a demiplane, as part of canon. It is in the "Sea of Siberys" as part of canon. The Sea of Siberys = Astral Sea is part of canon. You don't have to use any of it, but I don't think you can argue that any of it is wrong or inaccurate.
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Re: [Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

Postby ripvanwormer » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:11 am

There's something broadly similar in 3e Dragonlance: the Astral, Ethereal, and Shadow planes were said to be associated with the moons Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari, respectively, as well as with the three outer planes of that cosmology. It doesn't mean that Solinari and the Astral Plane are literally the same place, just that there's supposed to be an association or correspondence between them. Similarly, I wouldn't necessarily assume that the Ring of Siberys and the Sea of Siberys are the same thing. It could just be that sages named one after the other, perhaps in an attempt to be poetic. Keep in mind that the word "Astral" means starry, so the Astral Plane is supposed to be metaphysically or metaphorically equivalent to outer space in any case. Calling it the Sea of Siberys is just a way of making the metaphor Eberron-specific rather than generic.

That's not to say you couldn't have the Sea and the Ring be in some sense the same thing in your campaign, just that I don't think it's a necessary conclusion.
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Re: [Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

Postby Beoric » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:48 am

Another quote from p. 261 of the EPG, under the header "Creation" and immediately following the creation myth:

"The Dragon Above, the Dragon Below, and the Dragon Between are more than ancient dragons of legend, and they are not merely the physical segments
of the world. They are also the three great divisions of the universe: the Astral Sea above, the Elemental Chaos below, and the world between."

The thing about the creation myth is that it is expressly stated that no one really knows if it is true. So the relationship can be physical, metaphysical or nonexistent according to the DM's wishes.
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Re: [Shardspace] Why does 4e Eberron have an extra moon?

Postby enderxenocide0 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:48 pm

Beoric wrote:
enderxenocide0 wrote:This is all under the assumption that you follow the 4E books. 3.5's ECS seems to pretty clearly indicate that the Ring of Siberys is a physical ring of Siberys Dragonshards and is not specifically related to the Astral Plane that is mentioned in different contexts through the book.


Of course you are free to ignore any part of canon in your home game. However, I'm not sure that is the appropriate basis for arguing whether something is or is not canon. Baator exists as part of canon. It is not a full plane, but rather a demiplane, as part of canon. It is in the "Sea of Siberys" as part of canon. The Sea of Siberys = Astral Sea is part of canon. You don't have to use any of it, but I don't think you can argue that any of it is wrong or inaccurate.

It's a question of two conflicting sources of canon. Sure, 4E is more recent and perhaps thusly takes precedent, but when there are issues with meshing it with the far larger amount of Eberron sources for 3.5, I tend to ignore most of 4E's changes and additions, however minor they may seem, for ease of using the bulk of 3.5's canon. Unlike Forgotten Realms, where 4E's changes were explained by the timeline advance and the advent of the Spellplague, the changes made to Eberron have no such justification and some directly conflict with older sources. I'm not saying any of 4E's changes are wrong or innaccurate, but I am stressing that if we use the 3.5 and 4E sources for information (on the Moon Breaker, Moons of Eberron, Dragonshards, etc) we have to be careful that we are vetting our sources to make sure conflicts don't arise.

ADDENDUM: To clarify, conflicting sources of canon occur within 3.5 as well, so this isn't something that only occurs between 3.5 and 4. In general, we have to look at different sources and see what conflicts and why in order to properly answer a question with regards to canon.
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