[HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

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[HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:25 am

This would probably require more worldbuilding than I have the patience for, but it's interesting to consider a campaign that took seriously the premise that Earth’s fantastic legends derive from ancient connections to the Forgotten Realms and allowed the player characters to move freely between the two worlds.

So, something like AD&D Historical Reference Earth with the following modifications:

1. Elves, dwarves, goblins, fantastical monsters and so on are natives of Toril, and found on Earth only if they or their ancestors wandered through a portal. So, for example, Grendel might have been born on Earth, but his mother was from Toril.

2. Magic is possible on Earth, but most spellcasting traditions derive from contact with natives of Toril.

3. All tales of Faerie and other fantastic magical locations (though not Heaven and Hell, Asgard, Olympus, etc., which are the same Outer Planes familiar to D&D lore) actually refer to portals to the Forgotten Realms. So, for example, the magical lake where Sir Lancelot was raised was a portal to Toril. Nimue was a queen of a nation in Faerun. The Forgotten Realms can still have a Faerie/Feywild of its own...

4. Many of the human cultures in Faerun are descended from human migrants from Earth, some of whom brought their religions with them.

5. Earth has its own gods and pantheons, some of which spread to Toril with human migrations. Toril has native gods of its own, though.

Known portals:

From the 1st edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Set: "The world of the Forgotten Realms, Abeir-Toril, has a huge number of portals and other gate- type devices which link that world with other areas of the Realms, with the Outer Planes, and with alternative material planes containing other AD&D campaigns...

"Characters making the transfer, by whatever means, to the Realms gain the ability to speak the Common tongue of the Realms, as well as the Realms equivalents of Elvish, Dwarvish, and other languages...

"Similarly, magical items that are "special" to a particular world may not make the transfer to the Realms, either being destroyed, being returned to their original plane, or being stripped of the player and placed somewhere in the Realms...

"The physics of the Realms are slightly out of sync with the rest of the planes, so that gunpowder and many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function...."

Time Gates: From Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves: "There are time gates on Faerun, but their locations remain a mystery. Ancient texts of Mystryl's faith talk of three gates that were created either through accidents or great fortune. Unknown to any other races on Toril, there is one other time gate, and that is known only to the High Mages of the elves. The time gates are older constructs than anything else in the Realms, either Arcane Age or modern time periods. They predate the first dwarven realm on Faerun, and even the elves seem in awe of their age and power."

The time gates should be usable to travel to either Earth or Toril, and those flung to a random time and place might end up on either world.

Weathercote Wood
Netherese portals:
Imaskari portals: in Egypt, Mesopotamia

Panchengjuduohuh, the Sunken City of Many Doors, from OA5 Mad Monkey vs. Dragon Claw: "While it looks ruined, the City of Endless Doors is really a mazework with doors leading into various areas of the Eastern Realms, the Forgotten Realms, alternate material planes, and upper and lower planes."

The Cave of the Monkey, from The Horde boxed set: "The cave is more extensive than just these apartments, however. Elsewhere are gates to other Prime Material planes, other worlds on this Prime Material plane, and other planar locations... Always the trickster, Monkey has made his gates special. Those that open on the Prime Material plane can be crossed easily from the outside. To leave, however, requires a special code phrase. People who come in often find it very difficult to leave..."

Cloak Wood: "The sages of Candlekeep have sufficient evidence to indicate at least one gate exits in the wood, but the exact numbers and/or destination of these gates is unknown. They may lead to other parts of the Realms, to an Alternate Material Plane where such creatures are common, or to the Beastlands (Happy Hunting Grounds)."

Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves details the Elven High Magic rituals needed to create portals.
Ghaatiil/The Traveling Path: After two High Mages individually perform a vuorl'kyshuf ritual to allow communication across great distances, a third caster maintains this link during the ritual. All three unite in this Complement ritual to link the two sites with a gate, setting its operating conditions during the ritual. Visually, each High Mage is surrounded by a light mist; as each performs the rite, he is joined by a ghostly apparition of the counterpart High Mage at the other site. The ritual ends when each High Mage uses the gate to join the other to close out the ceremony at first one and then the other gate site.

This establishes a permanent gate at the sites of the ritual. Historically, High Mages created these at the behest of their Coronals as well as their own wishes. Their express purpose was to allow travel among the elven capital cities and strategically important strongholds. The ritual established many strictures over its gate's use by type of elf (race, occupation, or status) but often set the portal to activate only in the presence of a key (anything from a physical key to a lock of golden hair or the sound of a whistled tune). However, Myth Drannor's High Mages established an increasing number of open gates to allow greater access and alliances with far-away lands and peoples. While a High Mage (and some wizards) can easily close down a gate, the existence of so many worries some elves, despite the assuaging words of the Coronal Eltargrim.

One-way gates can be created by this ritual, though this becomes a ritual for four High Mages. One High Mage performs the standard gate construction, while the other three mentally corroborate each others' knowledge of the gate's exit point. The exit must be a place physically visited by at least three of the High Mages in the ritual to allow success.
The Myth Drannor gates, in particular, are likely to tie to Earth.

Asram has (had?) a portal to Finland, which the goddess Kiputytto entered to take on Talona.

Sschindrylryn's Gate: From Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, page 68. An ancient gate near the drow city of Menzoberranzan; the drow there have no idea where it leads. To open it requires drinking dragon's blood and casting an alteration spell.

WotC had a series of articles on its website called Perilous Gateways, exploring the various portals of the Forgotten Realms. These portals are all assumed to link the Realms with other places on that world (or, occasionally, places like the Ethereal Plane) but in a campaign that made more of the connections between the Realms and Earth, many of them could easily be on Earth instead. For example:

Delfondar's Map leads to a portal not in the Giantspire Mountains, but to a portal somewhere on Earth, and only afterwards leads to the Giantspires and beyond.
The Moonstars are based somewhere on Earth, with portals leading to various cities in Faerun. After Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun's exile from the Harpers, he moved to Earth but continues to use portals to keep track of events in the Realms.
The Raiding Portals were used by a lost civilization to connect to farming regions on Earth; bandits in the High Forest now use it to raid Earth's countryside.
The Escape Portal leads to Earth too.
The Isle of Prespur is actually the Isle of Prospero on Earth; he's still a Netherese mage called Prespur, but he was known as Prospero when he was Duke of Milan.
The Temple in the Forbidden Jungle is in Central America, not Chult.
The Dusty Rat Portal in Amn leads to Earth, and is a source of confused, naked adventurers from Toril. It could still lead to a vampire tower there.
Rikkine's portal is supposedly the second portal ever made, so it probably leads somewhere significant. Atlantis?
Bane's Eye. Change "three places around Faerûn" to "three places around Earth."

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:29 am

Here's a short timeline synching the two worlds, presuming that 1357 DR (when the Gray Box was set) is equivalent to 1987 AD (when the Gray Box was published on Earth), following the conceit that Elminster was providing Ed Greenwood and Jeff Grubb with the information they based the game on and commenting on it in the "Game Wizards" columns in Dragon Magazine.

-4366 DR (3736 BC) Imaskari artificers open twin gates to Earth and magically abduct thousands of humans from Egypt and Mesopotamia to serve as slaves. The artificers then erect a planar barrier to prevent contact between the slaves and their deities.

-4030 DR (3400 BC) The dawn of history on Earth—the first written languages were developed along the Tigris and Euphrates rivers

-3630 DR (3000 BC) The Bronze Age begins on Earth

-3100 DR (2470 BC) Sailors from Scandinavia on Earth name and settle the island of Ruathym in the Sea of Swords

-3000 DR (2370 BC) Sailors from Ruathym found the settlement of Illusk on the Sword Coast

-2489 DR (1859 BC) Members of the Egyptian and Mesopotamian pantheons bypass the Imaskari planar barrier by creating powerful avatars and spelljamming to Toril, led by Ptah. The Imaskari slaves then revolt against their masters.

-2103 DR (1473 BC) Giants and orcs crush the Illuskan civilization

-2100 DR (1470 BC) Survivors of Illusk settle in Icewind Dale

-2080 DR (1450 BC) Moses leads the Exodus out of Egypt

-1830 DR (1200 BC) The Iron Age begins on Earth

-1114 DR (484 BC) The Netherese begin experimenting with travel to other worlds

-1109 DR- to -953 DR (479-323 BC) The Golden Age of Greece

-1076 DR to -1069 DR (446 BC to -436 BC) Orcgate Wars on Toril. Rogue Mulhorandi wizards use Imaskari portal magic to open planar gates to an orc world.

-1071 DR (441 BC) The avatars of the gods Ra, Inanna, Girru, Ki, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, Uta, Marduk, and Tiamat die in the Orcgate Wars.

-679 DR (49 BC) Julius Caesar founds the Roman Empire

-630 DR (1 AD) Jesus of Nazareth born

-339 DR (292 AD) Karsus's Avatar spell cast, destroying Netheril.

-318 DR (313 AD) Roman Emperor Constantine legalizes Christianity

-160 DR (471 AD) The kingdoms of Narfell and Raumathar summon demon lords and an avatar of the god Kossuth, the war ending in mutually assured destruction.

-155 DR (476 AD) Western Roman Empire collapses

-155 DR - 770 DR (476-1400 AD) The Dark Ages in Europe

-105 DR (526 AD) The Rus tribe arrives in eastern Faerun by means of a malfunctioning portal.

-69 DR (562 AD) Norse humans travel through a portal to the Eastern Shaar and help establish the nation of Dambrath

-9 DR (622 AD) Islam founded on the Arabian Peninsula

465-644 DR (1095-1274 AD) The Crusades

712 DR (1342 AD) The Weeping War

714 DR (1344 AD) Myth Drannor falls to the Army of Darkness

820 DR (1450 AD) The Rennaissance

862 DR (1492 AD) European colonization of the Americas

887 DR (1517 AD) Protestant Reformation

1130 DR (1760 AD) Industrial Revolution

1284 DR (1914 AD) World War I

1309 DR (1939 AD) World War II

1357 DR (1987 AD) Grey Box published

1385 DR (2015 AD) Spellplague begins

1479 DR (2109 AD) Abyssal Plague

1480s DR (2110s AD) Second Sundering

1491 DR (2111 AD) Princes of the Apocalypse

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:20 am

HR1 Vikings:

HR1 Vikings is set between 800 AD and 1066 AD (170 DR to 436 DR).

HR1 Vikings has a list of "imaginary lands." "Imaginary lands, being imaginary, have no place on any map. At best, there are vague indications of where these lands can be found ("east beyond Permia") but not even anything as good as sailing directions exist. Player characters reach these lands by crossing over some invisible border between the real world and the Other Worlds. The border may be marked by a fierce storm that blows the ship off course of a broad swath of trackless forest. The Other Worlds can exist anywhere, even among the farmer's lands. A sudden look to the left or flicker in the moonlight may be all that's needed to reveal this hidden realm."

"Imaginary Lands" from HR1
Alfheim (an outer plane)
Asgard (an outer plane)
Geirrodargardar (the capital of Risaland, or Giantland)
Glasisvellir (a country ruled by giants "east of Permia"; this could be placed somewhere in the Realms)
Grundir (an earldom between Risaland and Jotunheim, ruled by a sorcerer with troll retainers; this could be placed somewhere in the Realms)
Jotunheim (an outer plane)
Mirkwood (could be identified with one of the dark woods of the Realms, such as the Darkwoods near Myth Drannor)
Muspelheim (an outer plane)
Niflheim (an outer plane)
Noatown (though ruled by a king, Noatown is known for its fierce amazons)
Risaland (a kingdom of giants beyond Permia)

Risaland, Glasisvellir, Grundir, Mirkwood, and Noatown should all be placed somewhere in the Realms of this era. As mentioned in HR1, a lot of travel between Earth and the Realms in this era may be through crossing through mysterious storms and invisible barriers, perhaps similar to the "fey crossings" said to connect the mortal world and Feywild in 4e. The Viking lands should connect to the lands settled by Illuskan humans in the Realms, so it should be fairly easy to travel from Norway and Iceland to Ruathym, Icewind Dale, Illusk, Rashemen, and Dambrath.

Yggdrasil, the World Ash, may also be a means of travel between Earth and Toril.

Some relevant events on Toril in this era:

-75 DR (556 AD): An alliance of the Rashemi, the Rus, and the Raumviran witches finally liberates Rashemen from demonic rule. The hero of this conflict is a half-Rus/half-Rashemi warrior named Yvengi, who wields a great magical blade named Hadryllis against Eltab [–105, 106] , severely wounding the demon lord and forcing him to flee.

189 DR (819 AD): Bregg the Strong, a mighty berserker, launches a rebellion against the witches of Rashemen when they refuse to name him Iron Lord on the death of the previous lord. Berserkers loyal to Bregg cut down dozens of hathrans in the first hours of his revolt.

194 DR (824 AD): Bregg’s rebellion is finally crushed.

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:48 am

Red Sails:

The Red Sails campaign is detailed in Dragon #290. It takes place in Russia and Ukraine, and its timeline extends from 453 AD to 1185 AD (-178 DR to 555 DR).

The strongest connections should be between the "Red Sails" lands and Rashemen, which was settled by the Rus beginning in -105 DR. Portals between the two worlds could have been created by the ancient kingdoms of Narfell and Raumathar, especially as both sides opened gates to summon allies in their long war. There may also be "fey crossings" and other such "soft" places between the worlds that don't involve formal portals, particularly deep in the primal forest.

Baba Yaga's Hut is another means of travel between the worlds, as Baba Yaga makes her journey through the planes.

Some relevant dates:

-160 DR (471 AD): Narfell and Raumathar begin their final war—a decade-long cataclysm that involves the summoning of demon lords and an avatar of Kossuth. At its conclusion, both combatants lie in ruins.

-150 DR (481 AD): End of the Great Conflagration with the destruction of both Narfell and Raumathar.

-105 DR (526 AD) The Rus tribe arrives in eastern Faerun by means of a malfunctioning portal.

-75 DR (556 AD): An alliance of the Rashemi, the Rus, and the Raumviran witches finally liberates Rashemen from demonic rule. The hero of this conflict is a half-Rus/half-Rashemi warrior named Yvengi, who wields a great magical blade named Hadryllis against Eltab [–105, 106] , severely wounding the demon lord and forcing him to flee.

189 DR (819 AD): Bregg the Strong, a mighty berserker, launches a rebellion against the witches of Rashemen when they refuse to name him Iron Lord on the death of the previous lord. Berserkers loyal to Bregg cut down dozens of hathrans in the first hours of his revolt.

194 DR (824 AD): Bregg’s rebellion is finally crushed.

306 DR (936 AD): A mighty host of orcs descends on Rashemen from the Sunrise Mountains but is driven off.

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:23 am

HR2 Charlemagne's Paladins:

The timeline in HR2 extends from 711 AD (31 DR) to 987 AD (357 DR).

On the subject of other worlds, HR2 says this:
"The faerie queen's domain is a palace surrounded by gardens, forests, and natural barriers, such as mountains, lakes, rivers, and oceans. This domain is located in the world of Faerie, an alternate Prime Material plane. Not even the sorcerers and wizards of the tales seem to know how to travel to the world of Faerie. Seldom do faerie beings venture out into our real world, but sometimes humans may stray or be lured into Faerie through bridges. Bridges into Faerie may take many forms and may or may not be attended by faeries or guarded by marvelous or monstrous beings."
It might make the most sense to use elven portals created by the elven empire of Cormanthyr to travel between the Carolingian lands and Toril, with the "faerie queens" elven noblewomen. Other portals may be available as well.

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by ripvanwormer » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:36 am

HR3 Celts:

The timeline in HR3 Celts covers 600 BC to 852 AD (-1230 DR to 222 DR).

On the subject of other worlds, HR3 says this:

"The Welsh Annwvyn, the Irish Tir Nan Og, and the lands of the Sidhe have all been described by some scholars as lands of the dead, but in the surviving literature they appear to be more like parallel worlds, and for the purposes of a Celtic campaign it is preferable to treat them as such."

Annwvyn: "Annwvyn seems to border on Pwyll's realm of Dyved, but it is not possible to find it unless guided by a native. This suggests that it is a parallel world, which can only be entered through a few well-hidden gateways. It is not a single realm, for Havgan is also a king of Annwvyn, whose realm borders on Arawn's; the tradition of raiding and border conflict seems to be as current in this world as it is in the "real" world of the Celts... Interestingly, the story of "Math Son of Mathonwy" states that pigs came from Annwvyn as a gift from Arawn to Pwyll's son Pryderi and implies they were previously unknown in the 'real' world."

Avalon: "Like Tir Nan Og (see below) it is in the west, but it seems to be nearer since the mortally wounded Arthur seems able to reach it in a small boat without a long journey. It could be that, like Annwvyn, the island is close to the mortal world but its entrance is magically hidden."

Tir Nan Og: "Tir Nan Og is the land to which the Tuatha De Danann withdrew after surrendering Ireland to the Milesians and lies somewhere across the sea to the west of Ireland." This might just be Evermeet.

Celtic campaigns set in the British Isles should connect to the Moonshaes in the Forgotten Realms, making use of portals created by the native elves there and perhaps the fomorians and firbolg.

Mainland Celts might make use of portals created by the elves of Cormanthyr or others.

The gods Oghma and Silvanus were introduced to the Realms by Celts, and in their heyday many other Celtic gods may have been worshiped in the Realms as well before being ultimately outcompeted by native deities.

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by Havard » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:59 pm

Fascinating!

These days I generally lean towards associating HR1's Alfheim with HR3's Sidhe Realms, the Feywild of 4E/5E and the Feywood from PC1 (Mystara). I assume the nature of this plane is that it appears slightly different depending on what other setting the realm is close to, so if travellers arrive from the FR it would be different than if the arrive from the Nentir Vale, Earth or Mystara etc. I do like the idea of using this plane to travel between settings, including those that are otherwise hard to access (lets call them other Dimensions). I like the idea of the Moonshae been connected to Arthurian lands.

Will you also incorporate the connections between Earth and the FR from the Wizards Three column in Dragon Magazine?

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by Big Mac » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:58 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:25 am
This would probably require more worldbuilding than I have the patience for, but it's interesting to consider a campaign that took seriously the premise that Earth’s fantastic legends derive from ancient connections to the Forgotten Realms and allowed the player characters to move freely between the two worlds.

So, something like AD&D Historical Reference Earth with the following modifications:
Have you considered what you would do with space?

Some of the HR books come from eras when people thought the Earth was the centre of the universe, with the sun revolving around it.

Are you going with a geocentric model or putting Sol (The Sun) where it belongs?

Are you going to use a Spelljammer crystal sphere (and allow helms to fly ships up into space)?

Are you going to use legends of the planets to decide what they are like?

Or are you going to go for an uninhabitable planetary system and non-Grubbian rules in space and on other worlds?
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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by apotheot » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:01 am

Isn't there a direct portal to Ed Greenwood's office in Elminster's Hideaway from Realmspace?
Apthoeot

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by ripvanwormer » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:33 pm

Havard wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:59 pm
Will you also incorporate the connections between Earth and the FR from the Wizards Three column in Dragon Magazine?
Yeah, the assumption here is the "Wizards Three" column is factual, which means that Krynn and Oerth exist too, though they're not the focus of this.
apotheot wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:01 am
Isn't there a direct portal to Ed Greenwood's office in Elminster's Hideaway from Realmspace?
Yep.
Big Mac wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:58 pm
Have you considered what you would do with space?
Well, I was going with the assumption that Earth is, more or less, the "real world" here, so any of the more fantastic legends that don't fit on the Earth we know actually take place in the Realms. So space is as we know it to be.

The hitch is that it's canon that the Mesopotamian and Egyptian deities avoided the Imaskari barrier by spelljamming from their world to Toril. So either space as we know it is a lie projected on a crystal sphere, or they spelljammed from Earth's solar system to the Known Spheres the same way the Barrier Peaks ship did, by flying into a black hole and out, probably, the Sisters in Greyspace.

It's also possible that "our" world exists in a crystal sphere so vast that the entire observable universe fits within it. Arguably, all alternate material planes exist in crystal spheres by definition within the (A)D&D cosmology. But if so, it's probably not practical to reach the edge of our crystal sphere without teleportation magic or the like.

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by Zeromaru X » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:09 am

ripvanwormer wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:29 am
1385 DR (2015 AD) Spellplague begins

1479 DR (2109 AD) Abyssal Plague

1480s DR (2110s AD) Second Sundering

1491 DR (2111 AD) Princes of the Apocalypse
Seeing the effects the Spellplague had in the timeline, and that Ed Greenwood is having correspondence with the current, older and depowered Elminster, I guess that the equivalents in these years are not so accurate.

I have the theory that the Spellplague altered the timeline in the Realms and made it move faster that it normally should for a time, fast forwarding it and keeping it out of synch with the rest of the multiverse for a time (time is relative, after all, even in our real universe; even moreso in a universe were magic is real and can influence time).

Ed only answered this with an "I don't know" :lol:, but still I like to think that this is what happened. It should explain why the timeline was not advanced for other settings such as Eberron or Greyhawk (though, it doesn't explain why the timeline was reseted for Athas). Anyways, if we go by this, 1385 DR and 1479 DR will both be 2008 in our world, and 1492 DR (current date) will be equivalent to 2019.

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by Cromstar » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:13 am

ripvanwormer wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:33 pm
Well, I was going with the assumption that Earth is, more or less, the "real world" here, so any of the more fantastic legends that don't fit on the Earth we know actually take place in the Realms. So space is as we know it to be.

The hitch is that it's canon that the Mesopotamian and Egyptian deities avoided the Imaskari barrier by spelljamming from their world to Toril. So either space as we know it is a lie projected on a crystal sphere, or they spelljammed from Earth's solar system to the Known Spheres the same way the Barrier Peaks ship did, by flying into a black hole and out, probably, the Sisters in Greyspace.

It's also possible that "our" world exists in a crystal sphere so vast that the entire observable universe fits within it. Arguably, all alternate material planes exist in crystal spheres by definition within the (A)D&D cosmology. But if so, it's probably not practical to reach the edge of our crystal sphere without teleportation magic or the like.
If you want to take Dungeon Magazine adventures as possible sources, there are definitively portals (as in more than one) from IRL Earth to the D&D Prime Material Plane.

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by Zeromaru X » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:15 am

ripvanwormer wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:33 pm
It's also possible that "our" world exists in a crystal sphere so vast that the entire observable universe fits within it. Arguably, all alternate material planes exist in crystal spheres by definition within the (A)D&D cosmology. But if so, it's probably not practical to reach the edge of our crystal sphere without teleportation magic or the like.
Well, one of the current theories is that our universe can be existing within a spherical, finite space. So, this makes sense.

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by Cromstar » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:18 am

Cromstar wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:13 am
ripvanwormer wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:33 pm
Well, I was going with the assumption that Earth is, more or less, the "real world" here, so any of the more fantastic legends that don't fit on the Earth we know actually take place in the Realms. So space is as we know it to be.

The hitch is that it's canon that the Mesopotamian and Egyptian deities avoided the Imaskari barrier by spelljamming from their world to Toril. So either space as we know it is a lie projected on a crystal sphere, or they spelljammed from Earth's solar system to the Known Spheres the same way the Barrier Peaks ship did, by flying into a black hole and out, probably, the Sisters in Greyspace.

It's also possible that "our" world exists in a crystal sphere so vast that the entire observable universe fits within it. Arguably, all alternate material planes exist in crystal spheres by definition within the (A)D&D cosmology. But if so, it's probably not practical to reach the edge of our crystal sphere without teleportation magic or the like.
If you want to take Dungeon Magazine adventures as possible sources, there are definitively portals (as in more than one) from IRL Earth to the D&D Prime Material Plane.
I should clarify, this is meant they could have gone from here to that plane and then Spelljammed from there (wherever it was) to Realmspace.

That's assuming you accept the Egyptian pantheon is native to our world.

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by ripvanwormer » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:25 am

Zeromaru X wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:09 am
Seeing the effects the Spellplague had in the timeline, and that Ed Greenwood is having correspondence with the current, older and depowered Elminster, I guess that the equivalents in these years are not so accurate.
Remember that time gates are a thing. Elminster actually has access to at least one in his hideout in the planet Coliar (detailed in Realmspace, page 51).

According to Realmspace, Elminster's hideout contains four portals:

1. A portal to a room in Elminster's castle in Toril.
2. A portal to a temple of Mystra in Evermeet.
3. Yellowstone National Park in 1894.
4. Ed Greenwood's study in our present.

So if Elminster has portals leading to two different eras on Earth, at least one of them must be a time gate. It's also possible that the 1894 version of Earth is a separate world (maybe it's Gothic Earth), but I'll ignore that possibility for the purposes of this thread.

It's possible that this means that Toril in, say, 1364 actually corresponds to Earth in 1894, not 1994, and Elminster had been traveling a century into his own future to meet with Ed Greenwood, but I think it's more likely that he had been visiting Ed Greenwood in his present and he simply liked visiting Wyoming in 1894 because the less connected and populated world offers fewer complications for him. Realmspace says 1894 "is Elminster's favorite off-Toril location to rest and relax."

An advantage to synching the "present day" in the 1e-3e era to the 19th century rather than the 20th is that the 4e-5e era would then be in our present, rather than in our future.

On the other hand, it might be fun to synch the 4e-5e era with our future, since then you can link the Forgotten Realms with a cyberpunk or post-apocalyptic setting. The Fallout 76 MMO takes place in 2102 AD, only seven years before the Abyssal plague. Unfortunately, the Gamma World setting takes place much further in the future, circa 2790 AD.
I have the theory that the Spellplague altered the timeline in the Realms and made it move faster that it normally should for a time
I have a simpler theory. Remember that Elminster spent a century after the Spellplague insane and stripped of much of his power, so he wouldn't have had access to his hideout during that period (the Spellplague may have destroyed the portal in his castle, and he wouldn't have been able to cast his Elminster's evasion spell that transported him there). When he regained his body and mind, he was once again able to access his hideout and he thought, "I should check in on my old friend Ed of the Greenwood, he'd be worried about me if I disappeared suddenly." So he either creates a new time gate, redirects his portal to Ed Greenwood's study to travel a century in the past, or he uses his portal to Yellowstone, which is already a century in the past relative to his other portal, to reestablish communications with Ed Greenwood. From Greenwood's point of view, there's no interruption in Elminster's visits, but Elminster can tell him about the century he spent insane, how he had to live in his granddaughter's body for a while, and so on.

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by Zeromaru X » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:43 am

ripvanwormer wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:25 am
I have a simpler theory. Remember that Elminster spent a century after the Spellplague insane and stripped of much of his power, so he wouldn't have had access to his hideout during that period (the Spellplague may have destroyed the portal in his castle, and he wouldn't have been able to cast his Elminster's evasion spell that transported him there). When he regained his body and mind, he was once again able to access his hideout and he thought, "I should check in on my old friend Ed of the Greenwood, he'd be worried about me if I disappeared suddenly." So he either creates a new time gate, redirects his portal to Ed Greenwood's study to travel a century in the past, or he uses his portal to Yellowstone, which is already a century in the past relative to his other portal, to reestablish communications with Ed Greenwood. From Greenwood's point of view, there's no interruption in Elminster's visits, but Elminster can tell him about the century he spent insane, how he had to live in his granddaughter's body for a while, and so on.
Well, this makes sense. However it doesn't explain why the 1492 DR is equivalent to the 591 CY of Greyhawk (that was also the equivalent year before the Spellplague), and so on.

However, the fact that Athas' timeline was rebooted beats me theory, lol.

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Re: [HREF] A campaign where the historical connections between Earth and the Realms are emphasized?

Post by ripvanwormer » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:55 pm

Zeromaru X wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:43 am
Well, this makes sense. However it doesn't explain why the 1492 DR is equivalent to the 591 CY of Greyhawk (that was also the equivalent year before the Spellplague), and so on.
Ghosts of Saltmarsh probably takes place around 576 CY, since the Scarlet Brotherhood is portrayed there as a group with ambitions of conquest (as it was in 576) rather than one that's already conquered a bunch of territory and is having trouble holding on to its gains (as it was in 591).

Mordenkainen appears in Curse of Strahd and Descent Into Avernus, but he may well be 100 years older than he was in 591, since his alignment has changed (he used to be neutral, but he's chaotic neutral post-Curse of Strahd) and none of his former allies are shown to be around.

The old equivalency was 1371 DR=591 CY, in which case 1492 DR would be 712 CY.

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