Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

"Let us create vessels and sails adjusted to the heavenly aether, and there will be plenty of people unafraid of the empty wastes." — Kepler
The Book-House: Find Spelljammer products.

Moderators: Big Mac, night_druid

Post Reply
User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 25446
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by Big Mac » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:01 pm

I'm wondering how many people there are out there who:
  1. Still like 3rd Edition Dungoens & Dragons and
  2. Are interested in playing Spelljammer
If you like both of these things, let me know what aspects of 3e and Spelljammer you like.

And let me know where you think that 3rd Edition can give new things to Spelljammer.

Do you keep the original Spelljammer setting?

Do you use Spelljammer: Shadow of the Spider Moon?

Do you do something else with Spelljammer?
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
FaerieGodfather
Shroompunk Warlord
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:16 pm
Gender: male
Contact:

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by FaerieGodfather » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:25 am

I can just about tolerate the various of flavors of 3.X with the right sorts of house rules in place-- combining 3.5 and PF, 3.5's Gestalt rules, PF's Group Skills rules, various QoL and balance fixes, and so forth.

Spelljammer is my favorite campaign setting OF ALL TIME and I loves me some SJ even if I'm not always up for a game.

Most of the accepted wisdom about 3e is that it simplified upon TSR D&D and removed a lot of the unnecessary AD&D cruft... but that is a boring and stupid answer.

I'm going to say what 3.X best brings to the table, especially for a Spelljammer game is both an astounding breadth and depth of content, and vital for Spelljammer, peerless ability to drag and drop new content from any and every source.

And... as someone who was deeply informed by the emphasis on the Shou in Realmspace... 3.0 had a brilliant, much much better, Oriental Adventures than AD&D did, chock-full of material you can use to make Wildspace more exotic. Reach for 3PP and you can add Nyambe. Pathfinder's got Distant Worlds in addition to Dragon Empires.

Deffo keep the original SJ setting materials. The SotSM mechanics are 90% of what you need for a SJ3, even if the setting... misses the point.

As for me... I try to play up the Asian fantasy elements and the mythic phyiscality of the PCs, then just bring in as much weirdness as possible from different sources.

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 25446
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by Big Mac » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:30 am

Here are my thoughts on 3e and SJ. YSJDMV.

I'm interested in 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer, for the simple reason that I want to use 3rd Edition D&D rules and I like the Spelljammer campaign setting.

One of the things I like about Spelljammer is the inclusion of Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace and the way they fit in with Greyhawk, Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms.

For me, it's not just the connectivity between Greyhawk, Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms that I like. It's the fact that the connectivity facilitates crystal spheres that spring from settings with some different laws of nature.

I was a little bit disappointed that most of the other crystal spheres didn't have quite as much variety as Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace. That's obviously down to space reasons. It's really only Clusterspace that gets a high level of detail.

So I'm hoping to find ways to infer more details for Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace. And I'm hoping to also find ways to build homebrew rules that continue the themes of canon crystal spheres.

3rd Edition has a lot of add-on rules. Every edition of D&D does, really. But something about the organisation of 3rd Edition D&D has hit the spot with me, as I feel that I can throttle 3rd Edition down to just the core rules and then look at all the other rules as "special guest rules" that can apply to one crystal sphere...or maybe a subsection of crystal spheres.

(I'm sure that could be done with other editions of D&D too. It would just be a matter of organising things. But I like the way that 3e is organised. It fits in with what I'd like to do.)

One of the things that I liked about 3rd Edition D&D was that the Level Adjustment and Racial Hit Die mechanic that meant that most monsters could be turned into playable races. Some monsters have an ECL that is so high that you might not want to use them alongside 1st level humans and demihumans, but I've seen a few books that deconstruct the Effective Character Level of monsters and build a way to start them off as 1 HD monsters that are equal to a 1st level human/demihuman.

Another thing I liked was the change from Weapon Proficiencies and Non-Weapon Proficiencies to Feats and Skills. I really liked the old 2e system, but I liked the 3e system more. (I believe that later editions included "Skill Challanges. I would have liked to have seen that in 3e - and might retroconvert the idea - but what was in 3e was enough for me.)

A third thing I liked was the Prestige Class system. I thought that was an upgrade on Kits. And with things like the Knights of Solaminia and the Wizards of High Sorcery (from Dragonlance Adventures) I thought the mechanic of not qualifying for the thing at 1st level fitted better than 2nd Edition's Kits. I didn't like all the PrCs. Some of them seemed a bit pointless (they were just "the dude who is good at doing this specfic thing" PrCs) but the ones tied into in-character organisations reminded me of those Speciality Priest things. So I like this mechanic when done well and think that it could be good to have something like a PrC for members of the Company of the Challace, for example.

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Dragonlance Campaign Setting were the two books that really sold me on the idea of using Realmspace and Krynnspace with these 3e things. The PrCs of DLCS really pop out for me and the Racial Feats and Regional Feats of FRCS do too.

I was disappointed with the Greyhawk coverage of 3e, at first. Living Greyhawk Gazetteer is good but, I didn't see a lot of PrCs, Feats and Skills specific to Greyhawk. But, more recently, I've realised that if I throttle back on the core rules stuff, I can trawl through the core books for anything with a Greyhawk tie-in and make that the "standard package" for Greyspace PCs.

So the question is: What can I do for other crystal spheres to make them "feel" as "real" as Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace. I think I could reuse some of the PrCs, Feats and Skills and refluff the in-character logic behind them.

I'll probably need to knock up a small Player's Guide to <insert crystal sphere name here> document with bespoke options. The multi-sphere organisations (from the AD&D Adventures in Space boxed set) would obviously be everywhere. And some of the later organisations that were supposed to be known across the spheres would be too. But I do like the idea that birthplace gives customisation options (including the possibility of new playable races) and would like to run with that.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 25446
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by Big Mac » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm

FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:25 am
I can just about tolerate the various of flavors of 3.X with the right sorts of house rules in place-- combining 3.5 and PF, 3.5's Gestalt rules, PF's Group Skills rules, various QoL and balance fixes, and so forth.
Ah, the eternal struggle of finding a set of rules that you can be happy with. :)

I'm more between 3.0 and 3.5 myself. (I'm going to try to make anything I write compatible with both 3.0 and 3.5 if possible...and maybe add a 3.0 sidebar if I have to "take sides" and go with 3.5.)

I've been thinking about the eternal struggle (finding rules that people are happy with) but I think it might be slowing me down too much. I think I might need to crank out some stuff and then apply errata fixes later, if necessary. (And I'm thinking of "code sharing" with the Pathfinder fans, because I don't do Pathfinder and don't want to spend a ton of time learning the PF rules and have less time to do what I want to do. I'm not getting any younger.)
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:25 am
Spelljammer is my favorite campaign setting OF ALL TIME and I loves me some SJ even if I'm not always up for a game.
Same here. I often see people doing games that are not quite my cup of tea. But I would like to see every Spelljammer fan having fun, regardless of how tight or loose they are with canon and regardless of what rules they like.

The Weem brought out that "I'm with D&D" picture some time ago. I'm more of an "I'm with Spelljammer" person, as I see campaign settings as the "vehicle" of a campaign, and the rules system as the "engine" within that vehicle.

For me, using 3e with Spelljammer is relevant, from a planning point of view, but nowhere near as relevant as the fact that I like Jeff Grubb's original Known Spheres setup and want to work with that.
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:25 am
Most of the accepted wisdom about 3e is that it simplified upon TSR D&D and removed a lot of the unnecessary AD&D cruft... but that is a boring and stupid answer.
I remember that, when I first came online and signed up to the Wizards COMmunity Boards (later Gleemax). It was a rather unhelpful mantra.

It pitted 3rd Edition fans against 2nd Edition fans and put up walls between fans. And, as someone wanting to take the best features of 2nd Edition into a 3rd Edition game, that kind of cramped my style.

That's kind of why Ashtagon said that The Piazza would be Edition War free, when she set it up. Over here we focus on the worlds we like and the settings we like.

The reality with 3rd Edition is that some folks liked it more than AD&D...and some other folks liked it less than AD&D. And that's fine. :)
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:25 am
I'm going to say what 3.X best brings to the table, especially for a Spelljammer game is both an astounding breadth and depth of content, and vital for Spelljammer, peerless ability to drag and drop new content from any and every source.
Yep. That's what sold me on the idea of using 3e. (And I didn't originally like 3rd Edition.)

I must say that I think that someone could just as easily raid ideas from 3rd Edition and retro-convert them to 2nd Edition. It isn't what I want to do, but if I meet someone doing something like retroconverting Ghostwalk to 2e, I'd be happy to cheer them along (and maybe give them some pointers).
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:25 am
And... as someone who was deeply informed by the emphasis on the Shou in Realmspace... 3.0 had a brilliant, much much better, Oriental Adventures than AD&D did, chock-full of material you can use to make Wildspace more exotic. Reach for 3PP and you can add Nyambe. Pathfinder's got Distant Worlds in addition to Dragon Empires.
The Shou stuff in Spelljammer is definitely lacking. The Rock of Bral has a Barrio for the Shou (Shou Town) and I just discovered that the people of Wa liberated a ton of elven slaves from one of the Tears of Selûne (and secured a peace deal between them and the Elven Navy). But there needs to be more Shou and Wa and Path and the Way stuff in Spelljammer.

It kind of needs to be raised up to the level of core option.

I think they have been putting Shou communities into a few of the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms products. I'll have to hunt that down at some point, to see what inspirational sources I can extrapolate from.

I agree with you on the 3e Oriental Adventures. At first I was disapointed that it was not a Kara-Tur book, but now I see Rokugan as a setting that could have Rokuganspace built around it. (And what with Legend of the Burning Sands being set on the same world as Legend of the Five Rings, I think it could also hook into the SJ plotlines in Al-Qadim.)

I do also look at 3PP material from the d20 System era to see if worlds can be "Spelljammerised". It's probably one of the key things I look for.

I'm even (shock horror) considering dropping RPGs that are non-SJ-compatible into a "trade list", so that I can get them to people who would make better use for them (and get something more useful in return).

There are a few Nyambe topics at The Piazza (not enough for a bespoke forum yet, but I've been keeping an eye on the setting). I know that Icarus in interested in that. I'm not sure how many other people like it, so I'm not sure how viable a bespoke forum would be. I think that Nyambe might come back as a 5e or Pathfinder thing, at some point, but I'm not sure how much effort would be needed to rebuild the existing stuff, before new content was written.

Have you looked at Mahasarpa? That is the free Asian world that James Wyatt created as an Oriental Adventures Web Enhancement. I've been tracking that too (he made some cool free content on his website). It's more of a western culture than the Shou and Wa cultures are (it's more like Indonesia or India). But it might be fun to have Shou Dragonships travelling to "Mahasarpaspace".

There is also another (older) Asian setting called The Star of Kolhapur that I want to look into. I don't know if the 3e OA rules would work well with that.
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:25 am
Deffo keep the original SJ setting materials. The SotSM mechanics are 90% of what you need for a SJ3, even if the setting... misses the point.
SotSM is fine. It's a workable system.

I was hoping to work with the conversion from Beyond the Moons. (That's why I asked Ashtagon to give me the Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project back in the day.)
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:25 am
As for me... I try to play up the Asian fantasy elements and the mythic phyiscality of the PCs, then just bring in as much weirdness as possible from different sources.
There is Legends & Lore and the Historical Reference series to raid from. I'm hoping to put more Greek elements into Greatspace. Greatspace is supposed to be fairly modernised, but I think that could just be a Greek civilisation in a later era than the medieval one.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
FaerieGodfather
Shroompunk Warlord
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:16 pm
Gender: male
Contact:

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by FaerieGodfather » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:46 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:30 am
So the question is: What can I do for other crystal spheres to make them "feel" as "real" as Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace. I think I could reuse some of the PrCs, Feats and Skills and refluff the in-character logic behind them.
Politics. One of the big things that made the Crystal Spheres work was that the main planets had their... political reality... and soon as you hit orbit, it changed. When you land on another planet, it changed. And each of the Radiant Triangle had its own themes, so even these wholly different planets were part of a cohesive set and when you went to another Crystal Sphere... it changed.

My main objection to shoehorning these vastly different settings into a metasetting was that they were all supposed to have their own unique cosmologies that just did not fit together, and Spellammer never really did anything with it other than using it as an excuse to nerf Clerics. (Planescape did the same thing, too.)

I think we've discussed this before. Instead of suggesting you not do this terrible thing, I will propose instead that you try to make good use of it: include Spheres that are thematically different in their use of arcane and divine magic, their access to the Planes, the nature and constitution of their divine beings. Don't be afraid to restrict Classes to specific Spheres, just like Races, but try to avoid the crippling penalties for being a foreign priest.

Also... this isn't advice, but I loooove OA, XPH/DSP, and monster races.

User avatar
FaerieGodfather
Shroompunk Warlord
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:16 pm
Gender: male
Contact:

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by FaerieGodfather » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:22 pm

Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm
I'm more between 3.0 and 3.5 myself. (I'm going to try to make anything I write compatible with both 3.0 and 3.5 if possible...and maybe add a 3.0 sidebar if I have to "take sides" and go with 3.5.)
You'll end up compatible with Pathfinder by default. There are a lot more weird niggling rules changes than most people realize, but if you write for 3.0/3.5 the PF people are just going to see any edition difference as an editing error and run it the way they're used to. Just like most 3.5 people have been doing unwittingly for years in their "PF" games.

Most of the difference is in player-facing materials, which have to be considerably downcast from PF to 3.5 or considerably upcast to go the other way.

I generally like Pathfinder and consider it an improvement on 3.5, but it has the same infuriating tendency to take 3.5's excesses and indulge them as 5e.

I've been thinking about the eternal struggle (finding rules that people are happy with) but I think it might be slowing me down too much. I think I might need to crank out some stuff and then apply errata fixes later, if necessary. (And I'm thinking of "code sharing" with the Pathfinder fans, because I don't do Pathfinder and don't want to spend a ton of time learning the PF rules and have less time to do what I want to do. I'm not getting any younger.)
Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm
Same here. I often see people doing games that are not quite my cup of tea. But I would like to see every Spelljammer fan having fun, regardless of how tight or loose they are with canon and regardless of what rules they like
Yes, this. I'm sure not every Spelljammer fan wants to see it combined with Dragon Fist, but I understand that their heresy must be... tolerated for the Greater Good.

I am working on my own near-OSR project... and it would have two default settings. The first would be... yeah... SJ/DF but really leaning away from the Tolkien influences.
Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm
For me, using 3e with Spelljammer is relevant, from a planning point of view, but nowhere near as relevant as the fact that I like Jeff Grubb's original Known Spheres setup and want to work with that.
Well, as a matter of statement rather than argument, you already know how much I disagree. I still love Spelljammer as-is, but I think the decision to make it a meta-setting kept it from being as great as it could have been.
Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm
I do also look at 3PP material from the d20 System era to see if worlds can be "Spelljammerised". It's probably one of the key things I look for.
There's a lot less volume... but I would generally say that PF 3PP is of much higher quality than d20 3PP on average. They're... basically the people who survived the d20 glut with 10 more years designing on the same system.
Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm
Have you looked at Mahasarpa? That is the free Asian world that James Wyatt created as an Oriental Adventures Web Enhancement. I've been tracking that too (he made some cool free content on his website). It's more of a western culture than the Shou and Wa cultures are (it's more like Indonesia or India). But it might be fun to have Shou Dragonships travelling to "Mahasarpaspace".
It's still up on the WotC website, amazingly.
Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm
There is Legends & Lore and the Historical Reference series to raid from. I'm hoping to put more Greek elements into Greatspace. Greatspace is supposed to be fairly modernised, but I think that could just be a Greek civilisation in a later era than the medieval one.
I do like a lot of the Chinese folk aesthetic in the OA stuff... but I'll admit, most of my interest is that OA seems like the only time D&D designers aren't locked into the Guy at the Gym fallacy. I know the Celtic book gets pretty nutso, but does the Greek book also lean into the idea that the more you go beyond name level, the more of a demigod you become?

Argentmantle
Hill Giant
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:12 pm
Gender: male
Location: Chicago, USA

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by Argentmantle » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:10 pm

I'll chime in here pretty briefly. I don't see a reason to change from Spelljammer to Spider Moon. The two are not mutually exclusive, with some tweaks. So, really, the focus should be on making SJ into 3.x. Spider Moon mechanics are pretty spot on for conversion and would make a good starting point.

Now, as for the Greyspace, I think the thing to keep in mind with 'Greyhawk' is that most of the core 'brown' 3.x books are geared toward Greyhawk. It doesn't have the specificity of the DL/FR books but is pretty all-encompassing for player's option, very vague backgrounds, and the like. Just looking at the spell names Rary, Tasha, Otiluke, Mordenkainen, and Melf.

As for what you could do for each sphere to seem more real, I would imagine that this depends on the magnitude of the ‘real’ factor you’re going for. I mean, you technically could write up PrCs, magic items, and the like for each main world and produce a guide book for the main world of each Sphere. You could go in a slightly different direction and focus on putting out a ‘XSpace’ book for each and limit the descriptions to something similar to what is found in Grey/Krynn/Realmspace respectively.

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 25446
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by Big Mac » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:43 pm

FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:46 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:30 am
So the question is: What can I do for other crystal spheres to make them "feel" as "real" as Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace. I think I could reuse some of the PrCs, Feats and Skills and refluff the in-character logic behind them.
Politics. One of the big things that made the Crystal Spheres work was that the main planets had their... political reality... and soon as you hit orbit, it changed. When you land on another planet, it changed. And each of the Radiant Triangle had its own themes, so even these wholly different planets were part of a cohesive set and when you went to another Crystal Sphere... it changed.
Oh politics is good. :cool:

More importantly, politics is "Edition Neutral". Something like the conflict with the Red Wizards of Thay needs no special rules. It could be used with 2nd Edition or 3rd Edition.

Greatspace has that Hellenic culture of people who think they are super modern. That would dominate that sphere.
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:46 pm
My main objection to shoehorning these vastly different settings into a metasetting was that they were all supposed to have their own unique cosmologies that just did not fit together, and Spellammer never really did anything with it other than using it as an excuse to nerf Clerics. (Planescape did the same thing, too.)
I've had some thoughts about cosmology. I've not got it all figured out, but I think of a "Wonky Wheel" model, where different crystal spheres can have a slightly different view of how the Great Wheel works.

It might be an issue for Planescape, but I do not see it as an issue for Spelljammer as I go for the One Prime Material Plane model (where the Phlogiston and all the crystal spheres are all in the one plane).

And I don't see the Cleric thing as nerfing players. I see it as a thing that nerfs certain religions.

The big Spelljammer religions can be given access to most (if not all crystal spheres). The religions that are supposed to be bespoke to a single crystal sphere then turn into local themes for that crystal sphere.

So I would personally continue that idea (rather than overturn it). I would have the (good) Greek gods in Greatspace, for example.

The upside of having deities that don't have a major presence outside of a crystal sphere is that it gives a GM an explanation for spheres having a strong internal trade and a weaker trade with other crystal spheres.

I personally think it is important for:
  • Most celestial bodies to work as if they are a self-contained setting,
  • The planetary systems inside crystal spheres to work as a self-contained setting and
  • The SJ universe (or in my case The Known Spheres) to work as a self-contained setting.
I see SJ gamers needing to be able to do low-level adventures on an asteroid, moon or planet, mid-level adventures within the sphere and higher-level adventures. (I wouldn't suggest a GM was "doing things wrong" if they skipped things along, but if you can get by running adventures on an asteroid, it helps a PC to level up a bit before they take on higher level monsters.

NPCs who have never left their asteroid and trading companies that have never travelled through the Phlogistion add realism to me. And they might PCs that do more than the average NPC feel more special.

And you suggested local politcs yourself. What could be better than local religions with their own politics. :)
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:46 pm
I think we've discussed this before. Instead of suggesting you not do this terrible thing, I will propose instead that you try to make good use of it: include Spheres that are thematically different in their use of arcane and divine magic, their access to the Planes, the nature and constitution of their divine beings. Don't be afraid to restrict Classes to specific Spheres, just like Races, but try to avoid the crippling penalties for being a foreign priest.
That's exactly the sort of thing that I want to do.

And the pentalties for a non-local Cleric are not really that bad.

A simple "Contact Home Power" spell buys short term access to spells.

And the system in CGR1 The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook allows a PC Cleric to set up a religious stronghold that smashes down the barriers and brings their deity into a crystal sphere that they were not in before.
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:46 pm
Also... this isn't advice, but I loooove OA, XPH/DSP, and monster races.
I take it OA is Oriental Adventures. I'd be wanting to use that a bit more (as Kara-Tur is supposed to be a major thing).

So what are XPH and DSP?

Is XPH the 3.5 psionics book?

As for monster races, I'm thinking of Equicephs for Greyspace because of their presence in the Chainmail product line. So it would be things like that.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
FaerieGodfather
Shroompunk Warlord
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:16 pm
Gender: male
Contact:

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by FaerieGodfather » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:46 am

Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:43 pm
And I don't see the Cleric thing as nerfing players. I see it as a thing that nerfs certain religions.
It's not going to be the fictional religions sitting at your table feeling like third wheels, though. Penalizing Clerics for lack of access to their Powers is both cruel and wholly unnecessary when you compare their situation to arcane spellcasters travelling between, say, Realmspace and Krynnspace.

I'm not interested in letting this argument wear out its welcome. That's my take on the subject, and I'm perfectly capable of removing such rules from my own experience while calling you some truly, spectacularly vile names under my breath. At the end of the day, it's what I was put on this Earth to do.
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:43 pm
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:46 pm
Also... this isn't advice, but I loooove OA, XPH/DSP, and monster races.
I take it OA is Oriental Adventures. I'd be wanting to use that a bit more (as Kara-Tur is supposed to be a major thing).

So what are XPH and DSP?

Is XPH the 3.5 psionics book?

As for monster races, I'm thinking of Equicephs for Greyspace because of their presence in the Chainmail product line. So it would be things like that.
Yeah, OA is Oriental Adventures (both editions) and XPH is Expanded Psionics Handbook, the 3.5 psionics supplement.

DSP is Dreamscarred Press, a popular enough publisher of 3.5 psionics material who became the #1 3PP publisher for Pathfinder by converting the open game material in the XPH to Pathfinder and dramatically expanding them. They've also done their rendition of The Book of Nine Swords and they're working on Magic of Incarnum, though these projects are hampered by the need to rewrite material that never entered the OGL.

Tumakhunter
Goblin
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:19 am
Gender: male

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by Tumakhunter » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:18 am

I like where a lot of this is going. I've always loved Spelljammer, particularly the Grubbian Physics of it. That was always my favourite part. I could care less for the Radiant Triangle, and always thought that other spheres were a lot more interesting.

These days I generally play Pathfinder, though it's so easy to convert most 3.x stuff over (I've actually had people refer to PF as 3.75) that it makes no nevermind. I think there are a lot of cool things that could be added to SJ from 3.x / PF, as has been mentioned above.

I'm not really sure what I have to add beyond that, right now. I'm only just coming back to the Piazza after a long absence.

User avatar
AuldDragon
White Dragon
Posts: 2241
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:28 am
Gender: male
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Contact:

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by AuldDragon » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:04 pm

FaerieGodfather wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:46 am
It's not going to be the fictional religions sitting at your table feeling like third wheels, though. Penalizing Clerics for lack of access to their Powers is both cruel and wholly unnecessary when you compare their situation to arcane spellcasters travelling between, say, Realmspace and Krynnspace.
Keep in mind this wasn't a specific choice to create an impediment to playing priests. It was a direct extension of how priestly magic was handled traveling the planes and from world to world, before Spelljammer was created. It was directly in keeping with pre-Spelljammer material on traveling between the various campaign settings, as well as other worlds.

Jeff
Let's Play Old Games with AuldDragon (Youtube) | My 2nd Edition Blog
Monster Mythology Update Project | Spelljammer Livestream Campaign
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 25446
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by Big Mac » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:57 pm

FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:22 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm
I'm more between 3.0 and 3.5 myself. (I'm going to try to make anything I write compatible with both 3.0 and 3.5 if possible...and maybe add a 3.0 sidebar if I have to "take sides" and go with 3.5.)
You'll end up compatible with Pathfinder by default. There are a lot more weird niggling rules changes than most people realize, but if you write for 3.0/3.5 the PF people are just going to see any edition difference as an editing error and run it the way they're used to. Just like most 3.5 people have been doing unwittingly for years in their "PF" games.

Most of the difference is in player-facing materials, which have to be considerably downcast from PF to 3.5 or considerably upcast to go the other way.

I generally like Pathfinder and consider it an improvement on 3.5, but it has the same infuriating tendency to take 3.5's excesses and indulge them as 5e.
Maybe people who like Pathfinder will push for that sort of thing (if it turns out that they are interested in what I am doing).

And if someone who is familiar with a ruleset that I've got no intention of learning (right now) because I don't have the time to do 3e stuff and learn Pathfinder, is willing to do the donkey work, and wants to work with me, I might incorporate the bits that are 100 percent 3.0 and 3.5 compatible and I might add a sidebar or two with pure Pathfinder rules.

But I would probably be inclined to push any major differences into a separate conversion document, so that I am not making non-D&D PDFs.

I'll see what happens..if anything happens. :)

(And I've got no issue with other people doing a straight-to-Pathfinder conversion, so long as they don't bug me and ask me to read all their Pathfinder rule stuff.)
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:22 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm
Same here. I often see people doing games that are not quite my cup of tea. But I would like to see every Spelljammer fan having fun, regardless of how tight or loose they are with canon and regardless of what rules they like
Yes, this. I'm sure not every Spelljammer fan wants to see it combined with Dragon Fist, but I understand that their heresy must be... tolerated for the Greater Good.

I am working on my own near-OSR project... and it would have two default settings. The first would be... yeah... SJ/DF but really leaning away from the Tolkien influences.
Dragon Fist is very interesting. I had forgotten about that.

I may well look into a Dragon Fist crystal sphere...at some point, but I probably wouldn't tie it into any 3e conversion I did. (It would be a separate project.)

There are a couple of Dragon Fist topics on The Piazza. I'm hoping that Green Ronin will bring it back, at some point, as they own the rights now.

If Green Ronin published it now, I'd expect them to do a 5e D&D version or a 2e Pathfinder version (probably 5e D&D, as Pathfinder is still up in the air).

Why don't you start a topic about Dragon Fist in the Other Worlds forum (or bump one of the existing ones if appropriate) or start a topic about building a crystal sphere for Dragon Fist in the Spelljammer topic. Maybe some other folks would talk to you about Dragon Fist. (Maybe you could help build enough interest for Dragon Fist to "win" a bespoke forum at The Piazza.)
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:22 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm
For me, using 3e with Spelljammer is relevant, from a planning point of view, but nowhere near as relevant as the fact that I like Jeff Grubb's original Known Spheres setup and want to work with that.
Well, as a matter of statement rather than argument, you already know how much I disagree. I still love Spelljammer as-is, but I think the decision to make it a meta-setting kept it from being as great as it could have been.
:-)

I look to how Ashtagon made The Piazza a place where we don't do "Edition War nonsense" for inspiration for how I deal with folks that disagree with me about the best way to do D&D.

I don't see fans of other editions as my "enemy" or something that blocks me. Likewise I don't see people that dislike Spelljammer as my "enemy" or something that blocks me.

So I also don't see people who want to do Spelljammer differently as a problem for me. (Well, not a problem so long as they don't follow me around posting their dislike of 3e, Spelljammer and/or the Known Spheres in every topic I start. I'm not a fan of trolls.)

If you don't like the Known Spheres, that's great (for you) as it means you are closer to knowing what you want. If you like Shadow of the Spider Moon or Clusterspace please do start "[SotSM]" or '[Clusterspace]" topics.

And if you want to build your own bespoke Asian-style Spelljammer universe, then go for it. :)
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:22 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm
I do also look at 3PP material from the d20 System era to see if worlds can be "Spelljammerised". It's probably one of the key things I look for.
There's a lot less volume... but I would generally say that PF 3PP is of much higher quality than d20 3PP on average. They're... basically the people who survived the d20 glut with 10 more years designing on the same system.
There is some truth to that.

It's also true that a lot of things that were published for Pathfinder were published for 3e D&D first. So if there is a 3e version, I don't need to buy a Pathfinder version and retro-convert it.

But, my priority is the Known Spheres, so any sort of decision about building homebrew crystal spheres aroune 3PP campaign settings is something for down the line.
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:22 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm
Have you looked at Mahasarpa? That is the free Asian world that James Wyatt created as an Oriental Adventures Web Enhancement. I've been tracking that too (he made some cool free content on his website). It's more of a western culture than the Shou and Wa cultures are (it's more like Indonesia or India). But it might be fun to have Shou Dragonships travelling to "Mahasarpaspace".
It's still up on the WotC website, amazingly.
Yep.

I think that James Wyatt's website has been overhauled though. I've got links to archived versions of his Mahasarpa stuff. (James has written some other cool free stuff. He is almost as prolific a world designer as Jeff Grubb.)
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:22 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 pm
There is Legends & Lore and the Historical Reference series to raid from. I'm hoping to put more Greek elements into Greatspace. Greatspace is supposed to be fairly modernised, but I think that could just be a Greek civilisation in a later era than the medieval one.
I do like a lot of the Chinese folk aesthetic in the OA stuff... but I'll admit, most of my interest is that OA seems like the only time D&D designers aren't locked into the Guy at the Gym fallacy. I know the Celtic book gets pretty nutso, but does the Greek book also lean into the idea that the more you go beyond name level, the more of a demigod you become?
I'm not sure what the "Guy at the Gym" thing is, but if you are complaining about some HR settings being overpowered, I hear you. They were not really designed to be used together. And they were not really designed to be used with mainstream D&D. So there was never any need to make anything balanced. A Greek book is going to go for epic levels, as that is what the myths do.

I would be wanting to maybe dial back on some stuff for conventional play.

But 3e does have the Epic Handbook, so having access to high-level stuff of all cultures would be good.

Having said that, I remember that some of the early D&D editions had level caps. (IIRC if you wanted to level up as a druid, you had to find the high-level druid and beat them in a fight.) that sort of thing might be something that could work as a "house rule" for a bespoke crystal sphere.

It might also be "fun" to have a crystal sphere where there are level caps and a 18th level PC functions as a 14th level PC until they leave the crystal sphere. (That might be an interesting "control mechanism" to stop powerful PCs from walking all over low-level NPCs.)
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

Jaid
Fire Giant
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:26 am

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by Jaid » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:43 am

"guy at the gym" is basically talking about how people often judge what a fighter (or similar) can do based on what a guy at the gym could potentially do, but allowing magic to do all kinds of crazy things. basically, there are those that think fighters should be considered more like a fantastical warrior could do, kinda more like you would find in legends and mythology. basically, there are those who think that the fighter should be kinda magical, but not a spellcaster.

this is of course somewhat complicated by the fact that D&D fighters are explicitly non-magical. and ive definitely seen people go bonkers when you suggest anything that might allow a fighter type to do anything that could even possibly be magical.

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 25446
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by Big Mac » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:43 am

I wrote a long reply to this on Friday evening and then fell asleep at the keyboard and zapped it. :facepalm:

I'm sure it won't be as good the second time.
Argentmantle wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:10 pm
I'll chime in here pretty briefly. I don't see a reason to change from Spelljammer to Spider Moon. The two are not mutually exclusive, with some tweaks. So, really, the focus should be on making SJ into 3.x. Spider Moon mechanics are pretty spot on for conversion and would make a good starting point.
That's true. The Pyrespace conversion that Static created is very good, and I would encourage everyone to give it a look, before reinventing the wheel.

But for me, the starting point is about narrowing my focus. So rather than deal with how Pyrespace fits into the Known Spheres setting now, I'm thinking that it's a can I can kick down the road.

I'm even thinking that, to make things easier for me, I can separate out Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace (and Bralspace) and focus initially on getting just Greyspace to work with the core 3rd Edition rules.

Then, if I ever get the core SJ PDF finished, I could do a "Player's Guide to Realmspace" that includes Regional Feats rules and a "Player's Guide to Krynnspace" that includes rules about the effects of the Moons of Magic on spellcasting across the sphere.

I could even drop Greyspace down to "Greyspace-lite" level and focus mostly on getting the 3e rules to work (so that anyone who didn't like Greyspace wouldn't be reading too much stuff that was of no use to them). If I cut things back like that, I could do a follow up "Players Guide to Greyspace" that was on the same sort of level as Living Greyhawk Gazeteer.
Argentmantle wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:10 pm
Now, as for the Greyspace, I think the thing to keep in mind with 'Greyhawk' is that most of the core 'brown' 3.x books are geared toward Greyhawk. It doesn't have the specificity of the DL/FR books but is pretty all-encompassing for player's option, very vague backgrounds, and the like. Just looking at the spell names Rary, Tasha, Otiluke, Mordenkainen, and Melf.
Yep.

I worked that out a while ago, thanks to people here. But there are some things (like the Red Wizard of Thay PrC in the DMG) that do not belong.

So, it would probably be a good idea for me to review each and every core 3e book and see what stuff would work as a "Greyspace-lite" element.

I've even looked at the Hero Builder's Guidebook in the past and wondered if that sort of process could be reviewed for specific crystal spheres. For example, if you want a Barbarian Half-Orc from Greyspace, where are the places your PC can come from? And if you want an Elven Druid from Krynnspace, what are your options? And if you want a Gnomish Sorcerer from Realmspace what choices do you have there?

At the moment, it seems to me that not all of the options are facilitated by those three crystal spheres.
Argentmantle wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:10 pm
As for what you could do for each sphere to seem more real, I would imagine that this depends on the magnitude of the ‘real’ factor you’re going for. I mean, you technically could write up PrCs, magic items, and the like for each main world and produce a guide book for the main world of each Sphere. You could go in a slightly different direction and focus on putting out a ‘XSpace’ book for each and limit the descriptions to something similar to what is found in Grey/Krynn/Realmspace respectively.
What I am after is a couple of things:

Firstly, I want Greyspace to feel like "The Greyhawk Crystal Sphere", Krynnspace to feel like "The Dragonlance Crystal Sphere" and Realmspace to feel like "The Forgotten Realms Crystal Sphere".

Secondly, I want other crystal spheres to feel as "special" as Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace without creating ton of work for myself that never gets used.

For the first thing, it's about
  • Looking at Greyhawk and Chainmail: Sundered Empire to see what themes can be exported into Greyspace,
  • Looking at Dragonlance, Taladas and Otherlands to see what themes can be exported into Krynnspace and
  • Looking at Forgotten Realms, Al-Quadm, Maztica, Kara-Tur, The Horde, Arcane Age and Malatra: The Living Jungle to see what themes can be exported to Realmspace
There are themes in those products about:
  • The existence of an Overgod,
  • The number of deities in the sphere,
  • The names of "zodiac constellations" on the ecliptic of the sphere wall,
  • The presence of variant types of magic
I see the sphere wall as the natural barrier to those local themes. The themes don't all need to be exported to Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace, but they are all things that would make the spheres feel "familiar".

In Greyspace, for example, we know that the Celestians have explored Greyspace (and also gone beyond the crystal sphere). So it makes sense to look at the places of worship on Oerth and to make similar ones on other celestial bodies in Greyspace.

The SJR2, SJR6 and SJR7 organisations all need to be in Realmspace, Greyspace and Krynnspace. But the core SJ organisations also need to be in Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace. (And they all need to have ties to some of the local groups and some of the local themes.)

If Prestige Classes, Feats, Skills, magic items or spells can help tie anything from Spelljammer to Greyspace, Krynnspace or Realmspace, that would be helpful.

For the second thing (making other crystal spheres feel as "special" as Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace) it is all about looking at the themes of those crystal spheres and seeing what could be built upon.

However, there are some crystal spheres that can work as a place of origin for PCs (like Bralspace, Greatspace and Faeriespace) and there are other crystal spheres that are not places where a PC would be born (like Darkspace, Herospace or Nex). So I'd split these into "PC spheres" and "NPC spheres".

For an NPC sphere a GM needs enough ideas to "sell" the sphere as being different.

Herospace is a place for retired adventurers. The main themes are the different alignment worlds, each with their own suns and the special crystals needed to visit them. Retired adventurers go here, so it's never going to be a birthplace of a PC. And you can grab high level PCs from any other place to sell the fact that Herospace attracts heroes from anywhere.

Darkspace is only populated by undead and people brought there from Greatspace. So that's an easy GM-only-theme, plus a "use the backgrounds from another crystal sphere theme" for the other bit.

Nex is the home of devolved Juna and a living world does everything for them. I don't think think that needs a "Player's Guide".

But, a GM might decide they want to expand on the Greatspace content in SJA3 Crystal Spheres and run adventures there. A "Player's Guide to Greatspace" could provide a list of local deities (with 3e Domains), local groups (maybe with PrCs), a list of local weapons and equipment, local "zodiac constellations" and a list of choices for points of origins for every class and every race.

Greatspace has some Greek themes, but also has themes of sages being old and outdated, so Renaissance Greece might be looked at, to see how Greatspace could have evolved a "Greek science".

If there are going to be the core races in Greatspace, then it might be appropriate to copy what Dragonlance did (with it's restricted deities) and have "Greek Elves", "Greek Gnomes", "Greek Halflings" and "Greek Half-Orcs".

But - none of this would need to be done for a core Spelljammer 3e Conversion document. It's all kick the can down the road stuff.

And, if someone just wanted to touch on something, they might not need to build a full "Player's Guide to..." PDF. For Faeriespace, a GM could just start off with some rules on Shrakma (not sure on the spelling - I'll edit the post later if it's wrong) and how it would interact with divine magic.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 25446
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by Big Mac » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:01 am

FaerieGodfather wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:46 am
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:43 pm
And I don't see the Cleric thing as nerfing players. I see it as a thing that nerfs certain religions.
It's not going to be the fictional religions sitting at your table feeling like third wheels, though. Penalizing Clerics for lack of access to their Powers is both cruel and wholly unnecessary when you compare their situation to arcane spellcasters travelling between, say, Realmspace and Krynnspace.

I'm not interested in letting this argument wear out its welcome. That's my take on the subject, and I'm perfectly capable of removing such rules from my own experience while calling you some truly, spectacularly vile names under my breath. At the end of the day, it's what I was put on this Earth to do.
I don't want to squabble over things like this either, but I will say that this is easy to solve.

And the solution is this:
  • This is a central theme of Spelljammer (for reasons AuldDragon described) so needs to be converted, so that the people who do want to use this rule, can still use it but,
  • There can easily be a "Don't like the Cleric Rules? sidebar to offer an alternative
One of the thing that has always held back the 3e conversion attempts (IMO) has been people arguing for change in how Spelljammer works, instead of moving the project forward.

The offer the conversion + offer an alternative sidebar approach cures all problems.

In this case, the sidebar for the people who do not like this rule is simple. "Don't like it - don't use it." Job done.

It's quite possible for people to convert this part of Spelljammer (including the Contact Home Power spell and things like Icons) without it causing a single problem for people who want to toss the rule out.

Providing a conversion of a 2e rule to 3e fans, does not stop people from ignoring the rule.

But not providing a conversion of a 2e rule to 3e fans does stop people from using the rule.

So, in order to ensure that everyone could use the Known Spheres setting, with 3rd Edition rules, I would endeavour to put my own personal dislikes to one side and convert things, even if I personally didn't want to use them.
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:46 am
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:43 pm
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:46 pm
Also... this isn't advice, but I loooove OA, XPH/DSP, and monster races.
I take it OA is Oriental Adventures. I'd be wanting to use that a bit more (as Kara-Tur is supposed to be a major thing).

So what are XPH and DSP?

Is XPH the 3.5 psionics book?

As for monster races, I'm thinking of Equicephs for Greyspace because of their presence in the Chainmail product line. So it would be things like that.
Yeah, OA is Oriental Adventures (both editions) and XPH is Expanded Psionics Handbook, the 3.5 psionics supplement.

DSP is Dreamscarred Press, a popular enough publisher of 3.5 psionics material who became the #1 3PP publisher for Pathfinder by converting the open game material in the XPH to Pathfinder and dramatically expanding them. They've also done their rendition of The Book of Nine Swords and they're working on Magic of Incarnum, though these projects are hampered by the need to rewrite material that never entered the OGL.
Thanks for the clarification.

I would be looking to make a core Spelljammer PDF compatible with Spelljammer and the core rules.

I might not even go for a psionics system, in that. Psionics, like incarnum, is clearly an expansion for 3e. I think it's a kick the can down the road thing.

And 3PP books are definitely a kick the can further down the road thing, as the OGL relationship to 3rd Edition is via the ESD Conversion Agreement, rather than via an SRD.

Spelljammer PDFs clearly have to be non-profit freebies, with no commercial reuse of content. So you can't just slap an OGL in them and borrow OGC from elsewhere. You have to ensure that you make them ESD Conversion Agreement compatible (if only to protect others from reusing content and getting into trouble).

Avoiding using 3PP OGC is probably a bit easier. ;)
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 25446
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by Big Mac » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:04 am

AuldDragon wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:04 pm
FaerieGodfather wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:46 am
It's not going to be the fictional religions sitting at your table feeling like third wheels, though. Penalizing Clerics for lack of access to their Powers is both cruel and wholly unnecessary when you compare their situation to arcane spellcasters travelling between, say, Realmspace and Krynnspace.
Keep in mind this wasn't a specific choice to create an impediment to playing priests. It was a direct extension of how priestly magic was handled traveling the planes and from world to world, before Spelljammer was created. It was directly in keeping with pre-Spelljammer material on traveling between the various campaign settings, as well as other worlds.
Thanks Auld.

And with the rule just needing 2e Priests to:
  • Cast the Contact Home Power spell once per week,
  • Use an Icon (or similar object) or
  • Carry out the year-and-a-day ritual from CGR1 The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook
I think it would be a piece of cake to convert this to 3rd Edition.

You pretty much just need to change "Priest" to "Cleric". :lol:
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

User avatar
Big Mac
Giant Space Hamster
Posts: 25446
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 pm
Gender: male
Location: London UK
Contact:

Re: Who likes 3rd Edition D&D and Spelljammer?

Post by Big Mac » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:14 am

Jaid wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:43 am
"guy at the gym" is basically talking about how people often judge what a fighter (or similar) can do based on what a guy at the gym could potentially do, but allowing magic to do all kinds of crazy things. basically, there are those that think fighters should be considered more like a fantastical warrior could do, kinda more like you would find in legends and mythology. basically, there are those who think that the fighter should be kinda magical, but not a spellcaster.
I thought that the stat limits in D&D covered this. 18 is the maximum you can roll for a PC and anything above that was "superhuman".

3rd Edition dropped that 18 percentage stuff, but a strength of 25 is still a "superhuman" strength, that no normal mortal can match.
Jaid wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:43 am
this is of course somewhat complicated by the fact that D&D fighters are explicitly non-magical. and ive definitely seen people go bonkers when you suggest anything that might allow a fighter type to do anything that could even possibly be magical.
Got you.

Well I see this as a "I don't like this D&D rule" problem, rather than a Spelljammer conversion problem.

It's not even a "I don't like this Spelljammer rule" problem, to be addressed with a "If you don't like this rule, here is an alternative" sidebar.

If people are going to throw their toys out of the pram, when a fighter can do something they have paid for with a supernatural Feat, that's an issue for the GM and the player to discuss at their gaming table.

I guess that a GM that really hates that part of 3rd Edition could house-rule it, but it doesn't seem to have any connection to the Spelljammer setting. (And there comes a time when you houserule the rules so much, that you are not playing 3rd Edition any more.) Maybe the "guy in the gym" folks would like Pathfinder better...or some other rules system entirely.

Thanks for the clarification there.

I shall chug on and try not to dawdle for the naysayers. For the naysayers have to naysay. ;)
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Please join The Piazza's Facebook group, The Piazza's Facebook page and follow The Piazza's Twitter feed so that you can stay in touch.
Spelljammer 3E Conversion Project - Spelljammer Wiki - The Spelljammer Image Group.
Moderator of the Spelljammer forum (and administrator). My moderator voice is green.

Post Reply

Return to “Spelljammer”