[Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

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[Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby jimflory » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:30 pm

I'm certain it has been discussed in fits and starts here, but has anyone done a full setting/campaign project fitting SJ and Eberron together?
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Re: [Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby tetrasodium » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:34 pm

I didn't see anything with a quick search, from my limited knowledge of spelljammer I think the silliness of it would make the two difficult to merge beyond maybe stealing vague inspiration from some specific elements. From looking over on the spelljammer forum it seems like the feeling is mutual. Personally I cringe whenever someone from wotc mentions eberron in the same sentence with another setting as they seem to be doing a lot lately& most recently with magic the freaking gathering in podcast.

I know you aren't from wotc, but it needed to be said given their history. Since you posted in the eberron subforum instead of spelljammer one, I assume you want to pull some elements from spelljammer into eberron, which ones?
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Re: [Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby ThePurple » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:34 pm

tetrasodium wrote:I didn't see anything with a quick search


I vaguely recall a discussion that occurred on this forum at least a year ago in which we discussed plane hopping in Eberron via the Spelljammer rules, insofar as plane hopping is accomplished via space travel (makes a bit of sense in Eberron since the planes and moons are already connected; you just gotta push that a bit harder). Rather than actually discussing how it would work (the general consensus was somewhere between "it doesn't make sense for Eberron" and "I don't know"), I think the discussion mostly got sidetracked on whether airships powered by fire elementals would ignite the extremely flammable interplanar space that exists between the planes in Spelljammer (I think the answer we arrived at was something like "the bound fire elemental *could* but it wouldn't be able to on its own because bound fire elementals don't cause damage to their ships").

If you *were* going to run an Eberron campaign with Spelljammer, you'd probably need to run it with a kind of Star Trek "Prime Directive" ruling, since Eberron is extremely magitek savvy and heavily industrialized so discovery of anything that would allow them to feasibly colonize other planes/planets/etc would pretty quickly be exploited (first, for science, but then very soon after for profit, because that's how the Dragonmarked Houses work). In order for Eberron to not be completely and totally disrupted by all of it, you'd definitely need *some* reason why this one plane is so closed off and isolated from the others if it's possible for Spelljammers to visit it. Perhaps the Dragons of Argonnessen have the entire planet blockaded to prevent interference or are *extremely active* in their efforts to prevent discovery of Spelljamming by the mortal races (e.g. if you get found out, they kill everyone and everything involved to prevent it from being made public), such that they're the source of the "Prime Directive" and every Spelljammer that comes to Eberron is told this before they arrive (or shortly after).
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Re: [Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby AxesnOrcs » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:43 pm

jimflory wrote:I'm certain it has been discussed in fits and starts here, but has anyone done a full setting/campaign project fitting SJ and Eberron together?


I was, but I stopped because I don't really care about ALL of the nitty gritty details of Eberron. I mostly just mine Eberron for ideas.
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Re: [Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby mibagents » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:50 am

I have a 5e Spelljammer game in which I incorporated Eberron and Iron Kingdoms and took some mage-tech from both to re create the concept of helms to be a bit more mage punk. I found some 5e conversions for both Eberron and Iron Kingdoms stuff, like Warforged and Arcane Mechanics, and that way I didn't have to do much conversion. The biggest change I made though is with Eberron, instead of having 12 planes of it's own I made them moons, though with the same significance.
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Re: [Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby tetrasodium » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:55 am

ThePurple wrote:If you *were* going to run an Eberron campaign with Spelljammer, you'd probably need to run it with a kind of Star Trek "Prime Directive" ruling, since Eberron is extremely magitek savvy and heavily industrialized so discovery of anything that would allow them to feasibly colonize other planes/planets/etc would pretty quickly be exploited (first, for science, but then very soon after for profit, because that's how the Dragonmarked Houses work). In order for Eberron to not be completely and totally disrupted by all of it, you'd definitely need *some* reason why this one plane is so closed off and isolated from the others if it's possible for Spelljammers to visit it. Perhaps the Dragons of Argonnessen have the entire planet blockaded to prevent interference or are *extremely active* in their efforts to prevent discovery of Spelljamming by the mortal races (e.g. if you get found out, they kill everyone and everything involved to prevent it from being made public), such that they're the source of the "Prime Directive" and every Spelljammer that comes to Eberron is told this before they arrive (or shortly after).


Agreed completely! that's something that would make a merge difficult to do because spelljammer has the fact that nobody could/would ever consider that type of stuff baked in at a pretty low level to allow it's silliness as a strength to the setting, while having the fact that the dragonmarked houses can be predictable in their motives for taking advantage of situations like that is baked in at a pretty low level that allows some of eberron's strengths to work as a setting.
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Re: [Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby Big Mac » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:57 am

jimflory wrote:I'm certain it has been discussed in fits and starts here, but has anyone done a full setting/campaign project fitting SJ and Eberron together?


Hi Jimflory. Welcome to The Piazza! You might want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic, say "hi" to everyone and tell them the things you like to talk about.

The idea of an Eberron/Spelljammer crossover has been discussed since before The Piazza existed. The term that a lot of fans use for it is "Shardspace" and that's why crossover topics about it get a "[Shardspace]" tag here. You can use the forum search system to search for topics about "Shardspace".

(I'm going to ask a moderator to add a Shardspace topic to your topic, to help future Spelljammer/Eberron crossover fans find this topic too. :) )
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Re: [Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby Big Mac » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:37 pm

tetrasodium wrote:I didn't see anything with a quick search, from my limited knowledge of spelljammer I think the silliness of it would make the two difficult to merge beyond maybe stealing vague inspiration from some specific elements.


Spelljammer doesn't have to be run in a silly way, but it is something that people get concerned about, as there were some fairly funky ideas in the 2e canon for Spelljammer.

Paizo published a toned down 3rd Edition of Spelljammer, called Spelljammer: Shadow of the Spider Moon. If you find the original Spelljammer silly, you might get on better with that.

tetrasodium wrote:From looking over on the spelljammer forum it seems like the feeling is mutual.


I don't think that I've met any Spelljammer fans who think that Eberron is silly. But there are some unique challenges to creating an Eberron crystal sphere.

The Eberron design team have gone out of their way to make Eberron different to other settings, while Spelljammer and the three campaign settings it originally connected to (Greyhawk, Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms) were all designed to tie into the Planescape/Great Wheel Cosmology.

That's not enough to stop you using Eberron with Spelljammer, but it does mean that you need to consider these aspects and how they can work together.

tetrasodium wrote:Personally I cringe whenever someone from wotc mentions eberron in the same sentence with another setting as they seem to be doing a lot lately& most recently with magic the freaking gathering in podcast.


Well, that's how things are going to be with 5e. WotC have decided that commercial products for settings also need to appeal to homebrew fans and fans of other campaign settings. (It's why they have pretty much downplayed the Forgotten Realms brand, with their 5e Realms stuff.)

But that isn't how fans have to do things. In fact, fans don't even need to use 5e. If I was going to work on an Eberron/Spelljammer crossover, I'd be doing it using 3rd Edition rules.

tetrasodium wrote:I know you aren't from wotc, but it needed to be said given their history. Since you posted in the eberron subforum instead of spelljammer one, I assume you want to pull some elements from spelljammer into eberron, which ones?


I don't think you have to worry too much about WotC. If they ever get around to publishing an Eberron product, they will open the setting up to DMs Guild and Keith Baker can then get fans to finance the creation of as many 5e Eberron products as the fans want to support.

I think there are three general directions that Jimflory could take with a crossoveer:
  • Spelljammer with Eberron themes added,
  • Eberron with Spelljammer themes added and
  • A merger (as much as possible) of both Eberron and Spelljammer.

There is no wrong way to do a crossover campaign, but my personal choice would be to build a Shardspace crystal sphere around Eberron.

The crystal spheres are a plot device that Spelljammer uses to separate different worlds and I would personally have all the bespoke rules of Eberron spread out to the crystal sphere wall.

I would only change Eberron rules that "break" Spelljammer, and then I would try to alter them as little as possible and retain the spirit of the original rule.

And I would only change Spelljammer rules that "break" Eberron within the Shardspace crystal sphere.
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Re: [Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby HawkDiesel » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:54 pm

Eberron is full of "alien" invasions, between the age of demons, the invasion of the Quori, and the Daelkyr incursion. It also has a clear cosmology as Eberron strongly hints that each of the planes of existence seem to be linked to the 12 moons. It could be that from the perspective of someone on Eberron, and our experience of moons, they are only as big and far away as our own. But what if they were incredibly far away, but just so massive that they appear as large as our own moon? And rather than tides, Eberron's manifest zones could be more akin to magical wormholes that are linking between Eberron and the moons/planes. Eberron is a setting that I think lends itself well to Spelljammer.
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Re: [Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby ThePurple » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:28 pm

HawkDiesel wrote:Eberron is full of "alien" invasions, between the age of demons, the invasion of the Quori, and the Daelkyr incursion.


Well, the problem with those "alien" invasions is that they aren't really "alien" invasions. The Demons of the Age of Demons are basically manifestations of evil and, as long as mortals are capable of those acts of evil, they'll continue to exist. As such, the Demons of the Age of Demons are intrinsically part of Eberron, which is why those are "native" outsiders in 3.X speak: they are evil outsiders that can't be banished elsewhere because they are literally *from* Eberron (no other campaign setting does this, afaik). The Quori and the Daelkyr are "aliens" in a sense but they're aliens from planes that are fundamentally tied to Eberron. Every single plane in the Eberron setting is "natural" to Eberron: dreams and insanity are just as natural as anything else on Eberron.

If you check out Keith Baker's dragonmarks, he harps on this more than once. In most cosmologies, the Far Realm is fundamentally unnatural and antagonistic towards the natural state of the material plane; it is *explicitly* "other" and isn't *supposed* to have a place in the goings on of things. In Eberron, Xoriat is a natural part of Eberron; it is something that has an intended place within the grand scheme of things; it's only problematic when Xoriat gets *too much* influence. Without Xoriat, there would be no mental disorders (and there would probably be no "crazy" ideas or spontaneous inspiration either, which would be the "good" or useful purpose that the plane serves in proper, extremely low, dosages).

As such, I don't see any of the "alien" invasions as "alien invasions"; they're the natural order being disrupted from within. They're "alien" in the sense that they're not from Eberron explicitly, but they're "native" in the sense that their influence is something you're supposed to *expect* a certain amount of.
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Re: [Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby AvonRekaes » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:59 pm

Eberron's unique cosmology has always been an issue with incorporating it into any of the "multiverse" shared D&D settings like Planescape or Spelljammer. Any conversion would have to account for them.

One way to account for Eberron's planes is by stripping away anything that's unique about them. For example, a resident of Sigil might claim that anyone native to Eberron is just exceptionally Clueless, on par with those from Krynn, and everything the advanced magical knowledge of Eberron's artificers and wizards and dragons knows about the planes is just wrong. "They think the Elemental Plane of Fire has a name! And that it's all evil! And that it's an Outer Plane! What a bunch of clueless berks! Aahahahaha!"

As you might guess, I'm not a fan of this, because it implies negative things about the knowledge base of Eberron, which seems to be higher than most settings on average.

Another way to account for the difference in cosmologies is to really run wild with it. The Progenitor Wyrms perhaps existed in the Great Wheel Cosmology/Spelljammer universe along with the rest of the draconic pantheon. But they deliberately went into the far reaches of the Astral/Ethereal/Phlogiston and began working together to create their own separate material plane/crystal sphere. The Progenitors formed not just one plane, but many, anchoring them in a grand orrery of existence. Then this separate creation was lost to the rest of the multiverse, perhaps by catastrophe (Khyber's slaying of Siberys) or purposeful design (Eberron containing Khyber away from anything else it could destroy).

Or, maybe it was stolen? Perhaps the entire Eberron campaign setting is contained in a literal mechanical orrery, each sphere in actuality a tiny demiplane, wizzing about in complex patterns in a huge magic device, and this device is the prize of Tiamat's horde, located on the first layer of the Nine Hells in the Great Wheel. (Imagine Tiamat's surprise when she returns one day to look at it and finds the arm for the sphere of Dal Quor refusing to move, and can't find any evidence of anyone having infiltrated her horde to break it.)

Also; Hi Jim! I recognize you from the Sages of Eberron facebook group. I'm Anthony :)
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Re: [Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby jimflory » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:19 pm

Hey Anthony (and everyone else)!
Great info and ideas here.
I greatly appreciate the insight and suggestions.
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Re: [Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby Big Mac » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:36 pm

AxesnOrcs wrote:
jimflory wrote:I'm certain it has been discussed in fits and starts here, but has anyone done a full setting/campaign project fitting SJ and Eberron together?


I was, but I stopped because I don't really care about ALL of the nitty gritty details of Eberron. I mostly just mine Eberron for ideas.


That's a valid way to go.

Some people want to spend ages checking the canon of two campaign settings and getting it to all dovetail together...

...other people just want to get on with their games. :twisted:

I suppose a quick and dirty Shardspace hack would also be good for a one-shot campaign, where a GM and players want to see if they like the feel of the crossover.
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Re: [Shardspace] Spelljammer, Eberron Style

Postby Big Mac » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:55 am

mibagents wrote:I have a 5e Spelljammer game in which I incorporated Eberron and Iron Kingdoms and took some mage-tech from both to re create the concept of helms to be a bit more mage punk. I found some 5e conversions for both Eberron and Iron Kingdoms stuff, like Warforged and Arcane Mechanics, and that way I didn't have to do much conversion. The biggest change I made though is with Eberron, instead of having 12 planes of it's own I made them moons, though with the same significance.


Hi Mibagents! Welcome to The Piazza! You might want to pop over to the Introduce yourself here topic, say "Hi" to everyone and let them know what you like to talk about. (I think we have a few other people here who are interested Iron Kingdoms, but it's not been enough for a bespoke forum for it...yet.)

Eberron already has 12 moons (well 13 actually, sort of, as the moons follow the "Baker's dozen" logic). I have seen a few people suggest turning Eberron's planes into planets (rather than more moons).

I've thought about doing that myself, in the past, but I think I'd be more tempted to create 13 planets (one of which might be "missing" somehow) that somehow tie into the various planes.

But, before that, I'd probably want to focus on individual moons of Eberron (as they are canon) and learn as much about them as possible. The twelve moons are:
  • Zarantyr, the Storm Moon
  • Olarune, The Sentinel
  • Therendor, The Healer's Moon
  • Eyre, the Anvil
  • Dravago, the Herder's Moon
  • Nymm, the Crown or King Nymm
  • Lharvion, the Eye
  • Barrakas, the Lantern
  • Rhaan, the Book
  • Sypheros, the Shadow
  • Aryth, the Gateway
  • Vult, the Warding Moon

And here is a topic about Crya: Eberron's 13th Moon.

I created a topic about working on Zarantyr, the Storm Moon, back in 2008, but didn't get any replies back then. Anyone who is interested in Shardspace is welcome to bump the topic with new ideas. :)

You may want to use the Eberron World and Planar Calendar Utility (and I suggest you download it, in case it gets taken down) as that plots the positions of both the moons and the planes. :)
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