PHB Subraces and their cultural implications on Eberron

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HawkDiesel
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Re: PHB Subraces and their cultural implications on Eberron

Post by HawkDiesel » Fri May 25, 2018 6:08 am

Another thing that may impact the way I run my games compared to others here is in the players we have. Typically the games I have run have either been people new to the game with no knowledge of D&D, let alone Eberron, or people that are more casual gamers that don't have the inclination to read and incorporate the Eberron lore. If I had a table of dedicated players with a similar interest in Eberron as I have, I imagine it would change a great deal of how I run games.

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AvonRekaes
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Re: PHB Subraces and their cultural implications on Eberron

Post by AvonRekaes » Fri May 25, 2018 6:34 am

HawkDiesel wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 5:57 am
As for the issue with guns in Eberron specifically, I agree that in general they don't belong. But if I have a player that is set on flavoring their shortbow or wands as a gun, or if I have a player that wants to use some kind of steampunk, my natural inclination is not to say "no," but rather "Yes, and..." or "Yes, but..."
"Yes, but..." is my approach to guns in Eberron. I actually had a player that wanted to play using the Gunslinger fighter archetype by Mathew Mercer (as seen on critical role). I told him what the state of Eberron was, how I run the game as non-technological, and that firearms would be unique to him, and his guns would be the first guns in existence, and that may cause him problems. He was fine with that, so he got to play it.

(His first problem was that he invented guns as a deterrent against war magic, a defense, but very soon into his Cannith patronage he suspected that his patron wanted to steal his designs and mass market them as weapons. And then his workshop was broken into and his prototype sniper rifle was stolen, though he had the Mk 2 on his person, and now he's fearing his invention may have been a mistake.)
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tetrasodium
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Re: PHB Subraces and their cultural implications on Eberron

Post by tetrasodium » Fri May 25, 2018 5:14 pm

I think to some degree that both of you might be missing each others points on some levels & I can see valid reasons for missing them because I've done both in the past as well.
@HawkDiesel: Not having rules that players can use to create trinkets/clockworks/whatever is super problematic to a gm who wants to run a game (or player play in a game) where that kind of thing can be done because there is no baseline assumptions that can be made when starting/carrying on the discussion around making or supplying such things. It took me eight months of letting my players find & sometimes buy poffered trinkets with modified spells attached to them based largely on Keith Baker's magewrights article & other similar ones. When they finally took the initiative & tried to, they wanted a devils sight potion... That was like 6 months ago & despitemultiple npc's offering to special order something with an artificer they know/put them in touch/etc they have not. Even when they are given things like a dragonshard/planar shard that they know can be used to make a magic item, they still try to go exactly by the stuff in the dmg magic items chapter & almost never suggest any tweak beyond stuff like "can you make it from byeshek/flametouched iron".

@AvonReKaes: I can see a common thread in much of what Hawkduesel has been saying, you do give off the impression that you would rather say X(ie hill/mountain dwarf subraces) is not allowed in my eberron even when those things can be stripped of faerun's fluff & have the mechanical aspects trivially fluffed to fit eberron. That's not to say that this is an unreasonable thing to do, just that you seem to be quick with doing it. Many of the systems various bits of lore were built around in 3.5 eberron (I dunno wtf 4e was) have been changed so dramatically that a significant number of
things need anything from minor changes to trivial refluffing.

That's not to say that it is all a pain in the ass! Some of those things like archtypes rather than prc's & subraces allow for eberron specific stuff (ie horrid beasts, eberron's orcs, The Dar, etc) to be implemented in ways that were not previously possible and far more interesting and a much better fit for the original lore itself. I'm not sure that I'm ready to include warforged in that list yet, but through warforged subtypes they could do much better than the original bpdy feats. I'm not sure I'm ready to say that because I'm not sure WotC is ready to stop trying to ship faerun everywhere. Xge & mtof are great, but eberron is deliberately not quite compatible with faerun & having to refluff a setting to make it notFaerun would not give us that setting.


As to the topic of guns,they are a terrible fit for eberron for the same reason you don't see magic in star trek. In a game like fallout, you might see a radiation generated mutation that looks like magic & the mutant in question might even call it magic, but it's going to be so oddly out of place thatthe silliness gets played up dramatically. There are many many reasons that guns do not belong in eberron, many of those reasons boil down to conflicting with the setting's baseline assumptions.

Wands are a well understood technology in eberron, there is significant infrastructure in place to build them, everyone at least kinda knows how to store/transport them & definately knows how not to; None of that is true about guns. Not only is there all of those reasons, there is the fact that wands are versatile devices with many possible effects that can be generated by them while guns do one thing & one thing only. Wands are a well developperd advanced technology, an eary black powder musket is soinferior in every way that it would be little more than a curiosity that comes with an extremely volatile & absurdly unstable substance that must be supplied/stored/etc in significant quantities. Sure, house Cannith or some eccentric & well off noble/merchant/etc might have a prototype someone made sitting on a shelf next to a bunch of other impractical curiosities.... but nobody is going to start mass producing them because they can. Yes you might be able to teach a guy to load, point, & fire a musket in an afternoon, but you could teach that guy to point & fire a specific wand in just as much time. Both of them would need to be made, but only one of them is probably available for purchase & the other one is likely to explode is mishandled (which is great because battle is the epitome of places for calm well thought out peaceful deliberation). You are more likely to see someone make a crossbow with a cantrip like firebolt/ray of frost/whatever bound to it using dex as the relevant stat than you are a gun... that cantrip bound crossbow is going to have the advantage of being something the wielder already knows how to do & capable of having different useful effects bound to it on to of not being likely to explode.

Put in perspective, I actually had a player ask if he could play that stupid gunslinger "artificer" option, I allowed it with the caveat that he was using wands. Given that some of my players already had cantrip bound crossbows in that & other games of mine, the characters themselves pointed out the very strange anachronism. Had he been using gunpowder as it describes, it would have been the subject of even more mockery because the gunslinger "artificer" is built for the baselines of Lantan in forgotten realms rather than even trying to make an artificer that is capable of fitting into eberron without mockery or massive disruption & imbalances.



Edit: I applaud them for putting in the mtof gnomish clockwork constructs howver, all of them are reasonable for use as cannith made constructs & of challenge worthy of being made by cannith

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