Thanks. I've added links to these to the top post.
There's some discussion of a port in the Grinder called Shatterport here
I'm not quite sure (from a moderator point of view) to do about this. With The Grinder having 200 large bodies (as well as a much larger number of small bodies) we could theoretically build up tons and tons of Greyspace fanon built entirely around the asteroids and planetoids of The Grinder. For now, I've split the Shatterport discussion off into a thread called [Greyspace] Shatterport
Shatterport sounds interesting. I'd like to know more about it.
ripvanwormer wrote:I do prefer Greyspace to be geocentric. It's one of the things that make the sphere special, and I don't see the point in making the sphere more mundane. Ditto with the spherical Grinder. Why would you want to take such a unique-looking sphere and make it look like all the others?
I agree with this totally. I think that all crystal spheres should have a feeling of "uniqueness", where they almost play like different campaign settings*. Geocentric systems and The Grinder are two of the ace cards of Adventures in Space, and throwing those cards in, without good cause, is a waste of Jeff Grubb's work.
* = By this I mean that spheres should have a difference from "core Spelljammer" in the same way that Kara-Tur is different from "core Forgotten Realms" and Taladas is different from "core Dragonlance". The contact by inter-sphere travellers would probably dilute down the insular society of intra-sphere natives, but the local groups should be something that a GM can use to "sell" the sphere as special.
However, there are people who do not like Greyspace to be geocentric. IIRC, Night Druid was working on a solar-centric reboot of Greyspace. There is no reason why that sort of thing could not be presented as an "Alternate Greyspace" (along with any other ideas by GMs who dislike the canon version). Anyone disliking the canon version could swap it for a fanon alternative, and I think there would be little to no "damage" to the rest of the SJ universe.
ripvanwormer wrote:I don't see anything wrong with adding moons to a sphere, though; that doesn't seem any more of a change from canon that "additional astronomicals" are. I wouldn't turn any of the existing planets into moons; I'd rather invent some new ones, since there are a number of niches in the system that aren't filled.
My personal take on this, is that we have a ton of Celestians travelling around their home sphere. If we add stuff, then I need to be sold (from an out-of-character) point of view that the changes are actually necessary and sold (from an in-character) on "the reason why nobody would have noticed this before".
I actually see The Grinder as the biggest opportunity that Spelljammer canon gives us for sandboxing. We have 200 large planetoids and an uncountable number of smaller ones making up a unique environment that splits the inner sphere and outer world from each other.
We have the Horgs, and an opportunity for pirates to attack people who try to sneak through The Grinder. We have the option to give every known SJ faction a base of operations in The Grinder, as well as the option to hide every sneaky faction or somewhere. As well as sentient critters, we could even position almost every monster (except the Contellates) somewhere in The Grinder. So when people say that there is not enough going on in Greyspace, I would argue that The Grinder, alone, could almost be its own campaign setting.
In the rest of the sphere, I would generally like to see more development of surface areas on worlds like The Spectre and Ginsel, instead of creation of moons around them.
That doesn't mean I'll be totally opposed to seeing other stuff done in Greyspace. I just think that we need to spend a lot of effort sandboxing The Grinder and the worlds, so I would personally rather see people do more work there.
On the "additional astronomical" thing, I think I should have been more clear. A lot of SJ ships need a gravity plane, like the one found on The Rock of Bral. So I think that having a small "captured asteroid", a crown station or a similar object, is a way to allow those ships to indirectly interact with worlds that would otherwise be cut off. Adding a moon, instead of an asteroid, adds another object that those ships can not land on, so the extra work needed to create that new stuff doesn't necessarily make the sphere more "accessable" to spacefarers.
But all of this is just my opinion. This is a YMMV thing.
The biggest problem with Greyspace is how far away Kule and Raenei are from Oerth. They'd look like tiny little specks, rather than moons, but they're obviously meant to look like moons. Liga is too small/far away as well. There's some discussion of this here
. Unless you assume fantasy physics make objects recede less in the distance than they do in our universe, this is a seriously broken part of Spelljammer canon. This site
struggles to more seriously calculate the distances and relative sizes of Luna and Celene.
Most of that is based on tides. And both of these links have people who have tossed SJ canon because they don't like "fantasy physics". I dispair whenever I see the term "fantasy physics" mentioned, because there is invariably a conversation where people bash SJ worlds for not obeying Newton's Laws of Gravity. We alredy know that Spelljammer does not obey the laws of real science, because Jeff Grubb showed us that it did not in the Adventures in Space
What is wrong, is that the moon sizes are don't fit with the distances. With your suggestion we have three options:
- Move the moons closer to Oerth,
- Make the moons bigger or
- Make objects in space (at least in Greyspace) appear to be larger than they are.
ripvanwormer wrote:Here is some discussion
of Greyhawk's solar system by a group of people who don't know anything about the Spelljammer material, and would probably bludgeon you to death with morning stars if you tried to bring it up. Interesting discussion, nonetheless. It points out that ERB's Barsoom was part of Gary Gygax's campaign from the beginning, and probably deserves some kind of representation in Greyspace (although, it's not absolutely necessary; it's part of the background of Erac's Cousin, but nothing demands he traveled to another world in Greyspace - I might be tempted to put him in Athas instead). Jack Vance's novel The Blue World
might be a good inspiration for Conatha; I'll have to finish reading it first.
The Blue World is a great book. I would like to see it get its own crystal sphere (Vancespace?) instead of get robbed to fill up Greyspace.
Gary Gygax had several alternative Oerths, and it might be good to have a long look at Barsoom to see if it should be placed into that sort of context. IIRC, someone has tried to knock up a version of the real-life solar system** that has Barsoom in it. Maybe that could be turned into Gary G.'s Barsoom.
** = Actually, I've seen about two or three of these solar-system clones started.