How to handle flame Touched Iron & Byeshk in 5e?

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How to handle flame Touched Iron & Byeshk in 5e?

Postby tetrasodium » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:41 am

Back in 3.5 it was easy since tons of stuff had Damage reduction. in 5e there are a few things with resistance to nonmagic weapons that are not silver/adamantine, but those are few & far between by comparison.

I've been using PHB148 silvered weapons +100gp cost for Byeshk & just applying resistance to nonmagical weapons that are not byeshk to anything even remotely Daelkyr related, with great success... But flame touched iron has been bothering me since one of my players asked "are there any other eberron specific metals?" because the things it used to bypass needed more than just magic weapons (ie dr/- mummy, dr/ +X weapons, or dr/ $alignment) to make it a meaningful thing at the levels players would encounter those things.

How would you handle flametouched iron in 5e?
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Re: How to handle flame Touched Iron & Byeshk in 5e?

Postby tetrasodium » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:53 pm

I was hoping someone might have a simple "I've been doing X & it worked ok", but I think that I've decided on how to handle Flame touched iron.
  • Against most creatures, A weapon made of flametouched iron deals normal slash/pierce/bludgeon damage
  • If the creature being atacked is a fiend or undead, it counts as radiant damage

Armor made from either byeshk or flametouched iron grants advantage to saving throws against Daelkyr & their close servants (for byeshk) or the same against fiends/undead for armor made of flametouched iron
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Re: How to handle flame Touched Iron & Byeshk in 5e?

Postby AvonRekaes » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:21 pm

I like that for Flametouched iron weapons!

I have my own rules for byeshk, but you seem to have had that covered so I didn't weigh in. And I had actually forgotten about Flametouched iron.

What would you do with a Flametouched iron holy symbol?
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Re: How to handle flame Touched Iron & Byeshk in 5e?

Postby tetrasodium » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:10 pm

AvonRekaes wrote:I like that for Flametouched iron weapons!

I have my own rules for byeshk, but you seem to have had that covered so I didn't weigh in. And I had actually forgotten about Flametouched iron.

What would you do with a Flametouched iron holy symbol?


I'm honestly not sure with flametouched holy symbol, I can't remember if it did anything special in the past though. Out of curiosity, how do you handle byeshk?

Edit
; just looked it up.
ECS122 wrote:Holy Symbol. Flametouched Iron: A holy symbol sacred to the Church oi’the Silver Flame is made from flametouebed iron. it allows a character who can turn undead or censure fiends to do so as ifhis class level were one level higher than it actually is. A character who does not normally have the ability to turn undead does not gain it by virtue of wielding such a holy symbol. See Special Materials later in this chapter for more information about flametouched iron.

Maybe the same basic thing? treat channel divinity as one cleric level higher? It wouldn't do anything for something like knowledge domain or guided strike, but I think it would be useful for the majority of cleric domains
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Re: How to handle flame Touched Iron & Byeshk in 5e?

Postby AvonRekaes » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:34 pm

I decided to treat special material weapons like how the DMG treats adamantine armor. So I made a "magic item" entry for adamantine, byshek, and mithral weapons. (Except I gave them all market values instead of a rarity rating)

Byshek Weapon
Weapon (any), 5,000 gp
Byshek weapons are created from one of the densest, heaviest metals on Eberron. The value of byshek (which is usually only used in fine jewelry), makes constructing an entire weapon out of it extremely expensive.
Byshek weapons that deal slashing or piercing damage gain no benefit other than being made from byshek (which is required for bypassing the defenses of certain kinds of monsters, such as dolgrims and mind flayers). However, byshek weapons that deal bludgeoning damage also gain a +3 bonus to their damage rolls.

Adamantine weapons are similar, except only slashing and piercing weapons get the damage bonus. Mithral weapons get a +3 bonus to attack rolls, but no bonus to damage rolls.

As for your suggestion for Flametouched Iron, I think you're implying to let it apply to all Channel Divinity powers? Interesting. Would it make more sense for it to only apply to channel divinity powers of the domains the Silver Flame grants? I forget exactly how Flametouched Iron is made/refined/naturally occurs, and if it's actually magically tied to the Silver Flame or not.
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Re: How to handle flame Touched Iron & Byeshk in 5e?

Postby tetrasodium » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:19 pm

AvonRekaes wrote:I decided to treat special material weapons like how the DMG treats adamantine armor. So I made a "magic item" entry for adamantine, byshek, and mithral weapons. (Except I gave them all market values instead of a rarity rating)

Byshek Weapon
Weapon (any), 5,000 gp
Byshek weapons are created from one of the densest, heaviest metals on Eberron. The value of byshek (which is usually only used in fine jewelry), makes constructing an entire weapon out of it extremely expensive.
Byshek weapons that deal slashing or piercing damage gain no benefit other than being made from byshek (which is required for bypassing the defenses of certain kinds of monsters, such as dolgrims and mind flayers). However, byshek weapons that deal bludgeoning damage also gain a +3 bonus to their damage rolls.

Adamantine weapons are similar, except only slashing and piercing weapons get the damage bonus. Mithral weapons get a +3 bonus to attack rolls, but no bonus to damage rolls.

As for your suggestion for Flametouched Iron, I think you're implying to let it apply to all Channel Divinity powers? Interesting. Would it make more sense for it to only apply to channel divinity powers of the domains the Silver Flame grants? I forget exactly how Flametouched Iron is made/refined/naturally occurs, and if it's actually magically tied to the Silver Flame or not.



I left out the +3 intentionally because 5e is a lot different that 3.5's magic item treadmill & I give out more unique & minor magic items akin to the sharn feather token with very few that are just +x ones compared to most faerun/FR ones & a nonmagic weapon. but your post made me think a bit. the Dhakaani empire was far more advanced than even house Cannith with regards to metallurgy, a +3 byshek weapon would be in that vein since the whole point of byeshk/flametouched weapons is that they are nonmagical weapons that bypass resistances of creatures that would otherwise require a magic weapon & it defeats the purpose if it is so expensive that you either A:can't afford it until well after you are swinging around a magic weapon or B: it's so valuable that you wouldn't dare not sell it & buy the most expensive PHB grade gear of the party's dreams.

Armor made from/with byeshk does the same advantage on saves but against daelkyr. Nobody has inquired about it yet though so I'm free to make changes there :D
  • Studded leather armor made with byeshk/flametouched studs costs an extra 250 gp (puts it firmly in tier1 or tier2 affordable range) with the next two putting them firmly in later in whatever tier you would normally afford it if not early the next one to give a nice "I'm saving up for X" goal after a player buys/finds their armor
  • Medium & heavy armor up to 14 AC (chain mail/scale mail/ringmail) made from it costs +750 GP.
  • armor15-18 AC costs +1500gp

IMO 5e doesn't seem to handle +x armor as well as 3.5 because the bonus stacks with ring of protection & such. So when I do give out magic armor/weapons, they are special & noteworthy rather than just +1. Earthmeld armor with a khyber shard small bound earth elemental& that allows meld into stone 1/day, a greataxe with a Siberys shard that allows an aberrant marked bearer to focus (w/second & third attacks, those extra d4's really scale) their mark through the weapon & expend a charge for 1 hr of that effect (if applicable) being applied to it (+1d4/2d4/3d4 fire damage at dragonmark breakpoint levels akin to cantrip scaling in the case of my player's aberrant mark but something else in the case of the dead aberrant villain they took it from). Yea "my ac is $really high number" might feel good, but it just forces the gm to throw out more powerful foes that will always hit squishier folks in order o hit you

.
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Re: How to handle flame Touched Iron & Byeshk in 5e?

Postby AvonRekaes » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:31 pm

I disagree on one of your points. Byshek/admantine/flametouched weapons SHOULD be so expensive that you can't afford them immediately the first time you run into creatures with those defenses. Why? Because those defenses are calculated into the Monster's CR assuming you CAN'T bypass them, and if every PC can easily do so the first time they become relevant, why even have monsters with those defenses at all?

They SHOULD be rare and/or expensive, because you want PCs to be excited for them when they attain them.

As for the +3, that is purely my own invention, so I don't see how you could have "left it out". Also, it's not a "+3 byshek weapon". The way I wrote it, all bludgeoning byshek weapons deal +3 damage, but they're not magic and they don't have a bonus to attack rolls like magic items do. As for your point about liking to give more interesting effects for magic items, I can get behind that, but byshek isn't magic, it's an inert lump of metal. If anything should give a "boring" static bonus, it should be items that aren't magical and just made out of a rare kind of material. With byshek armor granting advantage on saves, I can see that because it can just passively rebuff aberrant magic because of a property of the metal itself, but I would be more likely to say that kind of magic defense is granted from a magical amulet made of bysehk, with the magic of the amulet drawing out byshek's qualities to a supernatural degree.

This may be going off into a tangent, but I've done a looooot of thinking on magic items in 5e. In 5e, the system math does not factor in plusses at all, which is why every plus actually IS important when you find it. Unlike 3.5, you never "need" a magic +5 flaming holy keen weapon to feel effective. You don't need +5 heavy fortification full plate to feel sufficiently armored. So if you DO have "just" a +3 weapon, it is amazing oh my god you are hitting so much! If you DO get +3 full plate holy crap you are invincible wooo!

Does this make them gamebreaking? Yes, that's their purpose, and why magic weapons and armor are so rare as compared to previous editions. Notice the "IF"s at the end of that last paragraph. In 5e, +# equipment is not your right as a player to have. It always has a major impact on your effectiveness, so it's not just "nice", it's frankly amazing, and you are lucky to even have it. (That said, I never hand out "plain" +# equipment. I always roll on the random minor properties table in the DMG to make each one unique and colorful, and I try to give each one a name. Because even a +1 sword is a majestic amazing find in 5e, and each one deserves a history)
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Re: How to handle flame Touched Iron & Byeshk in 5e?

Postby tetrasodium » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:28 am

AvonRekaes wrote:I disagree on one of your points. Byshek/admantine/flametouched weapons SHOULD be so expensive that you can't afford them immediately the first time you run into creatures with those defenses. Why? Because those defenses are calculated into the Monster's CR assuming you CAN'T bypass them, and if every PC can easily do so the first time they become relevant, why even have monsters with those defenses at all?

They SHOULD be rare and/or expensive, because you want PCs to be excited for them when they attain them.

As for the +3, that is purely my own invention, so I don't see how you could have "left it out". Also, it's not a "+3 byshek weapon". The way I wrote it, all bludgeoning byshek weapons deal +3 damage, but they're not magic and they don't have a bonus to attack rolls like magic items do. As for your point about liking to give more interesting effects for magic items, I can get behind that, but byshek isn't magic, it's an inert lump of metal. If anything should give a "boring" static bonus, it should be items that aren't magical and just made out of a rare kind of material. With byshek armor granting advantage on saves, I can see that because it can just passively rebuff aberrant magic because of a property of the metal itself, but I would be more likely to say that kind of magic defense is granted from a magical amulet made of bysehk, with the magic of the amulet drawing out byshek's qualities to a supernatural degree.

This may be going off into a tangent, but I've done a looooot of thinking on magic items in 5e. In 5e, the system math does not factor in plusses at all, which is why every plus actually IS important when you find it. Unlike 3.5, you never "need" a magic +5 flaming holy keen weapon to feel effective. You don't need +5 heavy fortification full plate to feel sufficiently armored. So if you DO have "just" a +3 weapon, it is amazing oh my god you are hitting so much! If you DO get +3 full plate holy crap you are invincible wooo!

Does this make them gamebreaking? Yes, that's their purpose, and why magic weapons and armor are so rare as compared to previous editions. Notice the "IF"s at the end of that last paragraph. In 5e, +# equipment is not your right as a player to have. It always has a major impact on your effectiveness, so it's not just "nice", it's frankly amazing, and you are lucky to even have it. (That said, I never hand out "plain" +# equipment. I always roll on the random minor properties table in the DMG to make each one unique and colorful, and I try to give each one a name. Because even a +1 sword is a majestic amazing find in 5e, and each one deserves a history)


I can see your reasoning behind the cost & agree that the same +100gp as silver is probably a little too low, but 5,000gp is way too high since magic weapons bypass it too & a player is almost certain to have had an opportunity to obtain one or more of those long before they can affford +5,000 gp. You sad that byeshk only gets +3 damage on bludgeoning, but you also said you give the aimilar for adamantine & mithral with the other types. Regardless of if it is magic or not, it's still +3 to whatever. I said that I left it out intentionally because ECS 126 says that byeshk gives +1 enhancement bonus to damage rolls when you make a bludgeoning weapon made from it.


I would apply the bonus from a flametouched iron holy symbol to channel divinity for all of the cleric domains, it would not touch the spellcasting DC for casting spells just by virtue of being flametouched iron
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Re: How to handle flame Touched Iron & Byeshk in 5e?

Postby AvonRekaes » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:00 pm

Let me ask you a question.... Why do magic items bypass it too? Because that's how it works for, say, lycanthropes and golems? What's stopping you from writing the monsters with resistances to all but byeshk or flametouched iron differently? There's no reason the stat block couldn't read:

Damage Resistances bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from non-byeshk weapons

Regardless, 5,000 gp is exactly as rare as the DM wants it to be. There is no more wealth-by-character-level table in 5e. You could reward a 1st level party 5,000 gp as a reward on their first quest and it wouldn't break the game, because character power is no longer tied to wealth.
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Re: How to handle flame Touched Iron & Byeshk in 5e?

Postby tetrasodium » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:45 pm

AvonRekaes wrote:Let me ask you a question.... Why do magic items bypass it too? Because that's how it works for, say, lycanthropes and golems? What's stopping you from writing the monsters with resistances to all but byeshk or flametouched iron differently? There's no reason the stat block couldn't read:

Damage Resistances bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from non-byeshk weapons

Regardless, 5,000 gp is exactly as rare as the DM wants it to be. There is no more wealth-by-character-level table in 5e. You could reward a 1st level party 5,000 gp as a reward on their first quest and it wouldn't break the game, because character power is no longer tied to wealth.

yea on the where it needs to be, I just prefer the smaller numbers than having to hear "I've got $giant number gold". I mostly don't bother keeping track of minor expenses like inn/tavern stays & such too so it works out easy. 5000 just feels too similar to 3.5's +1,5000gp number.

Nothing stops from rewriting them like that, but the 3.5 era golf bag of gear is something I'm glad to see go & doing that would encourage ts return.
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Re: How to handle flame Touched Iron & Byeshk in 5e?

Postby HawkDiesel » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:19 am

So as I read through this thread, I am quickly reminded that resistance/immunity in 5e is overall MUCH easier to overcome. If your weapons don't seem to be dealing full damage, switch to a cantrip or some kind of spell. Most classes have access to spells which make it only the true frontline fighters that get impacted by the damage resistances/immunities of monsters. But perhaps creatures of Khyber, lycanthropes, and the fiends of Eberron should be treated a bit differently. Kick things up a notch.

Maybe, they become resistant/immune to all damage types unless the player is either using a byeshk/flametouched weapon OR channeling their magic through a spellcasting focus that uses those materials within their design (this would work doubly well for the Warcaster/Eldritch Knight that can use their weapons as a spellcasting focus).

This would make these weapons/foci much more valuable, while making encounters with these creatures that much more terrifying/difficult.
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Re: How to handle flame Touched Iron & Byeshk in 5e?

Postby tetrasodium » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:00 pm

HawkDiesel wrote:So as I read through this thread, I am quickly reminded that resistance/immunity in 5e is overall MUCH easier to overcome. If your weapons don't seem to be dealing full damage, switch to a cantrip or some kind of spell. Most classes have access to spells which make it only the true frontline fighters that get impacted by the damage resistances/immunities of monsters. But perhaps creatures of Khyber, lycanthropes, and the fiends of Eberron should be treated a bit differently. Kick things up a notch.

Maybe, they become resistant/immune to all damage types unless the player is either using a byeshk/flametouched weapon OR channeling their magic through a spellcasting focus that uses those materials within their design (this would work doubly well for the Warcaster/Eldritch Knight that can use their weapons as a spellcasting focus).

This would make these weapons/foci much more valuable, while making encounters with these creatures that much more terrifying/difficult.


Mwahaha.
  • Wizard: "the beholder is facing away from me since it's facing Alice right?... Good, I cast blight.lightning bolt/other high damage single target spell xx to hit/ save dc"
  • DM: Thaaats a hit, roll some dice y0!
  • Wizard: WOW! All 7's & 8's, 56 points of damage! That's gonna make him think twice!
  • DM: Bob reaches out with his hand to form the last arcane symbol in his spell just moments before a crackling beam of deadly necrotic energy streaks out to crash into the beholder's back... however everyone make an int save dc5
  • Alice, Bob, Christie, Dave, Edith: 6 17 2 12 11
  • DM: as the dark energy impacts on the beholder, something about the Former denzien of Xoriat causes a good bot of the energy to do strange things rather than flay open the floating orb of angry. Most of you are smart enough not to think too hard about it, but Christie, give me a wisdom save.
  • Christie: f... ff...fffffour?[/b]
  • DM: Christie, you had a perfect view of that impact & saw the whole thing as the beam of necrotic energy was warped, twisted, & corrupted by the beholder's insanity, the whole process Has left you a little shaken and uncomfortable. Roll your next attack with disadvantage
  • Wizard: so did I deal full or reduced damage? I'm confused, -dice clatter- what happened? does a dc12 arcana tell me anything?
  • DM: You are fairly certain that he reality warping madness from Xoiat still clings to the beholder in a way that corrupted the spell & would need the stabalizing influence of a byeshk focus device to overcome it in the future
  • Alice, Bob, Christie, Dave, Edith: -Begin sweating bullets-
plus similar but different for flametouched iron & powerful undead beyond mere zombies & skeletons. :D
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