Spells > 9th?

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Seethyr
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Spells > 9th?

Post by Seethyr »

In the Forgotten Realms a very specific event (Karsus’Folly) marked the time where tenth level spells and above could no longer be cast by mortal beings.

Does every world have a similar event or are there spheres out there where higher level spells are still available?

Even if the answer to that is yes, is it just coincidence that almost all known spheres restrict to 9?

Could a caster from Toril learn spells of higher level if they travel beyond the sphere? What about the phlogiston? I’ve never heard of any tenth level spells being cast their and yet Mystra’s ban wouldn’t make sense to extend so far?

If these questions have no answers canonically, could you maybe posit a logical reasoning?
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Re: Spells > 9th?

Post by night_druid »

There are no canon spheres where spells greater than 9th level are available. 10th level and above spells were pretty unique to Realmspace (and Netheril in particular), barring perhaps the 3e Epic Level Handbook (which I cannot speak to). Spheres are mostly limited to 9th level spells because the rules are limited to 9th level.

From the nature of 11th level spells, it can be assumed that 11th level spells can be cast in other spheres and the phlogiston.

Now, as for a logical, in-game reason, I guess, barring the Netheril magic, there are hard limits on mortal magic. To be honest, its the Netheril boxed set that throws a monkey wrench into the mix. Everything else is pretty compatible and agree that 9th level spells are about the max, barring a few rare 10th level exceptions.
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Re: Spells > 9th?

Post by Lord Torath »

Dark Sun has 10th level spells (at least in 2nd Edition), but those are psionic enchantments, requiring a psionically-trained mind to cast. Plus its crystal sphere is inaccessible due to its location in a far-out-of-the-way part of the Phlo.
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Re: Spells > 9th?

Post by Seethyr »

It’s aggravating when a singular product or two try to modify 40 years of established canon. It makes it really hard for people who believe in a singular interconnected multiverse like I do.

I guess a solution would be to claim that the tenth, eleventh and twelfth level spells were unique to Realmspace (and Dark Sun as mentioned above) but Mystra eventually brought us in line with the rest of the Prime.
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Re: Spells > 9th?

Post by MagusZeal »

Dungeon Master Option - High Level Players for 2nd Edition has magic past 9th level, wasn't assigned a spell level but it was classified as True Dweomers, pg 119. Was less a spell list and more how to build stupidly powerful spells and than try to balance the requirements for casting by using rare components, magic items, or even yourself as fuel for them. In general they worked anywhere except Dragonlance due to the fact the setting would downgrade you to a max of 13th or 14th level when you entered.

Beyond that like others have said most other settings never had a super mage event where magic was locked away.

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Re: Spells > 9th?

Post by Big Mac »

There is a topic, called: 10th-12th level spells, in the Arcane Age forum. I've made a list of these high level spells, that people might want to consult.
Seethyr wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:03 pm
In the Forgotten Realms a very specific event (Karsus’Folly) marked the time where tenth level spells and above could no longer be cast by mortal beings.

Does every world have a similar event or are there spheres out there where higher level spells are still available?
In Dragonlance history you have the "Magic Defends Itself" thing, where the three Moons of Magic summoned three spellcasters and got them to set up the Orders of High Sorcery. So you could argue that those gods dealt with the problem a long time before it was dealt with on Toril.

And in Greyhawk you have the Twin Cataclysms, where two super-strong nations of spellcasters destroyed each other.

Neither of those things is exactly the same as Karsus's Folly, but they are comparabile, in different ways.

Dragonlance also has the Cataclysm, where the Kingpriest also tries to steal the power of a god. In that case, he doesn't choose a god of magic and an asteroid lands on his head and destroys Istar.

So, do we have evidence of "dangerously powerful magic" in other worlds in the Spelljammer universe. I say "yes".
Seethyr wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:03 pm
Even if the answer to that is yes, is it just coincidence that almost all known spheres restrict to 9?
We are playing a game. The rules of the game give players spells up to 9th level.

Things like the story of Netheril, are just stories based on the idea of what would happen if people could cast spells above 9th level.
Seethyr wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:03 pm
Could a caster from Toril learn spells of higher level if they travel beyond the sphere?
Well, that is an interesting question.

Mystra erased the 10th level and above spells from the minds of every spellcaster on Toril, and erased the spells from all spellbooks.

We do know that the deities in certain crystal spheres can do things differently. In Dragonlance (and therefore Krynnspace) the elves were not created by elven gods, the dwarves were not made by dwarven gods, etc. So if you have people that look exactly like elves (and are elves) but are not actually related to elves in other parts of the D&D multiverse, they don't have to work exactly the same way.

Therefore I would argue that the gods of Realmspace are able to impose limits on the mortals there...if they want to.

Older versions of D&D used to have racial limits. Those limits would have made it impossible for certain races to cast 10th level spells.

If you want to use this sort of restriction, you can.
Seethyr wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:03 pm
What about the phlogiston? I’ve never heard of any tenth level spells being cast their and yet Mystra’s ban wouldn’t make sense to extend so far?
Actually, Netheril: Empire of Magic, specifically mentions spelljamming, and states that the Netherese explored Wildspace.

And there is a specific reversable 11th level spell called Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere / Proctiv's Seal Crystal Sphere.

Proctiv's Seal Crystal Sphere makes it impossible for anyone to open portals in a crystal sphere.

Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere does the opposite and changes a sealed crystal sphere to allow portals to be created.

The spell description of Proctiv's spell do not say that they only work on the Realmspace crystal sphere, so the reversable spell should work on all crystal spheres. And it doesn't say anything about not working in the phlogiston, so it must work on both the inside and outside of the crystal sphere.

There is also a 10th level spell, called Valdick's Spheresail, that specifically works in the phlogiston. It actually uses a different power source in the phlogiston and in wildspace. So if any ships that have been enchanted with Spheresail still exist, they could be restricted inside Realmspace, but work faster in the phlogistion. (Having said that, if Mystra wanted to nerf the ship, she could permanently hobble it, when it comes within her reach.)
Seethyr wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:03 pm
If these questions have no answers canonically, could you maybe posit a logical reasoning?
3rd Edition D&D replaced 10th level and higher spells with Epic Spells. They did the same thing, in different ways.

They existed in Forgotten Realms and in core rulebooks. And with core 3e rulebooks being associated with Greyhawk, I would (by extension) argue that Epic Spells are known about in Greyspace (as well as Realmspace).

The Orders of High Sorcery have people who hunt down dangerous renegades, so I'd be inclined to believe that they would try to hunt down people using Epic Spells in Krynnspace (assuming the renegade wasn't powerful enough to blast the Wizards of High Sorcery out of existence).

Having said that, Dragonlance has Flying Citadels, and they are comparable to the floating cities raised up into the sky by the 10th level Proctiv's Move Mountain spell.

And, as I said before, The Kingpriest was trying to do the exact same thing that the spell Karsus's Avatar does.

So, there is certainly enough to go on with rules for Epic Level spells, that are the modern version of High Level spells.

And if you want to cast those spells as high level spells, the process is quite clear:
  • Travel back in time,
  • Learn the 10th or 11th level spell (Karsus's Avatar isn't available, as it gets destroyed when it is tested) and
  • Cast that spell.
From what I remember of the time travel rules in the Netheri: Emprire of Magic, you can only go back for one year, so you would have to research the spell very quickly.

I believe that one of the Netherese spells had a material component that was part of a Tarrasque, so you would presumably need to go to the planet Falx to hunt a few Tarrasques. :lol:
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Re: Spells > 9th?

Post by thorr-kan »

We discussed this a little bit over at Dragonsfoot a few years ago: True Dweomers vs Psionic Enhancements vs Quest Spells:
https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/view ... =2&t=69413

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Re: Spells > 9th?

Post by Khedrac »

Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:11 pm
3rd Edition D&D replaced 10th level and higher spells with Epic Spells. They did the same thing, in different ways.
Not really replaced, but added as a way to do similar things. 3rd actually gives access to 10th and higher spell slots, but it is for metamagic versions of normal spells (something else 3rd introduced) and not 10th+ or epic spells as they are sitll blocked.

I think some "spells" have both 10+ and epic versions, but I am not sure.
Create Mythal was 10th level in 2nd Ed and I think it is an epic spell in 3rd, but it may also be a blocked 10th spell in 3rd...
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Re: Spells > 9th?

Post by Jaid »

for clarity: 3rd introduced a new form of metamagic, but it did not introduce metamagic. my 2nd edition PHB has a few examples of metamagic *spells* in it, for example, which is how metamagic used to work back in the day. I don't think we got metamagic items until one of the handbooks (the only one I can particularly recall in item form is extend duration)

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Re: Spells > 9th?

Post by talsine »

Khedrac wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:30 pm
Big Mac wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:11 pm
3rd Edition D&D replaced 10th level and higher spells with Epic Spells. They did the same thing, in different ways.
Not really replaced, but added as a way to do similar things. 3rd actually gives access to 10th and higher spell slots, but it is for metamagic versions of normal spells (something else 3rd introduced) and not 10th+ or epic spells as they are sitll blocked.

I think some "spells" have both 10+ and epic versions, but I am not sure.
Create Mythal was 10th level in 2nd Ed and I think it is an epic spell in 3rd, but it may also be a blocked 10th spell in 3rd...
There were Epic Spells that were inspired by normal 1 to 9 spells, but they were still their own thing. Opening up the 10+ slots just let you do stupid things like quicken-twin'd Haste. the EPH was broken. Along with all of the math. 4E was the only iteration of D&D that handles those levels well.

Though i guess i should give the Immortal box sets credit, they are pretty good too, but they are really more their own game then an extension of D&D

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