Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

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Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by Big Mac » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:06 pm

I just noticed we don't have a thread for Greyspace yet, so thought I would correct that. This thread is part of an attempt to have general threads for every Spelljammer crystal sphere.

This first post is going to include basic information about the crystal sphere as well as some useful Greyspace links.

CELESTIAL BODIES OF GREYSPACE:
  • Oerth*
  • Liga (aka The Sun)
  • The Grinder
    • Ceres (aka "the Pup")
    • Khadazah ("Motherlode")
    • Lassh'tz Zst'q ("We Are Here" aka Swamp, Cenerea "Fetid Place" or Harkalopenarigastinoven "Do-Not-Go-Here-Or-You-Will-Most-Probably-Find-Yourself-Eaten-In-Short-Order")
    • Reaper (aka "the Graveyard" or Charnelhouse)
    • Shatterport (fanon created by ripvanwormer)
    • Skullbringer
    • unnamed now uninhabited beholder asteroid
    • unnamed now uninhabited second beholder asteroid
    • unnamed asteroid that crashed into Reaper when it was inhabited
    • unnamed Elven Navy outpost asteroid
  • Edill
  • Gnibile
  • Conatha
  • Ginsel
  • Borka
    • "the Egg"
    • Potemkiz
  • Greela
    • Cenalterian ("Forest of the Stars")
    • Frontier (human nation occupying two major and several minor asteroids)
  • The Spectre (The Wink)
    • Olarius**
* = Oerth is the system primary, which means the other planets orbit around Oerth. Technically Oerth's moons are actually two of its planets and its sun is also technically one of its planets. Locals define a planet as anything that orbits outside the sun and a moon as anything that orbits inside the sun.

** = From The War Captains Companion.

ADDITIONAL ASTRONOMICALS OF GREYSPACE: SPACEFARING COMPANIES OF GREYSPACE:
  • The Black Company
  • The Free Traders
  • The Peacock Band
  • The Sentinels
  • The Free Neogi**
  • The Scavver-Breeders**
** = From The War Captains Companion.

OTHER USEFUL GREYSPACE THREADS: USEFUL GREYSPACE LINKS: This post will be edited when we get more Greyspace links - specifically, the planet names and company names will be turned into links if we create threads for them.

LAST EDIT (by Big Mac) 1 Nov 2016: Link to Anti-Liga topic added to Celestial Bodies of Greyspace section.
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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by Big Mac » Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:08 pm

OK, now we have the linky bit out of the way, what do people think of Greyspace? Does it live up to its potential or would you like to see more done with it?

I know that I for one would love to see more asteroids developed for The Grinder.
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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by night_druid » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:53 pm

Big Mac wrote:OK, now we have the linky bit out of the way, what do people think of Greyspace? Does it live up to its potential or would you like to see more done with it?

I know that I for one would love to see more asteroids developed for The Grinder.
Its one of the better sphere guides in that it has a good number of interesting places to visit and has enough "low danger" areas to support actual trade (Realmspace's primary fault; beholder/illithid planets don't scream 'trade hub' to me). Between individual asteroids of the Grinder, Greela, and Ginsel, there's plenty of ports of call. There's also adventure opportunities in Gnibile, Borka, & the Spectre.

Now, where it falls apart for me. One, its too big. I think it should be much smaller, on the order of the outer planets out about 20 SJD. There's a definate lack of moons; I think I'd take some of the planets and make them moons; in fact, I'd take Cornatha, Ginsel, Borka, & Greela all and make the moons of Edill & Gnibile. Borka & Greela need to be much closer together, to make the orc threat closer to the elves there.

I'd probably ditch the geocentric nature of the sphere & make it standard. I'd also lose the "new" names for Oerth's moons. Its confusing. The Grinder would probably be an asteroid belt, with some asteroids having very eccentric orbits. Maybe add one more planet to the inner solar system; I'd probably use Raenei for this purpose & create a new Luna (or whichever moon that was).
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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by Azaghal » Thu May 27, 2010 6:14 pm

night_druid wrote:
Big Mac wrote:OK, now we have the linky bit out of the way, what do people think of Greyspace? Does it live up to its potential or would you like to see more done with it?

I know that I for one would love to see more asteroids developed for The Grinder.
Its one of the better sphere guides in that it has a good number of interesting places to visit and has enough "low danger" areas to support actual trade (Realmspace's primary fault; beholder/illithid planets don't scream 'trade hub' to me). Between individual asteroids of the Grinder, Greela, and Ginsel, there's plenty of ports of call. There's also adventure opportunities in Gnibile, Borka, & the Spectre.

Now, where it falls apart for me. One, its too big. I think it should be much smaller, on the order of the outer planets out about 20 SJD. There's a definate lack of moons; I think I'd take some of the planets and make them moons; in fact, I'd take Cornatha, Ginsel, Borka, & Greela all and make the moons of Edill & Gnibile. Borka & Greela need to be much closer together, to make the orc threat closer to the elves there.

I'd probably ditch the geocentric nature of the sphere & make it standard. I'd also lose the "new" names for Oerth's moons. Its confusing. The Grinder would probably be an asteroid belt, with some asteroids having very eccentric orbits. Maybe add one more planet to the inner solar system; I'd probably use Raenei for this purpose & create a new Luna (or whichever moon that was).
That's one way to do it, however we blow cannon out of space doing it this way. :lol: I like it though.

MODERATOR NOTE (by Big Mac): Arken's original post and the other replies relating to his map split off into a new thread called: TSR didn't make a Greyspace map, but I did.
Arken wrote:Hi there folks!

For long time I've wondered why TSR didn't made a map for Greyspace. Very interesting as it is one of the most busiest sphere. So finally i did it myself, and i would like to share it with anyone who like spelljammer.
The map is made in the original TSR postermap size, it is in LZW compressed TIF format in RGB and in CMYK colors, ready to print if anyone would like it for him/herself. (I will do it this week in a print office:)

Here you find the links to download it (i leave it here for some time):

for RGB (appr. 10 MB): http://www.szeg.org.hu/greyspace_postermap_RGB.rar
for CMYK (appr. 40MB): http://www.szeg.org.hu/greyspace_postermap_CMYK.rar

If you like it, use it for anything you want it to use :) and spread it wherever you want. I hope it will find the way to spelljammer fans.

bye,
Arken
Hi Arken, I gotta check these out! Thanks!
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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by Big Mac » Thu May 27, 2010 6:53 pm

Somehow I managed to miss this. :?
night_druid wrote:
Big Mac wrote:OK, now we have the linky bit out of the way, what do people think of Greyspace? Does it live up to its potential or would you like to see more done with it?

I know that I for one would love to see more asteroids developed for The Grinder.
Its one of the better sphere guides in that it has a good number of interesting places to visit and has enough "low danger" areas to support actual trade (Realmspace's primary fault; beholder/illithid planets don't scream 'trade hub' to me). Between individual asteroids of the Grinder, Greela, and Ginsel, there's plenty of ports of call. There's also adventure opportunities in Gnibile, Borka, & the Spectre.
All true!
night_druid wrote:Now, where it falls apart for me. One, its too big. I think it should be much smaller, on the order of the outer planets out about 20 SJD. There's a definate lack of moons; I think I'd take some of the planets and make them moons; in fact, I'd take Cornatha, Ginsel, Borka, & Greela all and make the moons of Edill & Gnibile. Borka & Greela need to be much closer together, to make the orc threat closer to the elves there.
I think I would rather "fill in the gaps" than change existing features.

Adding moons seems somehow wrong, but I wouldn't mind seeing some additional astronomicals (especially outside the orbit of the outermost world).

I think that a Crown Station would be appropriate for the area nearish to Borka. IIRC, the elves are supposed to have developed world shattering magic (during the First Unhuman War) and then were supposed to have been destroyed themselves. So it might be nice to "destroy" the crown station. Perhaps a (long dead) whichlight marauder would be an appropriate way to both add, and remove, a station.
night_druid wrote:I'd probably ditch the geocentric nature of the sphere & make it standard. I'd also lose the "new" names for Oerth's moons. Its confusing. The Grinder would probably be an asteroid belt, with some asteroids having very eccentric orbits. Maybe add one more planet to the inner solar system; I'd probably use Raenei for this purpose & create a new Luna (or whichever moon that was).
Hmm. I quite like the geocentric thing, although I believe it annoys some Greyhawk fans. And a sphere of asteroids really makes this planetary system special. It is a much more "realistic" control mechanism than the "spacefarers and groundlings don't get along" thing.

I would like to see something done with "anti-liga" (in the history).
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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by rol-oeste » Thu May 27, 2010 9:01 pm

Big Mac, in your first post "The Sisters" is missing.

rol-oeste :-)

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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by Big Mac » Sun May 30, 2010 10:14 pm

rol-oeste wrote:Big Mac, in your first post "The Sisters" is missing.

rol-oeste :-)
Thanks, rol-oeste.

I actually missed all the additional astronomicals. :oops: I've added them in now.
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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by Big Mac » Sun May 30, 2010 10:39 pm

Link to ripvanwormer's Edill thread added to first post. Sorry for not adding it earlier. :oops:
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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by ripvanwormer » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:08 am

I wrote a history of Greyspace here.

Here's a thread on Conatha.

There's some discussion of a port in the Grinder called Shatterport here.

I do prefer Greyspace to be geocentric. It's one of the things that make the sphere special, and I don't see the point in making the sphere more mundane. Ditto with the spherical Grinder. Why would you want to take such a unique-looking sphere and make it look like all the others?

I don't see anything wrong with adding moons to a sphere, though; that doesn't seem any more of a change from canon that "additional astronomicals" are. I wouldn't turn any of the existing planets into moons; I'd rather invent some new ones, since there are a number of niches in the system that aren't filled.

The biggest problem with Greyspace is how far away Kule and Raenei are from Oerth. They'd look like tiny little specks, rather than moons, but they're obviously meant to look like moons. Liga is too small/far away as well. There's some discussion of this here. Unless you assume fantasy physics make objects recede less in the distance than they do in our universe, this is a seriously broken part of Spelljammer canon. This site struggles to more seriously calculate the distances and relative sizes of Luna and Celene.

Here is some discussion of Greyhawk's solar system by a group of people who don't know anything about the Spelljammer material, and would probably bludgeon you to death with morning stars if you tried to bring it up. Interesting discussion, nonetheless. It points out that ERB's Barsoom was part of Gary Gygax's campaign from the beginning, and probably deserves some kind of representation in Greyspace (although, it's not absolutely necessary; it's part of the background of Erac's Cousin, but nothing demands he traveled to another world in Greyspace - I might be tempted to put him in Athas instead). Jack Vance's novel The Blue World might be a good inspiration for Conatha; I'll have to finish reading it first.

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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by Big Mac » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:00 pm

ripvanwormer wrote:I wrote a history of Greyspace here.

Here's a thread on Conatha.
Thanks. I've added links to these to the top post.
ripvanwormer wrote:There's some discussion of a port in the Grinder called Shatterport here.
I'm not quite sure (from a moderator point of view) to do about this. With The Grinder having 200 large bodies (as well as a much larger number of small bodies) we could theoretically build up tons and tons of Greyspace fanon built entirely around the asteroids and planetoids of The Grinder. For now, I've split the Shatterport discussion off into a thread called [Greyspace] Shatterport.

Shatterport sounds interesting. I'd like to know more about it.
ripvanwormer wrote:I do prefer Greyspace to be geocentric. It's one of the things that make the sphere special, and I don't see the point in making the sphere more mundane. Ditto with the spherical Grinder. Why would you want to take such a unique-looking sphere and make it look like all the others?
I agree with this totally. I think that all crystal spheres should have a feeling of "uniqueness", where they almost play like different campaign settings*. Geocentric systems and The Grinder are two of the ace cards of Adventures in Space, and throwing those cards in, without good cause, is a waste of Jeff Grubb's work.

* = By this I mean that spheres should have a difference from "core Spelljammer" in the same way that Kara-Tur is different from "core Forgotten Realms" and Taladas is different from "core Dragonlance". The contact by inter-sphere travellers would probably dilute down the insular society of intra-sphere natives, but the local groups should be something that a GM can use to "sell" the sphere as special.

However, there are people who do not like Greyspace to be geocentric. IIRC, Night Druid was working on a solar-centric reboot of Greyspace. There is no reason why that sort of thing could not be presented as an "Alternate Greyspace" (along with any other ideas by GMs who dislike the canon version). Anyone disliking the canon version could swap it for a fanon alternative, and I think there would be little to no "damage" to the rest of the SJ universe.
ripvanwormer wrote:I don't see anything wrong with adding moons to a sphere, though; that doesn't seem any more of a change from canon that "additional astronomicals" are. I wouldn't turn any of the existing planets into moons; I'd rather invent some new ones, since there are a number of niches in the system that aren't filled.
My personal take on this, is that we have a ton of Celestians travelling around their home sphere. If we add stuff, then I need to be sold (from an out-of-character) point of view that the changes are actually necessary and sold (from an in-character) on "the reason why nobody would have noticed this before".

I actually see The Grinder as the biggest opportunity that Spelljammer canon gives us for sandboxing. We have 200 large planetoids and an uncountable number of smaller ones making up a unique environment that splits the inner sphere and outer world from each other.
We have the Horgs, and an opportunity for pirates to attack people who try to sneak through The Grinder. We have the option to give every known SJ faction a base of operations in The Grinder, as well as the option to hide every sneaky faction or somewhere. As well as sentient critters, we could even position almost every monster (except the Contellates) somewhere in The Grinder. So when people say that there is not enough going on in Greyspace, I would argue that The Grinder, alone, could almost be its own campaign setting.

In the rest of the sphere, I would generally like to see more development of surface areas on worlds like The Spectre and Ginsel, instead of creation of moons around them.

That doesn't mean I'll be totally opposed to seeing other stuff done in Greyspace. I just think that we need to spend a lot of effort sandboxing The Grinder and the worlds, so I would personally rather see people do more work there.

On the "additional astronomical" thing, I think I should have been more clear. A lot of SJ ships need a gravity plane, like the one found on The Rock of Bral. So I think that having a small "captured asteroid", a crown station or a similar object, is a way to allow those ships to indirectly interact with worlds that would otherwise be cut off. Adding a moon, instead of an asteroid, adds another object that those ships can not land on, so the extra work needed to create that new stuff doesn't necessarily make the sphere more "accessable" to spacefarers.

But all of this is just my opinion. This is a YMMV thing.
ripvanwormer wrote:The biggest problem with Greyspace is how far away Kule and Raenei are from Oerth. They'd look like tiny little specks, rather than moons, but they're obviously meant to look like moons. Liga is too small/far away as well. There's some discussion of this here. Unless you assume fantasy physics make objects recede less in the distance than they do in our universe, this is a seriously broken part of Spelljammer canon. This site struggles to more seriously calculate the distances and relative sizes of Luna and Celene.
Most of that is based on tides. And both of these links have people who have tossed SJ canon because they don't like "fantasy physics". I dispair whenever I see the term "fantasy physics" mentioned, because there is invariably a conversation where people bash SJ worlds for not obeying Newton's Laws of Gravity. We alredy know that Spelljammer does not obey the laws of real science, because Jeff Grubb showed us that it did not in the Adventures in Space boxed set.

What is wrong, is that the moon sizes are don't fit with the distances. With your suggestion we have three options:
  • Move the moons closer to Oerth,
  • Make the moons bigger or
  • Make objects in space (at least in Greyspace) appear to be larger than they are.
ripvanwormer wrote:Here is some discussion of Greyhawk's solar system by a group of people who don't know anything about the Spelljammer material, and would probably bludgeon you to death with morning stars if you tried to bring it up. Interesting discussion, nonetheless. It points out that ERB's Barsoom was part of Gary Gygax's campaign from the beginning, and probably deserves some kind of representation in Greyspace (although, it's not absolutely necessary; it's part of the background of Erac's Cousin, but nothing demands he traveled to another world in Greyspace - I might be tempted to put him in Athas instead). Jack Vance's novel The Blue World might be a good inspiration for Conatha; I'll have to finish reading it first.
The Blue World is a great book. I would like to see it get its own crystal sphere (Vancespace?) instead of get robbed to fill up Greyspace.

Gary Gygax had several alternative Oerths, and it might be good to have a long look at Barsoom to see if it should be placed into that sort of context. IIRC, someone has tried to knock up a version of the real-life solar system** that has Barsoom in it. Maybe that could be turned into Gary G.'s Barsoom.

** = Actually, I've seen about two or three of these solar-system clones started.
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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by Azaghal » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:54 am

If we take a look back to the original books, the old "brown books" which is definitely the origins of Greyhawk. Those books had plenty of Barsoomian creatures in them. I would not be at all far fetched to have either alternate Oerthspaces of a Barsoomian planet.
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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by Big Mac » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:43 pm

MODERATOR NOTE (by Big Mac): Posts about Kule split into a new thread called: Kule (aka Celene or The Handmaiden). Link to thread for Kule added to Celestial Bodies of Greyspace section of the top post.

MODERATOR NOTE (by Big Mac): Arken's original post and the other replies relating to his map split off into a new thread called: TSR didn't make a Greyspace map, but I did. Link to thread about Arken's Greyspace map added to Other Useful Greyspace Threads section of the top post.
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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by Big Mac » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:03 am

LINKS EDIT: Unnamed Elven Navy outpost asteroid (from Scenario 1 on page 82-82 of SJR6 Greyspace) added to Celestial Bodies of Greyspace section in top post.
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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by Sable Aradia » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:44 am

I think that a Crown Station would be appropriate for the area nearish to Borka. IIRC, the elves are supposed to have developed world shattering magic (during the First Unhuman War) and then were supposed to have been destroyed themselves. So it might be nice to "destroy" the crown station. Perhaps a (long dead) whichlight marauder would be an appropriate way to both add, and remove, a station.
David, damn you, now you've given me an idea. ;)

I think I'll be watching this closely; I'm about to take the Toy Soldier Saga into Greyspace for the Borka Maneuver. :D
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Re: Greyspace - the Greyhawk/Spelljammer crossover sphere

Post by Big Mac » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:50 am

LINKS EDIT: Link to Anti-Liga topic added to Celestial Bodies of Greyspace section in top post.
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