Dragons equivalent to the Sovereing Host

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Zeromaru X
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Dragons equivalent to the Sovereing Host

Post by Zeromaru X » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:36 am

I know that dragons believe their ancestors are the source of the current humanoid gods. Dragons also believe that worthy dragons "ascend" and become the newer incarnation of the host when they do remarkable stuff. I find this theory really interesting and logical. Maybe primitive humanoids began to revere certain dragons, and as civilization evolved, that worship transformed into a proper religion.

However, the only historical dragon related to the host that I've found is Ourelonastrix, who potentially is the origin of the god Aureon. Dragons even call the fact that Ourelonastrix gave magic to non-dragons as kurash Ourelonastrix, that is translated to common tongue as "Aureon Folly" (Dragons of Eberron, p.11).

There are other known historical dragon related to other members of the Sovereing Host?

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Re: Dragons equivalent to the Sovereing Host

Post by Beoric » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:22 am

Possibly the red dragon Dularanahk, who may be Dol Arrah. Hellcow talked about him/her in this post: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15945.

One can guess about the color of the dragons from their depictions as described in the "Religion" section of the ECS.

Edit: Also, p. 30-31 of the ECG says the dracolich Mazyralyx may be the inspiration for the Keeper.

I saw a reference to Durlazurak being Dol Azur, The Mockery - but I'm not sure of the source for that.

Edit #2: I found this post by Hellcow in an archived thread from the WotC site:

"One of the key points of Thir is that dragons aspire to godhood by embodying the ideals of one of their gods. You become the next Aureon by excelling at those values Aureon embodies. According to Thir, Ourelonastrix was the FIRST "Aureon" - but not the last. The myth is that Aureon taught the secrets of magic to the giants of Xen'drik. But most likely that was a mortal wyrm following the path of Aureon - not Ourelonastrix, who was likely long dead at that point.

"So if you look to the first myths, you may find your answers in the first age. Ourelonastrix as Aureon. The deeds of Dularanahk are remembered in myths of Dol Arrah, along with the flaying of her treacherous brother Dulazurak. Even if they became Sovereign archetypes of Thir, some of the original myths of the Dark Six could easily be based on Overlords fought by the proto-Sovereigns. Given that Tiamat has power over the hearts of dragons, I like the idea that Tiamat may actually play the role of the Devourer in the **** of Arawai scenario. Tiamat corrupted the egg of a noble bronze dragon, producing a Khyber wyrm with the power to drive other dragons to madness - but who still had some of the nobility of her mother, being capable of inspiration as well as rage.

"In any case, my point is that whatever the origin of the FIRST myths, over the course of history many mortal or immortal beings may have played the roles of the Sovereigns. Even looking to Thir, the founder of the Library of Korranberg believed that he could displace the dragons to become Aureon himself. If there's any truth to that, there's lots of possibilities. Sora Kell as the Traveler is an interesting one. She's a wanderer and a shapeshifter. She might not be the ONLY Traveler in history - but she could certainly be one of them. "

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Re: Dragons equivalent to the Sovereing Host

Post by Zeromaru X » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:00 am

Thanks. I guess I'll have to get the 3.5 eberron books.

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Re: Dragons equivalent to the Sovereing Host

Post by AvonRekaes » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:47 pm

I would highly recommend them! Besides the original Eberron Campaign Setting book, I'd recommend Dragons of Eberron (listed first because that seems to be the most relevant to your question here), Sharn: City of Towers, City of Stormreach, Secrets of Sarlona, Five Nations and the Explorer's Handbook
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Re: Dragons equivalent to the Sovereing Host

Post by Big Mac » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:51 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:Thanks. I guess I'll have to get the 3.5 eberron books.
If you check the Eberron page on The Book-House on The Piazza, you will see that some of the Eberron books are fairly cheap on the second-hand market.

If there is anything expensive that you are after (I'm still after a couple of books) don't forget that DMs Guild have started to put out books on Print on Demand. I'm assuming that Eberron will eventually come back as PoD too.

In the meantime, try looking around Eberron Wiki. I'm sure you can find some good information there that will help you start learning before you get the books.
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Re: Dragons equivalent to the Sovereing Host

Post by Zeromaru X » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:46 pm

AvonRekaes wrote:I would highly recommend them! Besides the original Eberron Campaign Setting book, I'd recommend Dragons of Eberron (listed first because that seems to be the most relevant to your question here), Sharn: City of Towers, City of Stormreach, Secrets of Sarlona, Five Nations and the Explorer's Handbook
Dragons of Eberron is the only Eberron 3.5 book I have (and I got it only because there is a 4e conversion for it, making it useful to my table). But I guess I would get the other books, at least to get information.

City of Stormreach has a 4e conversion as well, I guess I will start with that one.

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Re: Dragons equivalent to the Sovereing Host

Post by Beoric » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:13 am

I find the conversions, including City of Stromreach, tend to underestimate the appropriate level for the 4e version of the character/monster. IMO, the level range of 1-5 in most editions more or less corresponds to the entire Heroic tier of levels 1-10 in 4e, in terms of resources available to the party (when resources like flight or certain times of divination magic kick in, for example), and in terms of overall feel.

So, for instance, Stepping Jaq, who is CR 8 in the sourcebook, is converted as a level 8 elite, whereas I would have made him a level 8 solo or a level 13 elite, depending on how I wanted to use him.

My rule of thumb for converting 3.5 creatures to 4e is to double the CR and make the creature an elite for CRs 1-5, and to add 5 and make it an elite for levels 6-15. So a CR 3 would be a level 6 elite, and a CR 6 would be a level 11 elite. Having never played or run games in the Epic tier, I haven't quite figured out what I will do with high level conversions; CR 16-20 = CR 21-25 looks like it would work in theory, but I have no sense of how 3e works at high levels, or how to map high levels in 3 to upper Epic in 4e.

Which is, I guess, a long-winded way of saying that the existence of conversion notes is not a great barometer of the usefulness of a book. Unless you are already planning on running games in Stormreach, you might want to start with something else. And note that 3e Eberron Campaign Setting has a surprising amount of different material from the 4e Eberron Campaign Guide; while there is good material in both, the 3e book does a better job of conveying the flavour of Eberron.

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Re: Dragons equivalent to the Sovereing Host

Post by HellcowKeith » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:30 am

The examples given are the only names that have been dropped.

As with many things, it's ultimately up to you to decide. The DRAGONS assert that draconic champions in the Age of Demons ascended to become the first Sovereigns. However, it's possible that they simply inspired some of the myths told about them... or if the Sovereigns are truly divine entities, that the Sovereigns inspired THEM to embody them in the world.

Essentially, there is an idea in the world that mortals could ascend to become divine. If you want to use that as a theme in your campaign, there's your precedent. But if you DON'T like it, then the dragons were themselves inspired by the Sovereigns.
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