[Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

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[Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by Big Mac »

According to Forgotten Realms Wiki T'u Lung and Shou Lung split when the emperor of Shou Lung died and the northern factions backed Shin Lu, while the southern lords of (what would split off and become T'u Lung) backed Shin Gisen.

Spelljammer mentions that some spacefaring Shou have split off from Shou Lung, but doesn't go into a lot of detail.

How well does the Shou Lung / T'u Lung split fit into the idea of some spacefaring Shou refusing to recognise the emperor. Could some Shou spacefarers actually be ones who recognise the alternative emperor (and are therefore aligned with T'u Lung?)

The Path of Enlightenment and The Way are important Shou organisations found across Wildspace. Are there any other factions within the nation of Shou Lung that might break with the homeworld?

Some of the later Forgotten Realms sources write about Shou Towns. Do they have anything that talks about Shou Towns remaining loyal or being split-off communities, that could be used as inspiration for adding detail to Shou Lung spacefarer's (and maybe their T'u Lung neighbours).
Last edited by Big Mac on Wed May 20, 2020 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by night_druid »

For the most part, there really isn't much written about the Kara-Tur nations in spelljammer. I think Paul's article pretty much sums it up.

There are a large number of "rogue" Shou dragonships. No doubt a few side with T'u Lung; most just decided to go into business for themselves for various reasons. We don't have a large list of "Shou Towns" to work from; I think the only one in canon is on Bral. And the "port" on Chislev, if you count its sole occupant ;) If more were detailed, no doubt we'd have communities of about every Kara-Tur nation, as well as so-called Shou Towns created by people of the "oriental" nations of Oerth, Mystara, etc. Toss in Krynn, if you count the fan-created continent inspired by east asia.
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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by GMWestermeyer »

night_druid wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:55 pm
For the most part, there really isn't much written about the Kara-Tur nations in spelljammer. I think Paul's article pretty much sums it up.
That was rather the point. :)


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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by ruedas15 »

So effectively what is known is yet to be written?


Excellent.

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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by Big Mac »

night_druid wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:55 pm
For the most part, there really isn't much written about the Kara-Tur nations in spelljammer. I think Paul's article pretty much sums it up.
Paul's PDF is awesome. :cool:

But I'm kind of looking for canon, from Kara-Tur sources, and even secondary canon, from Forgotten Realms sources, that says anything about Shou people outside Kara-Tur.

I know there have been some Dragon article about Oriental Adventures and or Kara-Tur, so I figure that some of those articles, or some Forgotten Realms articles, might be things that - while not directly about Shou Lung spacefarers - can be used to infer details about Shou Lung spacefarers.
night_druid wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:55 pm
There are a large number of "rogue" Shou dragonships. No doubt a few side with T'u Lung; most just decided to go into business for themselves for various reasons. We don't have a large list of "Shou Towns" to work from; I think the only one in canon is on Bral. And the "port" on Chislev, if you count its sole occupant ;)
There is actually a Shou-town article on Forgotten Realms Wiki. It's a disambiguation page (a page to point people at one of several articles about Shou-towns). Sadly all the articles it currently points to are redlinks (except for the article on Bral's Shou-Town):
  • Shou-town (Bral)
  • Shou-town (Chavyondat)
  • Shou-town (Eversult)
  • Shou-town (Marsember)
  • Shou-town (Phsant)
  • Shou-town (Sheirtalar)
  • Shou-town (Telflamm)
  • Shou-town (Tharsult)
  • Shou-town (Westgate)
They might not have articles for those other Shou-towns yet, but maybe I can find information about the Shou-towns in articles about those other places. I might even own some of the books that articles for those other cities point to, in their citations.

Anyhoo, I'm not sure how well documented the other Shou-towns are, but we have nine Shou-towns, instead of just the one.

Maybe I can get a general idea of if these towns are supposed to be representative of the Shou Lung governement (the way that Thayan Enclaves are supposed to legally be part of Thay) or if they are just areas built up around the import of goods from Shou Lung, via the Silk Road.

I would also like to get a general idea if "Shou-town" is literally supposed to be a town full of people from Shou Lung, or if it is a generic term that people in Faerûn use for people who might also hail from other Kara-Tur lands.

I guess that, if the Silk Road terminates in Shou Lung and the Shou control access to the Silk Road, from their end, that might radically throttle down the number of folks from T'u Lung and other nations that travel west.

And from a Spelljammer point of view, if Shou Lung and Wa are the only active nations in Realmspace that routinely send up ships into the Sea of Night, that could also throttle down the number of humans (and other Eastern Realms fantasy races) that get onto their ships and up off of the world.

I don't recall any mention of Wa in the Rock of Bral book. I think that might have been a later addition in the War Captain's Companion. So maybe there should be some Wa spies on Bral who might pass as Shou to many of the spacefarers on Bral (especially if they used some sort of disguise to appear less Wa-like and more Shou-like).

So I'm guessing that other nations that interact with Shou Lung, especially T'u Lung, might have a motivation to get to the Shou-town in The Rock of Bral and other places. And if Wa is a rival to Shou Lung (I need to confirm this) it might be in their interest to take T'u Lung people who are essentially identical to Shou Lung people up into the Sea of Night on their ships, so that they can use them as proxies. :twisted:

So I need to look for information on those other 8 Shou-towns and get a better understanding of how T'u Lung and Shou Lung work together (as a fantasy China split in half) to see if I can figure out what might be believable.
night_druid wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:55 pm
If more were detailed, no doubt we'd have communities of about every Kara-Tur nation, as well as so-called Shou Towns created by people of the "oriental" nations of Oerth, Mystara, etc. Toss in Krynn, if you count the fan-created continent inspired by east asia.
I definitely want to build up a list of Asian nations in other crystal spheres. I think that, in order for things to be believable, you need various human races and subraces of demi-humans to be found in multiple places. (Maybe not every sphere would have Asian-style humans. I probably wouldn't put anything that didn't have a Greek connection into Greatspace.) But I do think there should be countless Asian-like humans, with a bunch of different (probably non-statistical) variations. (I'd probably go for a few impossible combinations of humans too, like humans with greenish skin and green eyes. Just to remind people that fantasy humans are not real-world humans.)

But I am specifically looking for Shou humans here, and people related to them. (I figure that Shou humans in a multiverse full of other Asian-looking humans is like having tinker gnomes that trace their ancestry back to Krynn, vs other gnomes, who could be from anywhere.)

I'll probably try to estimate how many non-Shou Asian-ish humans would be in Shou town on Bral, at some point. I figure that, if you mostly use the same weapons and eat a lot of the same food, the Shou Barrio would be a good place to buy 95 percent of the specialist items you need.

But, I'd like to go back and search for canon, right now, so that I can extrapolate ideas from that.
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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by Big Mac »

GMWestermeyer wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:20 pm
night_druid wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:55 pm
For the most part, there really isn't much written about the Kara-Tur nations in spelljammer. I think Paul's article pretty much sums it up.
That was rather the point. :)


http://www.spelljammer.org/essays/flavo ... -Guide.pdf
Do you mind if I pump you for some information on your design choices for Oriental Adventures and Spelljammer:A Guide, so I can see where you were spinning your fanon information from, and where the canon ends?

One thing I'm trying to sort out is how long the Shou Lung dragonships have been going into Wildspace. You have 2312 / 1062 DR down as the date when Shou Lung and T'u Lung started to split. Have you got any data on When the Shou Lung were known to go into wildspace?

If we can establish that the Shou went into the Sea of Night before T'u Lung broke away, then that would imply that crews from the north and south could both be in wildspace on the day of the split.

Here is something you said on page 5:
Oriental Adventures and Spelljammer:A Guide wrote:The sections in SJR2 Realmspaceon Kara-tur were perhaps the worst researched sections of a very poorly researched book. The headquarters of the Shou Lung fleet according to SJR2 is Chumning, for instance. That is quite a coup, considering that Chumning is actually in T’uLung, Shou Lung's archrival! With that in mind, much of that material had to be severely altered below.
Chumning might not be such a problem, for the location of the Shou Lung Fleet, if we were looking at a historical unified Shou Lung, from before the split.

I can imagine a Ben Kenobi solution that would actually make this fun.

If the Shou Lung have been travelling to the Sea of Night for hundreds or thousands of years, I can imagine a situation where the southern states fail to recognise the same emperor as the northern states and there is suddenly a massive tactical advantage in Chumning.

If Shin Lu can command the dragonships, he would be able to put down the southern nobles and capture Shin Gisen.

And if Shin Gisen can command the dragonships, he can use them to protect the south and deliver armies that can capture land in the north, so that T'u Lung can win against Shin Lu and unify the country.

So here is the fun thing. You have a dragonship commander in Chumning and a messenger rides in with a sealed message telling him that the nation is divided over which son should rule Shou Lung and demanding that he recognises one side or the other. Now that commander actually has three choices:
  • Order the Shou spacefarers to side with Shin Ginsen,
  • Order the Shou spacefarers to side with Shin Lu or
  • Order the Shou spacefarers to leave the planet immediately, so they do not get dragged into the war.
Now I kind of like the vibe of the third option, as I think it would tie in well with the idea of a lot of Shou ships breaking away from control of the emperor. And sending all the ships off world, would deny both warring brothers the option of using spelljamming ships to bomb each other's allies.

And an abandoned dragonship construction facility in Chumning, that has not been used since T'u Lung was founded seems like a fun way to give T'u Lung the potential to have a future role in wildspace.
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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by Big Mac »

ruedas15 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:17 am
So effectively what is known is yet to be written?


Excellent.
There certainly is a lot of potential. :D

But I don't want to make a bunch of stuff and then find out that I've reinvented something in a Forgotten Realms book. That would be a bit frustrating for me.
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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by Big Mac »

Right. Lets see if I can turn up anything for these eight Forgotten Realms Shou-towns:
Big Mac wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:00 pm
There is actually a Shou-town article on Forgotten Realms Wiki. It's a disambiguation page (a page to point people at one of several articles about Shou-towns). Sadly all the articles it currently points to are redlinks (except for the article on Bral's Shou-Town):
  • Shou-town (Bral)
  • Shou-town (Chavyondat)
  • Shou-town (Eversult)
  • Shou-town (Marsember)
  • Shou-town (Phsant)
  • Shou-town (Sheirtalar)
  • Shou-town (Telflamm)
  • Shou-town (Tharsult)
  • Shou-town (Westgate)
I checked out the Chavyondat article, and that pointed me straight a Wizards of the Coast Realms article, called: Class Chronnicles - Eastern Classes. The entire article is worth a read, but here is the meaty bit that relates to T'u Lung characters being found in Shou Towns:
Eytan Bernstein at the Wizards.com website wrote:Eastern Classes in the Realms

The Eastern-themed classes of the Complete series and Oriental Adventures sometimes seem at odds with the pseudo-medieval and renaissance feeling of the Realms, but they do offer options for those that wish to expand their games to include an Asian feel. With the exception of the spirit shaman, all of the other classes come to Faerûn by way of the East. The majority of characters with levels in these classes are from the massive continent of Kara-Tur. Kara-Tur consists of a number of provinces that have similar cultures to real world nations: Shou Lung (China), T'u Lung (China), Wa (Japan), Kozakura (Japan), Tabot (Tibet), Koryo (Korea), Ra-Khati (Nepal), Bawa (Taiwan), the Horse Plains (Mongolia), Malatra (Laos, Cambodia, Singapore, Malaysia, and Vietnam), and a number of smaller nations and principalities. Individuals from these nations -- most commonly the Shou and T'u -- have settled along the Golden Way, an enormous length of road running from Telflamm all the way to Shou Lung. They have set up Shou Towns, small enclaves with Eastern architecture, customs, and organizations. Through the settlement of citizens of these nations, Kara-Turan cultures and classes have spread to the Unapproachable East and the rest of the Realms.
So this specifically says that people from Shou Lung and T'u Lung, as well as from Wa, Kozakura, Tabot, Koryo, Ra-Khati, Bawam, the Horse Plains*, Malatra, and a number of smaller nations, have settled along the Golden Way.

* = That's the Hordelands.

And it calls out "Show Towns" as the name of the small enclaves they live in.
Eytan Bernstein at the Wizards.com website wrote:While the majority of characters with these classes are Kara-Turan, the Eastern schools do occasionally accept Western students. In addition, individual Kara-Turan mercenaries and ronin occasionally venture into Faerûn. Sometimes this is to make a name for themselves, but in other instances, these individuals leave to escape angered patrons or bounty hunters. They often ally themselves with Westerners, who in turn, sometimes acquire levels in Eastern classes.
Well this thing seems less useful to me, but what it does mean is that at T'u Lung NPC, who rises to power outside of Kara-Tur, might hire some Faerûnian NPCs to work for him. (And that means that a Shou Dragonship that had a lizardman warrior dressed in Asian-style armour would still be appropriate.
Eytan Bernstein at the Wizards.com website wrote:Spirit shamans are unique among the classes presented in that they do not originate in Kara-Tur. The spirit shamanic tradition arose in Rashemen, a land of great splendor and full of nature spirits. It is also found in Osse, a region of ancient aboriginal people with strong connections to their land and ancestors.
This makes me wonder why spirit shamen are mentioned here, but the Spirit Shamen section below does say that spirit folk in Kara-Tur (and only spirit folk) are sometimes spirit shamen.
Eytan Bernstein at the Wizards.com website wrote:Shou Towns

Small Shou Towns and enclaves have sprung up in a number of major metropolitan areas in the Realms. These are somewhat akin to real-word Chinatowns, but perhaps smaller and more insular. The most well known of these is found in Elversult, but there are enclaves or embassies in Zindalankh (Murghôm), Shussel (Unther -- the newest of the established enclaves), Vaelen (Var the Golden), and Sheirtalar. The ever-enterprising Shou are also busy with intrigues behind the scenes to establish enclaves or embassies in Athkatla (Amn), Chavyondat (Estagund), and the island-nation of Tharsult (in the Shining Sea).
So this doesn't just list the enclaves. It also makes some older than others and some fairly recent.

This article might also be useful for people wanting to plonk a Shou Town down in Maztica or Zakhara.
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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by night_druid »

Big Mac wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:39 pm
One thing I'm trying to sort out is how long the Shou Lung dragonships have been going into Wildspace. You have 2312 / 1062 DR down as the date when Shou Lung and T'u Lung started to split. Have you got any data on When the Shou Lung were known to go into wildspace?
I don't think its every really been stated. I think Paul puts a date in his article but that's probably a best guess? I don't think it especially matters; its implied that Shou has been in space for a long time; likely long before the Shou/T'u split. Shou Lung has a long history and as relatively easy as it is to get ahold of helms (large, rich, stable nation with a passion for astronomy? Can't tell me the Arcane don't have a few permanent shops there), they probably been in space in some form since not long after the fall of Netheril or thereabouts :P
If Shin Lu can command the dragonships, he would be able to put down the southern nobles and capture Shin Gisen.

And if Shin Gisen can command the dragonships, he can use them to protect the south and deliver armies that can capture land in the north, so that T'u Lung can win against Shin Lu and unify the country.
I wouldn't overestimate the power of a dragonship, or spelljammers in general. They're relatively fragile craft with some tactical advantages, but vulnerable all the same. I think the Monarch's Mordent is a _really_ good example of a spelljammer in war. It provided good tactical support in a trio of battles, scattering humanoids, but ultimately was unable to turn the tide of war and was destroyed by a single axe-blow causing spelljammer shock. Same with dragonships; likely a few were employed in the civil war, but ultimately proved ineffectual in the long term after being bombarded with long-range spells and artillery. After a handful were shot down, the costs were deemed too high to throw away the few spelljammers they had left in a civil war that had already been decided, that sort of thing. I know Paul has "lulls" in Shou spelljammer activity as well, which may very well have accounted for limited use of spelljammers in the Shou civil war.
And an abandoned dragonship construction facility in Chumning, that has not been used since T'u Lung was founded seems like a fun way to give T'u Lung the potential to have a future role in wildspace.
If you want T'u Lung to have spelljammers, give them spelljammers. They don't even need Chumming to be a port. Just have an Arcane show up with a half dozen funny thrones, talk to the emperor, and BAM! Instant spelljammer fleet. Or they find some long lost cache of helms from an earlier time, with instructions on how to build dragonships. Or find some scrolls with "create helm" spells on them. Or some pesky adventurers show up with a load of helms they acquired from the Sea of Sorrows and want to make a fast fortune.
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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by night_druid »

Big Mac wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:00 pm
But I'm kind of looking for canon, from Kara-Tur sources, and even secondary canon, from Forgotten Realms sources, that says anything about Shou people outside Kara-Tur.
I think Paul's article pretty much covers everything SJ related, at least. Anything else is likely 3e/4e sources, and I'm fairly sure he skips those sources ;)
There is actually a Shou-town article on Forgotten Realms Wiki. It's a disambiguation page (a page to point people at one of several articles about Shou-towns). Sadly all the articles it currently points to are redlinks (except for the article on Bral's Shou-Town):
Ah, those are from non-SJ sources. I know in some 3e or 4e novel they put some portal to Kara-Tur in the Sea of Fallen Stars so they could justify putting "shou towns" all around the area. Didn't even cross my mind as the subject was related to SJ.
Maybe I can get a general idea of if these towns are supposed to be representative of the Shou Lung governement (the way that Thayan Enclaves are supposed to legally be part of Thay) or if they are just areas built up around the import of goods from Shou Lung, via the Silk Road.
They're not administered by Shou Lung, IIRC. They're more ethnic districts from settlers who immigrated out of Shou Lung, I believe. Probably most are descendants of merchants who regularly trade with the west.
I don't recall any mention of Wa in the Rock of Bral book. I think that might have been a later addition in the War Captain's Companion. So maybe there should be some Wa spies on Bral who might pass as Shou to many of the spacefarers on Bral (especially if they used some sort of disguise to appear less Wa-like and more Shou-like).
Rock of Bral was published a year after Realmspace. Wa became a spacefairing power in Realmspace, but was limited to six tsunami. However, the summary of the Rock of Bral was published in the SJ Boxed Set, which predated Realmspace & Wa being in space, so there was no "Wa Town".
I definitely want to build up a list of Asian nations in other crystal spheres. I think that, in order for things to be believable, you need various human races and subraces of demi-humans to be found in multiple places. (Maybe not every sphere would have Asian-style humans. I probably wouldn't put anything that didn't have a Greek connection into Greatspace.) But I do think there should be countless Asian-like humans, with a bunch of different (probably non-statistical) variations. (I'd probably go for a few impossible combinations of humans too, like humans with greenish skin and green eyes. Just to remind people that fantasy humans are not real-world humans.)
Paul pretty much summaries the asian-inspired nations in space as far as those from official campaign settings. Part of me wishes Kara-Tur was never attached to an individual setting, and instead was its own world (and sphere).
I'll probably try to estimate how many non-Shou Asian-ish humans would be in Shou town on Bral, at some point. I figure that, if you mostly use the same weapons and eat a lot of the same food, the Shou Barrio would be a good place to buy 95 percent of the specialist items you need.
Shou Town is not big. Probably hundreds at most.
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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by night_druid »

BTW, some fandom I've done for Asian-themed cultures in space include the city of Kame-ban, some ship designs in Hackjammer, the entirety of the Radiant Empire, and the spelljammer race Honin. I love adding OA stuff to Spelljammer :)
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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by The Dark »

As far as rogue dragonships go, Shing Jaw-long is one of the Corsair Council of Hawa in Corsairs of the Great Sea, due to his dragonship's utility to the corsairs. He's a 10th-level Wu Jen who overthrew his captain and went rogue. They avoid the eastern coast of Zakhara so that they aren't spotted by Shou vessels.

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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by Big Mac »

I just found out there is a Shou district, called Xiousing in Marsember in Cormyr, Faerûn.

I'm not sure why this is called a "Shou district" instead of a "Shou town", but the article about Xiousing links to a number of Shou organisations a places in the district, that someone might want to reboot and use in the Sea of Night or beyond.
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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by GMWestermeyer »

Big Mac wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:39 pm
GMWestermeyer wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:20 pm
night_druid wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:55 pm
For the most part, there really isn't much written about the Kara-Tur nations in spelljammer. I think Paul's article pretty much sums it up.
That was rather the point. :)


http://www.spelljammer.org/essays/flavo ... -Guide.pdf
Do you mind if I pump you for some information on your design choices for Oriental Adventures and Spelljammer:A Guide, so I can see where you were spinning your fanon information from, and where the canon ends?
Okay, but there is actually relatively little 'fanon' and most of that is in the Kara-tur section. There are logical extrapolations but very little that is truly 'non-canon'. For example, the part you mentioned about the neogi is 'non-canon', it's simply canon presented in a different way. We know the neogi & other pirates sometimes raid Toril and we know Tu Lung is chaotic and disorganized. The sentances just makes that canon statement clearly and links the two facts.

Regardless, there are extensive notes, citations and a bibliography. But sure, I'll try to answer some questions.
Big Mac wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:39 pm
One thing I'm trying to sort out is how long the Shou Lung dragonships have been going into Wildspace. You have 2312 / 1062 DR down as the date when Shou Lung and T'u Lung started to split. Have you got any data on When the Shou Lung were known to go into wildspace?
Yes, it's in the document and in my SJ timeline. We have a couple different dates.

We have this, on the date the Dock was founded:
c4742
[SJ] *The Dock in the Wu Pi Te Shao mountains is founded by the Arcane. (1060 DR / 2310 Shou)
{SJR2 Realmspace, p21} (1060 DR / 2310 Shou)
The * indicates the exact date may be off the but the general chronology is correct.

The first Shou interest in Spelljammer is indicated here:
4964
[SJ/KT] The fifth Emperor Chin (later given the deific name Ch’uan) of Shou Lung observes the Spelljammer and orders his servants to acquire it for him. {Legend of the Spelljammer: Legends and More, pp. 5-6, OA3 Ochimo: The Spirit Warrior, p. 5} (1282 DR / 2532 Shou)
Well after the Tu Lung split. I mentioned the founding of the Dock because it indicates that contact between the Arcane and the Shou would have followed this interest and instructions. Like with actual Chinese maritime exploration, Shou Spelljamming interests ebbs and flows.

First dragonship mention is here:
4995
[SJ/KT] The Shou Lung empire on Toril dispatches one of its first dragonships to establish diplomatic relations with other planets. It is attacked and destroyed by illithids a week after leaving Toril, the IEN discovers the wrecked dragonship and rescues it sole survivor. (1313 DR / 2563 Shou)
{Heart of the Enemy, p12}
Most likely, the Shou explored via junks for a while before developing purpose-built spelljammers aka dragonships.
Big Mac wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:39 pm
If we can establish that the Shou went into the Sea of Night before T'u Lung broke away, then that would imply that crews from the north and south could both be in wildspace on the day of the split.
As you can see, we can't. Individual Shou may have been in space already, as you can see form the founding of The Dock.
Big Mac wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:39 pm
Here is something you said on page 5:
Oriental Adventures and Spelljammer:A Guide wrote:The sections in SJR2 Realmspaceon Kara-tur were perhaps the worst researched sections of a very poorly researched book. The headquarters of the Shou Lung fleet according to SJR2 is Chumning, for instance. That is quite a coup, considering that Chumning is actually in T’uLung, Shou Lung's archrival! With that in mind, much of that material had to be severely altered below.
Chumning might not be such a problem, for the location of the Shou Lung Fleet, if we were looking at a historical unified Shou Lung, from before the split.
But we aren't. I actually explored this thoroughly before writing the Guide, and my original Realmspace Updates, trying to figure out if the mistake could be attributed to anything other then poor research and poor attention to detail. No dice, saqdly.
Big Mac wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:39 pm
If Shin Lu can command the dragonships, he would be able to put down the southern nobles and capture Shin Gisen.
Nightdruid is spot on regarding the impact of Spelljamming vessels on warfare.

You are free to do whatever you wish, obviously. :) But in canon, they just don't really vibe, I'm sorry. :)

My OA/SJ guide is different from my previous works, since it contains a great deal of material I 'made up' most of that material is, like i said, in the Kara-tur section. It should be easy to figure what is what, simply compare to SJR2, War captain's companion, and the Kara-tur boxed set.

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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by GMWestermeyer »

The Dark wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 12:40 am
As far as rogue dragonships go, Shing Jaw-long is one of the Corsair Council of Hawa in Corsairs of the Great Sea, due to his dragonship's utility to the corsairs. He's a 10th-level Wu Jen who overthrew his captain and went rogue. They avoid the eastern coast of Zakhara so that they aren't spotted by Shou vessels.
I had missed that, thank you, i've added entries for this guy and his ship into the 2.0 SJ timeline. :)

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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by GMWestermeyer »

Big Mac wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:00 pm
But I'm kind of looking for canon, from Kara-Tur sources, and even secondary canon, from Forgotten Realms sources, that says anything about Shou people outside Kara-Tur.
A couple novels that concern Shou outside Kara-tur:

The Veiled Dragon, by Troy Denning (paperback, April 1996, ISBN 978-0-7869-0482-2)
The Yellow Silk, by Don Bassingthwaite (paperback, February 2004, ISBN 978-0-7869-3152-1)

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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by Cromstar »

Big Mac wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:00 pm

I would also like to get a general idea if "Shou-town" is literally supposed to be a town full of people from Shou Lung, or if it is a generic term that people in Faerûn use for people who might also hail from other Kara-Tur lands.
I'd draw from real world history here. Usually, the term Chinatown meant an area that was settled by a large group or groups of ethinic Chinese, but occasionally was applied to pan-Asian or mixed-Asian populations. It was relatively rare, but not without precedent, for an area dominated by another Asian ethnic group to be labeled as a Chinatown.

It would be reasonable to infer that Shou Towns are predominantly Shou, and that the name would be different if a discrete enclave of another Kara-tur ethnicity popped up somewhere (ie, Watown or Little Uwaji).

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Re: [Realmspace][Kara-Tur] How does Shou Lung expansion into Wildspace play with T'u Lung

Post by ruedas15 »

Big Mac wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:58 pm
ruedas15 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:17 am
So effectively what is known is yet to be written?


Excellent.
There certainly is a lot of potential. :D

But I don't want to make a bunch of stuff and then find out that I've reinvented something in a Forgotten Realms book. That would be a bit frustrating for me.
But if you do it better?

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