Gamaro Stats/Maps?

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kalos72
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Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by kalos72 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:19 pm

My group is looking for a huge mobile base of operations that can travel across the 3-5 systems around the Triad.

RAW doesnt really say much about large ships but Gamaro came up as an option. Anyone stat it out or do custom maps of the interior or anything?

What other kinds of large ship options are there or rules for them, homebrew is fine. Anything helps.

We did design a super heavy hammership but its not really the "HQ" type of size/power we are looking for. Its our first attempt... :)



Thanks!

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by Boneguard » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:55 pm

Leviathan could be an option.

IIRC Camaro was given a rough map in one of the 2 Book covering the Secon Inhuman War, but no stats per re.
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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by kalos72 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:28 pm

Like a Space Leviathan, thats imobile though right?

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by Boneguard » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:42 pm

Not if you shove a helm on or in it.

Same thing for Dwarven Citadel
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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by AuldDragon » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:41 pm

The only helms that can move something as large as a Citadel or Leviathan is a Forge Helm, and those need a ton of people working together (mostly dwarves or gnomes) to move, and they can't ever the Flow without exploding.

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by kalos72 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:46 pm

And I assumed from the module that Gamaro was bigger than 400 tons, could be wrong though.

Seems to be one of those not very well documented issues with Spelljammer... :(

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by Boneguard » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:46 pm

AuldDragon wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:41 pm
The only helms that can move something as large as a Citadel or Leviathan is a Forge Helm, and those need a tone of people working together (mostly dwarves or gnomes) to move, and they can't ever the Flow without exploding.

Jeff
I'll admit, it's not the most convenient type of helm, but it's still possible to put a helm on it and by mobile. Just get a crew of zombie or skeleton and you're good to go.
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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by kalos72 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:09 pm

Considering they were using a Witchlight, I was assuming I could use an Anti Furnace for it.

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by Halvor » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:34 am

There are some pretty big creatures in the game some of them can tow ships. Halvor's Really Cheap Spacedock is an asteroid littered with ships hulls that is pulled from sphere to sphere by a group of friendly critters that reside and maintain a nursery inside the asteroid.

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by Jaid » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:59 am

the astromundi cluster has a spacefaring nation capable of more or less infinitely linking major helms in series (possibly sold to them by the arcane) to enable superior tonnage.

there is a ship built and used by xorns, i think, which can link death helms in series for the same effect (the obvious drawback being that the death helms will kill you eventually). a brief internet search suggests it is called the stoneship, and that it can be found in "lost ships". we don't know what the maximum limit is, but we do know it can go up to at least 300 tons. it also has an elemental used as a power source as an option, which presumably also has at least a 300 ton option.

and of course, an artifurnace can do pretty much whatever you say it can do. you may be interested in what nightdruid did with lionheart here

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by The Dark » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:56 am

Goblins' Return page 22 says that Gamaro is 2500 feet long and 2000 feet wide. Heart of the Enemy page 81 says its air envelope is 7500 feet front to back and 1500 feet top to bottom, which implies it's 500 feet tall. That works out to approximately 925,000 tons using tons of 100 cubic yards (Spelljammer) or 2,500,000 tons using tons of 1000 cubic feet (Hackjammer).

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by The Dark » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:04 am

Boneguard wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:55 pm
Leviathan could be an option.

IIRC Camaro was given a rough map in one of the 2 Book covering the Secon Inhuman War, but no stats per re.
Heart of the Enemy only has a fragmentary map of two sections of the ship. Goblins' Return has a high-level map plus a half-dozen smaller maps of specific areas.

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by Big Mac » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:50 am

kalos72 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:46 pm
Seems to be one of those not very well documented issues with Spelljammer... :(
There are a lot of bits of scattered canon for Spelljammer.

Anything above the 100 tons range is tricky. Standard Major Helms will only shift 100 tons.

I did see something about a "Series Major Helm" somewhere, but there was no stats.

It might have been the same as the thing that Jaid saw.

If not, Series Helms link multiple helmsmen together and I would presume that a Series Major Helm would do the same thing as a standard Series Helm, but with double the tonnage of a standard Series Helm. I've got no idea what sort of SR you would be able to get.

We could quote the rules for similar helms and see if we could infer rules for a bigger helm. But I'm pretty sure that most of these things are supposed to have been lost before the First Unhuman War. Your PCs should not just be able to turn up the the Rock of Bral and buy one. They should have to go to a lot of effort to obtain an excessively large ship and then obtain a power source that will move it.
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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by kalos72 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:35 pm

Yeah, I am looking for those tidbits now.

But since the Scro seem to be able to get Gamaro moving with the Witchlight but I am not sure that works RAW wise. Considering the size, I would be ok with a "Series Major Helm" approach I guess.

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by AuldDragon » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:42 pm

There are lots of options to get objects greater than 100 tons to move, but very few of them allow Spelljamming speed and phlogiston movement, and very few of them are (or should be) open to PCs. Those open to PCs are essentially just ways to allow movement in tactical combat.

Series Major Helms are mentioned for the Zoocraft in the War Captain's Companion, and the Astromundi Cluster's Thoric Tradesman, but the latter is an exclusive Thoric secret and the former has no other mentions (series major helms are essentially the Crown Jewel of helmmaking, and IMO, should be myth rather than reality in any given campaign; they're too good otherwise). The Witchlight Marauder of the Gamaro Base is hooked up to a special modified lifejammer, but I don't recall there is any material indicating it can move at Spelljammer speed. Nonmagical engines have no listed size limit, but they can't travel at Spelljamming speeds either. Artifurnaces don't appear to have an upper limit either, but they require an actual artifact to operate, which isn't something you can just pop down to the local Arcane shop to buy.

If you just want your base to be able to maneuver a bit in a combat situation, nonmagical engines are what you want. If you want to travel to adventuring destinations with your whole base/ship larger than 100 tons, that would be entirely on your DM to provide a solution to with materials not really worked out in the canon, or not, as they wish (but I would recommend against it myself).

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by kalos72 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:10 pm

Yep, thats the dilemma.

The PC Group wants the Gamaro to move from system to system so a true helm is needed there. You are right I dont think the module specifies if it can or can't move out of the system.

Maybe I am stuck with smaller ships moving around while I establish "bases" in each of the system to HQ at? Since gate/teleports wont work from sphere to sphere I am stuck with moving product and people the old fashioned way I think.

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by Jaid » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:25 pm

nonmagical engines are actually capped at 100 tons in WCC as i recall. there's a table that lists possible tonnage, and iirc it has a limit for nonmagical engines.

that said, one of the books has rules for towing objects too large to move with a single helm, but again, that's at tactical speed. it would take months to get to a place that SJ speeds could get you in under 1 round (about 69,500 miles per round at SJ speeds... equivalent to SR 244,640 by some quick math, so about 170 days travel at SR 1 equals 1 minute of travel at spelljamming speed).

anyways, the series helms in astromundi cluster i was referring to were... antillans i think they're called? anyways, the big sun empire around the core of the system has the ability to link major helms to make giant superships (those ships may need to be made out of crystals). i was not referring to the thoric tradesman at all.

of course, given the nature of the astromundi cluster, even if you can find one and have the resources to use it, getting it out of the sphere is a whole different story :P

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by Lord Torath » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:51 pm

The Series Helms (not to be confused with Series Major Helm, like on the Zoo Craft) are only for use by Mind-Flayers. Each one adds 1 to your SR, up to a maximum of 5 (I think), and can move ships up to 50 tons. The Illithid Dreadnought uses a Pool Helm.

To get your Ginormous Mothership(TM), you're going to need to rely on DM Fiat. The other option is to take over the Spelljammer. But before you try, I'd recommend some serious research into the reasons no one comes back from it (Contact Other Plane? Commune?). With sufficient research, you could track down a helm seed. With sufficient planning, you could acquire the magical equipment needed, and a sufficient force to guard your ships, as well as defeat the Spelljammer's inhabitants. Plus, invest in some good bodyguards. You'll need them. Seriously.

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by Jaid » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:22 am

Lord Torath wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:51 pm
The Series Helms (not to be confused with Series Major Helm, like on the Zoo Craft) are only for use by Mind-Flayers. Each one adds 1 to your SR, up to a maximum of 5 (I think), and can move ships up to 50 tons. The Illithid Dreadnought uses a Pool Helm.

To get your Ginormous Mothership(TM), you're going to need to rely on DM Fiat. The other option is to take over the Spelljammer. But before you try, I'd recommend some serious research into the reasons no one comes back from it (Contact Other Plane? Commune?). With sufficient research, you could track down a helm seed. With sufficient planning, you could acquire the magical equipment needed, and a sufficient force to guard your ships, as well as defeat the Spelljammer's inhabitants. Plus, invest in some good bodyguards. You'll need them. Seriously.
sure. and the antillans (if i got the name right; again, it's the empire that is close to the sun) have a way to link major helms in a series to an absurdly high amount to power an absurdly large ship, in fact i believe there is no stated limit. granted, i dropped the "major" in that last post, but i said it in the previous one. they use these major helms in series to have gigantic crystal ships that nobody else can really compete with.

now, they get that technology from the arcane, and for all i know the arcane have to set the system up and that nation doesn't really understand how it works, they just get to be the ones that use it. but it is there.

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Re: Gamaro Stats/Maps?

Post by GMWestermeyer » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:55 pm

The answer is a unique artifact. I think one of the better SJ limitations is ships larger then 100 tons. Remember, we need to explain why spelljamming empires do not dominate all of the Prime.

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