[Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

A land of breathtaking beauty, where eight clans of powerful samurai warriors struggle against one another in constant war for supremacy. Discuss the Legend of the Five Rings campaign setting, as it relates to pen & paper RPGs, here.
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[Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by Big Mac »

Does anyone have the Legend of the Five Rings CCG?

Is there anything in it that might be interesting to incorporate into a Rokugan-based tabletop game?

(Could - for example - you use certain cards to turn into NPCs, magic items or other stuff?)

MODERATOR NOTE (by Big Mac) This topic is about finding information in the Collectable Card Game from AEG. If you want to discuss finding information in the Living Card Game from FFG, please see Angel's L5R Card Game: What can be taken for use in the RPG? topic.
Last edited by Big Mac on Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by Big Mac »

I just found an online card search tool, called Oracle of the Void that looks like it holds information on some (or maybe all) of the AEG CCG cards.

Interestingly, if you search for nothing, it seems to pull up all the cards.

There are also factions there that are not in the Oriental Adventures book. I've not checked to see if they are the dead factions or something else yet, but a test search for Naga got me a list of 70 cards, which might be something that could be converted to up to 70 NPCs!

I have no idea how any of the card stats would translate, so I'm guessing it would mostly be a case of using names.
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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by Havard »

I don't know much about the L5E CCG, but this story related by Matt Colville made it sound awesome if you also incorporated storytelling into a CCG tournament!

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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by Big Mac »

I found out some detail from the Boardgame Geek article for Legend of the Five Rings:
Legend of the Five Rings article on Boardgame Geek wrote:Description

A collectible card game, set in a fantasy empire called Rokugan, based loosely upon medieval Japan and Japanese Mythology.

The factions available have changed over the editions, but generally include the 7 Great Clans: Crab, Crane, Dragon, Lion, Phoenix, Scorpion, and Unicorn. Each has specific thematic elements, which are consistent across editions and descendant games. The other currently legal factions include the Spider, Mantis, and an unaligned ronin stronghold.

The Rokugan setting has been changed over the years by participation in the storyline tournaments for the L5R CCG.

Legend of the Five Rings is different from other collectible card games due to the concept of Clan loyalty. The Clans of the game are what you build your deck around, and the communities that have built up around the Crane Clan, Lion Clan, etc are the backbone of the game. When you say "I'm a Crab player" you instantly find yourself with hundreds and thousands of clan-mates who are there to help you become a better player. When one member of the Clan wins, all benefit.

L5R was the first CCG to introduce cards that players directly influenced. These are still a core part of the game.

The L5R CCG has spun off a number of related games:
  • Clan War, a miniatures game.
  • Diskwars: Legend of the Five Rings, a Rokugan-themed set of the Diskwars tabletop combat game.
  • Unpublished Prototype, an as-yet unpublished wargame set in Rokugan.
  • Legend of the Five Rings Roleplaying Game
As of 2006, only the CCG and Clan War have had storyline tournaments. Though the RPG players have been heavily involved in the ongoing plot in recent years.

In 2008, L5R held the first "Mega-Game" which incorporated various methods of competition for the Clans and their supporters, not only in CCG form, but in contests (art, writing, poster-design, etc.), community work (charity, fundraising, food-drives), and more. The Dragon Clan ultimately won the first mega-game, and as such earned the privilege of having the next Empress come from their clan.

In 2009, L5R released its first graphic novel, Death at Koten, which also included exclusive story-themed cards for the CCG.

Also in 2009, L5R released The Imperial Gift the first completely free expansion in CCG history.

In 2010 L5R celebrated its 15th Anniversary with many major events, new prizes, more free cards, and a special flashback set that brought back some of the most popular cards in the history of the game. 2010 also saw the largest World Championships event at Gen Con in the past 7 years.

2011 saw the release of War of Honor, an all new tile-based multiplayer format for L5R that comes with 4 pre-constructed decks.

In september 2015, AEG and Fantasy Flight Games announced that FFG had bought the L5R brand from AEG and will relaunch the card game as a LCG (non-collectible), with significant rules changes and a new design. The game is to go on hiatus following the release of Evil Portents, the final expansion from AEG, and will be relaunched at Gencon 2017. FFG has also plans to continue the RPG at some point (in what form and with which ruleset is yet unknown).
This sentence is interesting: "The factions available have changed over the editions, but generally include the 7 Great Clans: Crab, Crane, Dragon, Lion, Phoenix, Scorpion, and Unicorn."

That makes me wonder if there is any documentation that records the factions that are legal for each edition of the CCG...and if that could be used to infer some sort of continuing storyline where non-core factions are rising and falling in power.

I'll have to dig around to see if there is a way to get lists of cards for each edition.
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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by Big Mac »

1970 said something useful in Angel's topic about the FFG card game, which I'm going to copy here:
1970 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:52 pm
The First Edition Gamemaster's Survival Guide gave loose rules for converting personalities to RPG stats. It also went into how to interpret boosters from the CCG into plots and how to interpret different cards so you could make story desk on your own. The only other use I could see for the cards is for visual reference.
So would that be the 1e Lot5R RPG, from AEG (before the company making/selling the RPG stuff got sold to WotC)?

I'm mostly interested in using Rokugan with 3rd Edition rules (so via the 3e Oriental Adventures products - not Lot5R products). How much of the loose rules was about learning how to take information from the CCG cards? And how much of the loose rules were tied specically into generating Lot5R RPG stats?

Are there any Lot5R-to-3e D&D conversion guidelines that I could use along with Gamemaster's Survival Guide?
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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by 1970 »

Big Mac wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:31 pm
1970 said something useful in Angel's topic about the FFG card game, which I'm going to copy here:
1970 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:52 pm
The First Edition Gamemaster's Survival Guide gave loose rules for converting personalities to RPG stats. It also went into how to interpret boosters from the CCG into plots and how to interpret different cards so you could make story desk on your own. The only other use I could see for the cards is for visual reference.
So would that be the 1e Lot5R RPG, from AEG (before the company making/selling the RPG stuff got sold to WotC)?

I'm mostly interested in using Rokugan with 3rd Edition rules (so via the 3e Oriental Adventures products - not Lot5R products). How much of the loose rules was about learning how to take information from the CCG cards? And how much of the loose rules were tied specically into generating Lot5R RPG stats?

Are there any Lot5R-to-3e D&D conversion guidelines that I could use along with Gamemaster's Survival Guide?
Yes that would be the First Edition of the RPG from AEG, written by John Wick.

Some of the information would be useful for a Rokugan Oriental Adventures game, specifically the creation of story decks for semi-random adventure creation and using unopened booster packs to do something similar. Of course, both are long out of print, so its usefulness is suspect unless you could print off cards and use those. If you're looking for adventure ideas, the fan-made Challenge, Focus, Strike archive would probably suit your needs better, assuming you haven't found them already.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2j2a3 ... 9SNW8/view

As to whether or not there is an AEG house system rules to WotC d20 rules, I haven't found any and am not sure they exist. I don't know if you could extrapolate them by comparing the dual stats in the Rokugan books, but I'm thinking that it's probably not worth the effort. Sorry.
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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by 1970 »

Big Mac wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:24 pm
I found out some detail from the Boardgame Geek article for Legend of the Five Rings:
Legend of the Five Rings article on Boardgame Geek wrote:Description

A collectible card game, set in a fantasy empire called Rokugan, based loosely upon medieval Japan and Japanese Mythology.

The factions available have changed over the editions, but generally include the 7 Great Clans: Crab, Crane, Dragon, Lion, Phoenix, Scorpion, and Unicorn. Each has specific thematic elements, which are consistent across editions and descendant games. The other currently legal factions include the Spider, Mantis, and an unaligned ronin stronghold.

The Rokugan setting has been changed over the years by participation in the storyline tournaments for the L5R CCG.

Legend of the Five Rings is different from other collectible card games due to the concept of Clan loyalty. The Clans of the game are what you build your deck around, and the communities that have built up around the Crane Clan, Lion Clan, etc are the backbone of the game. When you say "I'm a Crab player" you instantly find yourself with hundreds and thousands of clan-mates who are there to help you become a better player. When one member of the Clan wins, all benefit.

L5R was the first CCG to introduce cards that players directly influenced. These are still a core part of the game.

The L5R CCG has spun off a number of related games:
  • Clan War, a miniatures game.
  • Diskwars: Legend of the Five Rings, a Rokugan-themed set of the Diskwars tabletop combat game.
  • Unpublished Prototype, an as-yet unpublished wargame set in Rokugan.
  • Legend of the Five Rings Roleplaying Game
As of 2006, only the CCG and Clan War have had storyline tournaments. Though the RPG players have been heavily involved in the ongoing plot in recent years.

In 2008, L5R held the first "Mega-Game" which incorporated various methods of competition for the Clans and their supporters, not only in CCG form, but in contests (art, writing, poster-design, etc.), community work (charity, fundraising, food-drives), and more. The Dragon Clan ultimately won the first mega-game, and as such earned the privilege of having the next Empress come from their clan.

In 2009, L5R released its first graphic novel, Death at Koten, which also included exclusive story-themed cards for the CCG.

Also in 2009, L5R released The Imperial Gift the first completely free expansion in CCG history.

In 2010 L5R celebrated its 15th Anniversary with many major events, new prizes, more free cards, and a special flashback set that brought back some of the most popular cards in the history of the game. 2010 also saw the largest World Championships event at Gen Con in the past 7 years.

2011 saw the release of War of Honor, an all new tile-based multiplayer format for L5R that comes with 4 pre-constructed decks.

In september 2015, AEG and Fantasy Flight Games announced that FFG had bought the L5R brand from AEG and will relaunch the card game as a LCG (non-collectible), with significant rules changes and a new design. The game is to go on hiatus following the release of Evil Portents, the final expansion from AEG, and will be relaunched at Gencon 2017. FFG has also plans to continue the RPG at some point (in what form and with which ruleset is yet unknown).
This sentence is interesting: "The factions available have changed over the editions, but generally include the 7 Great Clans: Crab, Crane, Dragon, Lion, Phoenix, Scorpion, and Unicorn."

That makes me wonder if there is any documentation that records the factions that are legal for each edition of the CCG...and if that could be used to infer some sort of continuing storyline where non-core factions are rising and falling in power.

I'll have to dig around to see if there is a way to get lists of cards for each edition.
Here's what Wikipedia says about the various factions and their release editions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of ... n_factions

Yes, some Clans rose and fell during the course of the CCGs lifespan. For example, after the Jade Extended card legality ended right before Gold Edition, the Naga went back to sleep en mass, the Brotherhood of Shinsei stepped back from actively participating in Rokugani interests, the Ninja (Lying Darkness) and Spirit Armies,and Shadowlands were defeated,and Toturi's Army was disbanded after the Daigotsu orchestrated Toturi the First's assassination, leading to the Four Winds Saga, meaning there was no replaceable Imperial Faction.

About Toturi's Army. There was an in game mechanic called the Imperial Favor, which players generally bowed (tapped) personalities for, which gave that player certain abilities in play for discarding it. Once Gold Edition started, each ability was given to one of the Four Winds, Akodo Keneka, Toturi Tsudao, Toruri Sezaru, and Hantei Naseru, limiting the Imperial Favor's abilities to the one you were supporting.

Anyway, I hope this helps some.
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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by The Dark »

1970 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:56 am
As to whether or not there is an AEG house system rules to WotC d20 rules, I haven't found any and am not sure they exist. I don't know if you could extrapolate them by comparing the dual stats in the Rokugan books, but I'm thinking that it's probably not worth the effort. Sorry.
Appendix 3 of Rokugan (AEG 3103) has conversion rules from L5R to D20 and vice versa.

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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by 1970 »

The Dark wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:40 am
1970 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:56 am
As to whether or not there is an AEG house system rules to WotC d20 rules, I haven't found any and am not sure they exist. I don't know if you could extrapolate them by comparing the dual stats in the Rokugan books, but I'm thinking that it's probably not worth the effort. Sorry.
Appendix 3 of Rokugan (AEG 3103) has conversion rules from L5R to D20 and vice versa.
Who knew (besides you that is :) )?

The next time I'm near my books I'll take a look at it and see what I can do with it and the information from the Game Master's Survival Guide.
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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by 1970 »

Big Mac wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:31 pm
I'm mostly interested in using Rokugan with 3rd Edition rules (so via the 3e Oriental Adventures products - not Lot5R products). How much of the loose rules was about learning how to take information from the CCG cards? And how much of the loose rules were tied specically into generating Lot5R RPG stats?
Here's what I've got for converting L5R CCG cards to L5R characters (AEG Roll & Keep system). You'll have to convert them to d20 Rokugan stats using some other method.

When determining the Earth Ring, take the card's Force score (upper left side, above the character's portrait) and add one or two to the character's Stamina or Willpower, but not both.

When determining the Water Ring, use the card's Chi (upper right side, above the portrait). A card with a Chi higher than it's Force, raise Perception by one. If its Force is higher, raise the character's Strength by one or two.

The character's Fire Ring should be one, two, or three points lover than their Force, with their Agility nearly equal if it's a Samurai. For non-Samurai characters, like Shugenja, Courtiers and the like, use the Chi of the card to determine their Fire Ring, then add one or two more points to Intelligence.

The Air Ring isn't given a hard and fast rule at all, so it's determined by a case by case basis. Personally, I'd set Air equal to Chi and Force, with Awareness Equal to Chi, or a point higher or lower, and Agility nearly equal to Force.

The Void Ring is equal to the card's Chi. If the card has the Double Chi or Duelist Trait, raise their Void +2.

Honor is determined by the card's Honor Rank, found on the lower right side, under the portrait. add 0 - 9 boxes as you see fit.

I don't know if Glory is a stat in Rokugan, so I'll leave it be for now. If it is, let me know and I'll try to post it.

School Rank is determined by card rarity. Common cards have a Rank of 1 or 2, Uncommon Cards 2 - 3, and Rares 4 - 5.

Skills are determined by School. I remember that Rokugan doesn't have Schools, just character classes, so this may be a waste of time.

Advantages and Disadvantages also don't have a great analogue in Rokugan. I'm probably not qualified to make any suggestions on my own.

Anyway, that's pretty much it. It's not perfect of course. It doesn't take into account some CCG Personalities have Forces of zero or one, or Chis of One. It may help that any character in the L5R RPG has a base stat of 2 in all their Rings, which transfers to their traits. So Earth is Stamina and Willpower, Water is Strength and Perception, Fire is Agility and Intelligence, Air is Awareness and Reflexes, and Void is Void.

For those of you who have no idea of what I'm talking about, here's my take. Stamina is Constitution, Willpower is Wisdom, Strength is Strength, Perception is Wisdom, Agility is Dexterity, Intelligence is Intelligence, Awareness is Charisma, Reflexes is Dexterity, and Void really doesn't have any real analogue that I can think of, though there may be a Feat or Skill or something. I don't know.

Anyway, I hope this helps. If you're confused or need to know more, let me know and I'll try to help.
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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by The Dark »

School might still be useful because that provides access to clan feats in D20. 99% of the time it won't really matter, but a Lion with Different School who learned from the Crane would have Crane feats instead of Lion feats. Also, there are dojos detailed in the Way and Secrets books that knowing the L5R school might give guidance towards a particular dojo. School Rank could be useful for suggesting how many dojo-specific Feats should be taken (which is the equivalent to School abilities from L5R).

As best as I can tell, Glory has no equivalent in Rokugan. Is there anything on determining Insight? That's what is used to determine D20 levels.

According to Rokugan:
All D20 characters being converted from L5R should take Void Use at 1st level, and characters with 3 or more Void should take Depths of the Void (both are feats).

Trait conversions:
L5R 1 = D20 1d6+2
L5R 2 = D20 1d6+7
L5R 3 = D20 1d4+12
L5R 4 = D20 1d4+15
L5R 5 = D20 1d2+19
L5R 6 = D20 21
Additional points are added on a one-to-one basis.
For Wisdom and Dexterity, use the lower of the two traits, then add a point for each point that the higher trait exceeds the lower (i.e. if a character has Agility 2 and Reflexes 4, roll 1d6+7 for the Agility and add +2 for Reflexes).

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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by 1970 »

The Dark wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:48 pm
Is there anything on determining Insight? That's what is used to determine D20 levels.
Insight would be determined by card rarity. Common cards would be Insight 1 or 2. Uncommon cards would be Insight 2 or 3. Rare cards would be Insight 4 or 5. You can search for Personality rarity on the Oracle of the Void page that Big Mac linked to up thread.
The Dark wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:48 pm
School might still be useful because that provides access to clan feats in D20. 99% of the time it won't really matter, but a Lion with Different School who learned from the Crane would have Crane feats instead of Lion feats. Also, there are dojos detailed in the Way and Secrets books that knowing the L5R school might give guidance towards a particular dojo. School Rank could be useful for suggesting how many dojo-specific Feats should be taken (which is the equivalent to School abilities from L5R).
If I had to choose a School for a particular Personality, I'd do something simple like give each character a Bushi, Shugenja, or Courtier School based on their Family. Matsu's are Matsu Bushi and so on. I'd consider messing with this if the Personality Traits indicate something different, like having the the Double Chi/Duelist Trait might suggest that they studied at a Crane School. The Tactition Trait might be a Lion School. Anything sneaky might be a Scorpion and so on. Most likely this is not the case, but if it comes up, go with your gut or with the most interesting character option, especially if it's a PC.
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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by The Dark »

1970 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:13 am
The Dark wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:48 pm
Is there anything on determining Insight? That's what is used to determine D20 levels.
Insight would be determined by card rarity. Common cards would be Insight 1 or 2. Uncommon cards would be Insight 2 or 3. Rare cards would be Insight 4 or 5. You can search for Personality rarity on the Oracle of the Void page that Big Mac linked to up thread.
OK, so it's the Insight Rank without any reference to points. That'll make it somewhat broad strokes when using Rokugan's conversion system, but it means Common cards are level 1-6, Uncommon are level 4-9, and Rare are level 10-15. Points-wise, level 1 is up to 120 Insight, level 2 is 121-135, and level 3 is 136-150, to help explain why I mentioned Rank vs. points.

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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by 1970 »

Okay, I didn't know you wanted actual Insight Points. Here goes.

Rank 1 is from 0 - 150
Rank 2 is from 151 - 170
Rank 3 is from 176 - 200
Rank 4 is from 201 - 225
Rank 5 is from 226 - 250

For simplicity's sake, I'd assume that a Personality has enough points to achieve their Rank. Since Insight is related to Skills (it's total is Skills + [Rings x10]), determining some skill ranks might be helpful.

Rank 1 is a beginner
Rank 2 - 3 is competent
Rank 4 is skilled
Rank 5 - 6 is an expert
Rank 7 - 8 is famed
Rank 9 - 10 is legendary

I'll get around to posting Ability benchmarks later.
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Re: [Rokugan] Anything useful in the L5R CCG?

Post by 1970 »

Sorry for the wait; I had switched to Third Edition, which doesn't have listed benchmarks. Now that I've gone back to First, here are the ABility Benchmarks:

1. Earth
Stamina:
1: Weak immune system, prone to chronic illness and disease
2: Average health, might catch a cold every so often
3: Walk on a sprained ankle without wincing, run long distances before becoming winded
4: Robust and mighty, able to perform incredible feats of endurance
5: Can swim great distances with ease, recover from illnesses without medical attention, ignore serious wounds*
Willpower:
1: Timid, unassertive, weak-willed, and easily intimidated
2: Average, easy to convince of goals are the same
3: Not a strong will, but still not easily dissuaded from action
4: Almost unshakable resolve
5: Iron-willed, steadfast and resolute

* As far as I know, this is flavor text. Wounds are determined by the Earth Ring, which is the lesser of Endurance and Willpower. If you have an Endurance of 5 and a Willpower of 1 you're still on the lowest rung of wound points.

2. Water:

Strength:
1: Weak and physically unimposing
2: Average, able to lift about 100lbs.
3: Strong enough to lift about 200lbs.
4: Your strength is well known throughout your family, being able to life about 300lbs.
5: Your strength is legendary throughout the Empire, being able to lift about 400lbs.
Perception:
1: You miss even important and obvious details
2: You pick up on things when you're paying attention
3: You've learned how to look for important details
4: You can take one look, close your eyes, and list the details of a room
5: No matter how small or insignificant no detail gets by you

3. Fire:
Agility:
1: Clumsy and stumbling
2: Average coordination, requires concentration for difficult actions
3: Even your average actions are graceful
4: You have almost a second sense for motion
5: Even your most minute motion is like a dance
Intelligence:
1: Easily confused and slow thinking
2: Average thinker, can follow difficult conversations with concentration
3: Can figure out puzzles and decipher codes with a little work
4: Intellect of a scholar, not easily deceived by even the most clever lies
5: A genuine genius, clear thinking and brilliant

Air:
Reflexes:
1: You take a moment or two to make up your mind to jump out of the way of large obstacles
2: Average reflexes, not well refined
3: Able to react before just about anyone else
4: Cat-like in your ability to sense danger
5: You're out of the room before anyone knows you're gone
Awareness:
1: You almost always find a way to say the wrong thing
2: You're able to get along with people who get along with you
3: You can usually sense deeper emotions than those that are shown on the surface
4: You pick up on hints even from those who are skilled in hiding them
5: You know everyone's secrets... sooner or later

The Void Ring doesn't have benchmarks, but represents your connection to the universe, so to speak. When you spend Void Points you can accomplish amazing things, like ignore damage, make near impossible skill rolls, have incredible luck, etc. It's all a matter of how much you have and want to spend.

All Rings start at 2 (average). Family and School raise an attribute one point (Kakaita Duelist gains a +1 to Agility [Family bonus] and +1 to Reflexes [School bonus]).
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