Warforged Titan 5e

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Warforged Titan 5e

Postby HawkDiesel » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:02 am

Hey guys,

My players have had the misfortune of crossing paths with the Lord of Blades, and may fight against one of his Warforged Titans. I statted this guy up, enhancing him a bit from what I think the average Warforged Titan could do. What are people's thoughts?

The creature before you stands about 25 feet tall and has obvious stains of dried blood from the many creatures it has slaughtered. It is a terrifying sight to behold, causing you to tremble as you consider how anyone could possibly face this thing in battle. Unlike most warforged titans, the right arm ends in a massive gauntlet with thick digits that fit tightly together and sharp knuckles to focus the massive force behind each blow. This allows the Warforged Titan to grab hold of creatures or objects to launch them through the air. The left arm ends in the familiar ultra-sharp axe, but above the wrist and running down the length of its massive forearm appears to be a small tree trunk carved to a point and etched in continuous stripes of glowing runes.

Warforged Titan
Huge Construct
________________________________________
Armor Class 22 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points 350
Speed 50 ft.
________________________________________
STR 24 (+7)
DEX 8 (-1)
CON 16 (+3)
INT 6 (-2)
WIS 11 (+0)
CHA 10 (+0)
________________________________________
Saving Throws Str +11, Con +7
Skills Athletics +11
Damage Vulnerabilities acid
Damage Resistances bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing
Damage Immunities poison
Condition Immunities exhaustion, poisoned, suffocation
Sense darkvision 60’, passive Perception 10
Languages Understands Common
________________________________________

Siege Weapon. A Warforged Titan deals double its maximum damage against structures and objects.

Terrifying Construct. The first time an enemy creature sees the Warforged Titan, it must make a Wisdom saving throw (DC 18) or become frightened. A frightened creature may repeat its saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on a successful save. Those that save against this ability cannot be affected by the same Warforged Titan’s Terrifying Construct ability for 24 hours. Those immune to fear effects are also immune to this ability.

Warforged Fortitude. A Warforged Titan is immune to critical hits as long as it has at least half its hit points.

ACTIONS
Multiattack. The Warforged Titan may make two attacks in any combination using its Hammer Fist, Throw Person, or Cleaving Axe attacks.

Hammer Fist. Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 15 ft., one creature. Hit: 4d12 + 7 bludgeoning damage, and target must make a Strength saving throw (DC 18) or be thrown 10 ft in a direction of the choosing.

Cleaving Axe. Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 15 ft., one creature. Hit: 4d12 + 7 slashing damage. In addition, each creature within 5 ft of the target that would be hit by the attack also takes the damage.

Throw Person. Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 15 ft., one creature. Hit: When a medium or small creature is hit with this attack, they are thrown 1d6+1 x 10 ft. in a direction of the Warforged Titan’s choosing. The target takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage per 10 ft. thrown, and may make a Dexterity check (DC 15) or land prone. Large sized creatures are thrown half this distance. Creatures larger than large size cannot be thrown using this ability.

Siege Wand (Recharge on a 5 or 6). Ranged Spell Attack: Line effect 500 ft. long and 10 ft. wide. Those caught within the line effect must make a Dexterity saving throw (DC 18) or take 5d10 fire damage, save for half.

BONUS ACTIONS
Powerful Charge. As a bonus action the Warforged Titan can move up to its full movement speed and make one attack with its hammer fist. If this attack hits, in addition to the normal damage the target must make a Strength saving throw (DC 18) or be throne 20ft directly away from the Warforged Titan, landing prone, and take an additional 2d6 bludgeoning damage.

LEGENDARY ACTIONS
A Warforged Titan has one legendary action per round, recharging at the beginning of their turn. The Warforged Titan can use its Powerful Charge, Hammer Fist, Cleaving Axe, or Throw Person attacks either immediately before or after another player’s turn.
Last edited by HawkDiesel on Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby AvonRekaes » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:28 am

This looks really cool. I love the addition of the siege staff above what the 3.5 titan had. And I really dig the throw person attack.

My main concern (besides this beast's CR being missing) is that AC 22 seems pretty outrageous.

Also I'm not sure I totally agree with titans having legendary actions. They don't seem to me to be mythic creatures and definitely aren't unique. But you did mention this one being tougher than an "average" titan. Maybe this legendary one has a particular history and a nickname? Like "Goliath" as in "That's not just any warforged titan..... That's Goliath, the Doom of Cadrigan! RUN!"

If not, it's legendary action, since it only has one, can his be a Reaction with an easy trigger like "when an enemy ends it's turn within 15 feet of the warforged titan"
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby HawkDiesel » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:49 pm

@AvonRekaes

Thanks for the feedback! It made me realize that I should preface a few little tidbits that went into my design process.

First of all, I don't use CR. I've never found it to be a useful metric for determining the "appropriateness" of a combat, and have never really developed an ability to gauge what kind of CR I should give my homebrew creations.

Second, my games tend to be a bit more powerful, so I increase the power of my monster creations to compensate. For use outside my games, an AC between 18-20 would likely be more appropriate.

Finally, I don't view legendary actions as being the sole purview of... well... creatures of legend. I see legendary actions as a means for a monster or challenge to be more capable as a solo challenge. And when I think of a Warforged Titan, especially one specifically modified by the Lord of Blades, it is going to be a terrifying combatant that could destroy whole platoons of soldiers.
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby enderxenocide0 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:24 pm

I felt compelled to determine the CR of this creature for you. In general, I find it's good practice to determine CR if you're going to present your creations to anyone outside of your own game, so that they have an understanding of where it fits among the rest of the monsters.

Offensive Challenge Rating

Cleaving Axe is its optimal attack for damage per round, so assume it uses it for each round's multiattack, followed by Powerful Charge, and then one Cleaving Axe as a legendary action.

Round 1: 2x Cleaving Axe (assumed to hit 2 targets each because of adjacency) deals 132 damage plus Powerful Charge deals 40 damage, for a total of 172 damage.
Legendary 1: Cleaving Axe (assumed to hit 2 targets because of adjacency) deals 66 damage.
Round 2: 2x Cleaving Axe (assumed to hit 2 targets each because of adjacency) deals 132 damage plus Powerful Charge deals 40 damage, for a total of 172 damage.
Legendary 2: Cleaving Axe (assumed to hit 2 targets because of adjacency) deals 66 damage.
Round 3: 2x Cleaving Axe (assumed to hit 2 targets each because of adjacency) deals 132 damage plus Powerful Charge deals 40 damage, for a total of 172 damage.
Legendary 3: Cleaving Axe (assumed to hit 2 targets because of adjacency) deals 66 damage.

Total Damage over 3 rounds: 714
Average Damage per round: 236

That places its starting offensive CR at the very upper limit of CR 26. The attack bonus is only one lower, so there's no change there. Offensive CR is 26.

Sidenote: A CR 26 creature would normally have a proficiency bonus of +8 instead of the titan's +4 you have listed, which would actually adjust the attack bonus up to a +15, which would then adjust the OCR to 28, but I'm ignoring that for this analysis.

Defensive Challenge Rating

Hit Points: Huge creatures use d12 hit dice (average of 6.5 hp), so we've got 9.5 hp per hit die (factoring in a CON mod of +3). That's 36.8 hit dice. Maybe round this down to 36 hit dice for an hp of 342. But, honestly, 36 hit dice is a ridiculously large number. I'd consider increasing it's CON score to keep the hit dice down (not that it makes a huge difference from the hp standpoint). Anyway, 342 or 350 hit points places it at a starting defensive challenge rating of 19.

AC: An AC of 22 is 3 points higher than an AC of 19 suggested for a creature with CR of 19, so increase the Defensive Challenge Rating by 1 to 20.

Final Challenge Rating

Averaging the OCR of 26 and the DCR or 20, we get a CR of 23.

---

Did you intend for the creature to be as powerful as this? I would highly recommend that Powerful Charge not be a bonus action, since that lets it tack that on to its Multiattack Action. Cleaving Axe also probably shouldn't be one of the Multiattack Options since it is equivalent to an area of effect attack, which are typically relegated to single actions, given they can affect multiple targets. Throw Person should probably require the Titan to have grappled the creature first as opposed to a straight attack roll.
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby HawkDiesel » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:22 pm

@enderxenocide0

Thanks for that, it's interesting to see how you calculated the CR. I think perhaps reducing the damage to 3d12 for Hammer Fist and Cleaving Axe is appropriate for my needs. With Powerful Charge I'll keep it a bonus action move towards an enemy, and if it uses Hammer Fist immediately after it doubles the Hammer Fist knockback.

Personally I think the Throw Person ability is fine as is and I'm ok with Cleaving Axe being used with the Multiattack.

The games I run tend to be pretty high on the power level curve, and this is not meant to be a fight the PCs can win at this time. I don't always plan encounters with the assumption that the PCs should be able to win. I don't believe that's realistic in what should be a living, breathing world. As it is, if the PCs were to engage the WF Titan, they could survive a couple rounds, but would understand that they'd need to retreat or die.
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby enderxenocide0 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:45 pm

Also to note: I forgot to calculate in the damage resistances, which increases the effective hit points to 437.5, starting the Defensive Challenge Rating at CR 21. The AC is still 3 points higher, so the final DCR would be 22. Final CR averages out now to 24.

If you reduce the damage to 3d12 for the attacks and remove the extra hit from Powerful Charge, you get average damage per round of 159. That's a starting Offensive Challenge Rating of 22. Attack bonus matches, so an OCR of 22. Averaging OCR of 22 with the newly-calculated DCR of 22, means the final CR would only drop to 22.

Out of curiosity, what level are your players and how many hit points do they have? On average, the damage output of the newly-recalculated Titan is enough to drop 2 level 13 barbarians with CON 20 and average hit point die rolls every other round (or every 4 rounds if they're already raging). That says nothing of classes with fewer hit point on average.
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby AvonRekaes » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:56 pm

Hawk, I mean no disrespect whatsoever by this question, but are you new to DMing 5th edition? Perhaps continuing a campaign from Pathfinder, 3.5, or another system and converting everyone over to 5e?

If not, I apologize for asking. I know the question sounds derogatory and I'm not really sure how to phrase it more politely.

The only reason I even ask is that your attitudes towards CR seem to me to be more appropriate to Pathfinder or 3.X (but that's just my experience). In Pathfinder/3.X, CR was much more nebulous and hard to quantify, but 5th edition does a remarkable job of making CR calculation a science instead of an art. The process that Ender used to calculate your titan's CR is the exact one used in the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the exact one WotC uses to pinpoint the CR of monsters in the Monster Manual and adventure books. I was actually about to calculate the titan's CR for you myself before I checked back in today and saw Ender beat me to it.
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby HawkDiesel » Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:22 pm

@AvonRekaes - No disrespect taken, it's a fair question. While I would say most of my gaming experience has been with 3.5, I actually prefer 5e in terms of character design and with much of the streamlining of many aspects of language and rules. But that doesn't mean that it is a perfect system for my table. From my experience, unless you use 5e exactly as is, without inclusion of UAs or the optional Feat rules, my players tend to be pretty difficult to challenge using the given monsters and encounters. And even when you limit feats and UAs, the philosophy of 5e seems to be in favor of the players always making it out ok. In addition, so much of 5e requires this notion of bounded accuracy, which while the idea is nice, I have never seen it actually work as intended.

In my games, players have many magic items and are granted boons along the way that make them far more effective than typical characters of the same level. In addition, my players get max HPs every level, as well as use a variant of Fighting Spirit as proposed by Angry Dm, and have access to most content in UA. We also use a variant to critical hits and failures that has thus far seemed to favor the players very well. Not to mention most of the magic items provided or boons granted are not strictly mechanical pluses to stats, skills, or damage, but flavorful things fitting to their character that provide them new options and enhancements that they couldn't otherwise get. So with this, combined with each of them being very competent players, this makes challenging them difficult. I have put creatures in their way both homebrew and by the book that I thought would be tough, but they find a clever way to defeat it or subvert it.

And i love that! My table is all about creating fun stories of both epic success and stunning failure. And I recognize not every table is the same and that everyone uses D&D for different purposes. So I statted this creature up to create a nearly impossible challenge. I don't want to say they just know they can't beat it, as that feels like railroading. But I also don't want them to be able to defeat it, as it will create a sense of apprehension and fear when facing the forces of the Lord of Blades in the future, as well as encourage them to carefully plan and try their best to make these enemies meet them on the player's terms. But then there's the third aspect, which is when you stat it, the players will find a way to kill it or defeat it.

Most of the team has access to magic, especially illusion, enchantment, and other things that would give them a potential edge or means to at least remove it from the equation. Clearly the WF Titan is tough, maybe nearly impossible, to go punch for punch. It should be! You don't run up to punch a literal tank and expect to win. So you use different tactics to take it on.

In fact, I think that is fairly close to what Keith Baker himself had described in a Dragonmarks article regarding how someone would fight a WF Titan.

So @enderxenocide0, even if I told you what level they are, it wouldn't accurately translate what the players could handle. I think it is more accurate and helpful to define what I am using the WF Titan to accomplish, and that is to give the players a nearly impossible task that they will either need to outsmart or run from, as well as set the tone for the level of threat the Lord of Blades forces pose.

Does that make sense?
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby Havard » Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:25 pm

Love this! :)

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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby AvonRekaes » Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:34 pm

While I disagree with your assessment of UA material (I find it mostly balanced or underpar, not much of it would I consider exceedingly overpowered), I understand your point. 5e doesn't assume the players EVER find magic items when it comes to balance and CR targets. Even when taking into account damage resistances overcome by magic weapons, they only assume everyone in the party has magic weapons at level 10+, when most classes have the ability to attack as if they had magic weapons, or easily grant that ability to the party members that don't. The bounded accuracy of 5e doesn't take into account magic bonuses to attack, AC, or saves. This was intentional, so even a +1 magic item would be amazing. So if your party is tricked out with Critical Role amounts of magic gear and loot, the CR system would begin to fall behind, and I understand your lack of trust in it to gauge tough encounters for your table.

I'd still probably calculate a homebrew creature's CR, though, so you'd have it on hand if you ever ran another campaign, and those new PCs were less blessed with math-breaking gear. :P
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby HawkDiesel » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:00 pm

I agree that UA material is generally balanced, which is why I allow most of it and have tweaked much of the rest. The problem is the same that broke 3.5. More options lead to greater opportunities for min-maxing, making characters much more powerful and creating unforeseeable combinations that could "break" the game. The action economy and concentration themselves do wonders to limit characters from reaching the god-like potential they could in 3.5, but still power creep is inevitable (I think) the more modular and the more that is added to a game system like D&D.
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby tetrasodium » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:15 am

it looks like a few others beat me to it, but there are a few things that are badly off about it.
I cane across a conversion for it someone did here, doc
Warforged Titan
Huge Construct, Unaligned

Armour Class - 18 (Natural Armour)
Hit Points - 230 (20D12 + 100)
Speed - 40 ft.


STR - 28 +8
DEX - 14 +2
CON - 21 +5
INT - 5 - 3
WIS - 14 +2
CHA - 8 -1


Damage Resistances - Slashing from non-magical weapons
Damage Immunities - Poison, Psychic
Condition Immunities - frightened, poisoned, fatigued, exhausted, sleep, petrification, suffocation, drowning, blinded, charmed, deafened, paralyzed
Senses - Perception (Passive) +14
Languages - Common
Challenge - 13 (10,000 XP)

Proficiencies - Perception, CON saves








Traits


Looming Presence
A Warforged Titan is a terror to behold to it’s enemies, and a source of courage to it’s allies.
All allied creatures within 60 ft. of the Warforged Titan can add 1d4 to any saving throws made, as long as they can see the Warforged Titan.
Any enemy within 60 feet of the Warforged Titan must succeed on a WIS save (DC 15) or be frightened of the Warforged Titan.

Warforged Resolve (1/day)
Once per day, a Warforged Titan can gain 21 (6d6) hit points as a bonus action.

Unstoppable Charger (Recharge 5-6)
The Warforged Titan can take the Dash action as a bonus action this turn.














Actions

Multiattack
The Warforged Titan can make a hammer, and an axe attack.

Axe
Melee Weapon Attack: +14 to hit, reach 15 ft, up to two targets within 5 ft. of each other (Use the same attack roll for both targets).
Hit: 21 (2d10 + 10) slashing damage.

Hammer
Melee Weapon Attack: +14 to hit, reach 15 ft, one target.
Hit: 19 (2d8 + 10) bludgeoning damage. On a successful hit, the target must also make a STR save (DC 20) or be moved 10 ft. in the direction of the Warforged Titan’s choosing.

Arrow Volley
Ranged Weapon Attack: 120 ft, effects a 20 ft. radius.
Damage: 16 (4d6 + 2) piercing damage. All targets in the area must make a DEX save (DC 14) in order to take half damage.






While I like the siege staff possibility, I like this version better for an interesting encounter that has the appropriate "oh crap" moment whenplayers see one on the fiekd thanks to the dual duty pulled by looming presence
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby HawkDiesel » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:41 am

tetrasodium wrote:it looks like a few others beat me to it, but there are a few things that are badly off about it.


So I love feedback, both positive and negative, and have used it here to adjust from the initial design. But something that bothers me is when someone says "it's bad" without any explanation or feedback to help improve it. I actually know of the versions you posted, and used them as well as the official versions from 3.5 and 4e to inspire my design. I also explained my design philosophy, the purpose the creature is supposed to serve in the game, and that this is a stronger version due to it being in service to the Lord of Blades as well as having a stronger group. I acknowledged that the play style used at my table may not be for everyone, but to suggest that what I put forth is bad is a bit insulting.
Last edited by HawkDiesel on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby ThePurple » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:42 am

This reminds me a lot of the Warforged Blade Titan and Godforged Titan that I've got for my 4e game. I didn't use a seige staff for the Godforged Titan (which isn't the actual Godforged deity, but a Titan that is allied with them); I instead used a shoulder mounted ballista that fires tethered harpoons (basically a heavily modified shoulderbow, which the LoB uses), allowing it to pull fleeing enemies (or annoying ranged ones) within range of its deadly limbs.

I do believe that every Warforged Titan should be a unique entity however. According to Forge of War, only 400 Titans were ever made and only 79 were still in service in 965, when the warforged were created (and a majority of those were owned by Cyre). As such, there are going to be *even fewer* of the hulking behemoths. As such, I can understand that, while there aren't so few that you won't find new ones, I would venture that each Warforged Titan needs to be custom designed because something that expensive and in service for such a long time is going to be *heavily* refitted, to such an extent that, while it might still have the same basic form (Huge with 2 different weapon limbs), they should all be significantly different to such an extent that seeing twin Titans would be rare and beg a question. I would probably even allow players to make History checks to remember the specific mods of a Titan given its name (or to remember its name after seeing its mods), which would be a cool way to link the campaign back to the Last War.
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby HawkDiesel » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:49 am

I like this. I haven't read Forge of War closely, but it is cool to consider the rarity and unique retrofitting/upgrades/repairs that may have gone into keeping them operational. I was actually also thinking that there must be a reason that so few were made, and what made true warforged an improvement despite them being smaller and not as strong. It could be as easy to state that the process or materials were too expensive to justify their creation, but I feel like there is a better reason. Perhaps the Warforged Titans had a large mandatory cooldown period, making them effective in only short bursts that needed to be well planned for maximum execution.
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby HawkDiesel » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:53 am

OH! @ThePurple, you gave me an idea! Warforged Titan twins!!!! That would be a really cool concept to explore at some point or in another campaign. Maybe they are separated and despite their low intelligence, they are searching for each other.
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Re: Warforged Titan 5e

Postby ThePurple » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:05 am

HawkDiesel wrote:It could be as easy to state that the process or materials were too expensive to justify their creation, but I feel like there is a better reason.


Well, there are a couple reasons. First off, they were *extremely expensive*. So expensive that only Cyre could really afford them (Cyre was *obscenely wealthy* since it controlled the national mint and treasurey of unified Khorvaire before the Last War began). Secondly, they were dumb. They didn't have souls and were only marginally more intelligent than golems (though much less likely to go nuts). You can't really *teach* a Warforged Titan; you can give it commands, but it can't really learn new ones. Third, they were highly susceptible to certain tactics, specifically referencing Thrane's use of masses of pike-and-axe troops.

All of this lead to the downfall of the strategic use of a Warforged Titan. They were expensive, lacked the ability to adapt and overcome, and were easily countered once commanders figured out what to do. Warforged Titans are *extremely dangerous* to small groups like adventuring groups but, on the battlefield, they just look expensive and vulnerable to intelligent commanders.
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