Soliciting new ship ideas.

[Azaghal]

Big Mac and I have been having an epic conversation over on Facebook. (180+ posts so far) One of the subjects we have touched on is that we should be able to (The Piazza SJ group) come up with a variety of new/modified ship designs.

Also see Silverblade`s Hammership Art for some of the springboard to this. (sorry I can`t link right now, major power outage so all I have is my cell atm)

One of the points brought up in the Silverblade Hammership Art was that spacefarers are used to the "Grubbian gravity plane" and would build ships that take that into consideration. Big Mac was talking about the "Heavy Hammership" with bottom mounted weaponry. I belive 4e has a picture of a Gith warship with decks above and below. Ships meant to dock along the gravity plane of asteroids and not land on land or sea could easily have "top and bottom" decks and weaponry.

Greater warsphips would have no blind spot that way as well.

New ship types ideas: Clamshells, Long tubular shells, Elven Mother Tree ships, crystaline growth ships, Talislantian windships, larger ships 500-1000 tons.

[Jaid]

crazy thought: how about a 'star ship'?

ie 5 points to it, basically it would be a fortress, build with turreted weapons on each point. probably some kind of important structure in the middle.

(remember, no need to worry about aerodynamics if you don't have to turn to shoot people )

edit: and yes, i halfway want to do this for the pun.

[Azaghal]

crazy thought: how about a 'star ship'?

ie 5 points to it, basically it would be a fortress, build with turreted weapons on each point. probably some kind of important structure in the middle.

(remember, no need to worry about aerodynamics if you don't have to turn to shoot people )

edit: and yes, i halfway want to do this for the pun.

There is a "starfish" shaped race out there, this actually is a perfect idea. Perhaps a 15ton fighter a 60-75 ton cruiser and a 100+ ton battleship type.

[Big Mac]

I've said "Heavy Hammership" a couple of times instead of "Multiple Turrets". Some of the Heavy Hammerships actually have multiple turrets, just to add to the confusion. We could do with some additional names to distinguish between the single-sided and double-sided versions of these ships.

I've just had a thought!

The big problem with these double sided ships is that they can not land on the water, right?

So how about bolting together two flat bottomed ships and making a double sided ship that can separate into two ships!

It would look like just another double-sided ship, but could split in half during combat and throw different combat tactics at opposing ships. The element of surprise might be enough to allow the ship to trounce some opponents while they struggled to adjust their strategy. Once the ship was known, people would get used to it, and could work out how to fight it, but it could be a really fun concept for a new ship.

Another thing I think we should be doing is hunting for more groundling ships that can take the place of ships like longships. I know that these ships do not handle, very well, but they are a vital stepping stone for any groundling culture that gets into wildspace.

[Jaid]

actually, another interesting idea might be taking advantage of grubbian physics to have a round ship with no gravity plane, all gravity goes in towards the middle... so you could have weapons along every part of the ship. another interesting possibility might be to have it more cylindrical, and have the gravity all go towards a line down the center of the ship.

another wacky idea i've had that makes use of SJ physics would be to design a ship that fights with the top pointing towards their opponents. why, you ask? because if you feather fall an incoming boulder which is headed 'downwards' towards your ship deck, it will quite suddenly slow down, drift gently to the deck, and add to your ammunition stockpile oh, and on the opposite side (ie the one not facing your attacker) you have all the sails and stuff, so only weapons crew need to be on the dangerous side.

if i wanted to go *really* crazy with that idea, i'd probably make something shaped like the SDF-1 in terms of having towers coming out the 'top' which could have weapons much like the ones on the rock of bral (as i recall, something along the lines of heavy ballistas... except with massively boosted range, lower crew requirements, much faster reloading time, and they used the tower to house a gravity-powered mechanism that helped load the ballistas). a central deck (assuming this is a truly massive ship) could have a docking bay along the gravity plane that launches fighters. since it would be along the gravity plane, those fighters could also use double-sided ships. something like the human catamaran, only double-sided, would make an absolutely incredible fighter ship (as long as the carrier is larger than 10 tons, which it would almost have to be).

and of course, perhaps my simplest double sided ship is actually one where you have only one level, railings around the side on both sides of the deck, and both sides are used. i think i proposed this for a manta-type ship of some kind, but it could presumably work for other designs (a swallow would be my next inclination, since frankly manta rays seem to be used quite a bit already; my original thinking was to have the sails along the side actually be moved similar to how a manta ray moves, sort of a rippling effect though, which doesn't work quite as well for a bird, but i was thinking it could be used something like how big mac envisions the catamaran working).

[Elvith Jars]

While my game doesn't use Grubbian Physics, its effects are simulated via lots of rituals, which basically results in the same thing, so I can see hexagonal spelljammers with decks on each side of the hexagon, giving you full 360 degree coverage as one possibility.

I also envsion an orca with long flippers. One version carries several hull-seeking Arcane Rockets under its flippers and on its back (think of the raptor in BSG that nuked the cylons' home base in the season finale) and a large, rapid fire accelerator in the nose in addition to a broadside of ballistae. Despite its size (about 125 feet long and 20 feet wide), it is fairly maneuverable, and has an encounter power that lets it turn on a dime. It would be the spelljammer equivalent of the A-10 Warthog. Another variant mounts the giff bombard and a really big telescope into the airframe along with half the ballistae broadside, but it does away with the rockets and accelerator. This version of the orca is a sniper designed to hit targets at long range while staying out of range of the target's weapons. With its daily invisibility power, it can also serve as a scout for a fleet.

[Azaghal]

While my game doesn't use Grubbian Physics, its effects are simulated via lots of rituals, which basically results in the same thing, so I can see hexagonal spelljammers with decks on each side of the hexagon, giving you full 360 degree coverage as one possibility.

I also envsion an orca with long flippers. One version carries several hull-seeking Arcane Rockets under its flippers and on its back (think of the raptor in BSG that nuked the cylons' home base in the season finale) and a large, rapid fire accelerator in the nose in addition to a broadside of ballistae. Despite its size (about 125 feet long and 20 feet wide), it is fairly maneuverable, and has an encounter power that lets it turn on a dime. It would be the spelljammer equivalent of the A-10 Warthog. Another variant mounts the giff bombard and a really big telescope into the airframe along with half the ballistae broadside, but it does away with the rockets and accelerator. This version of the orca is a sniper designed to hit targets at long range while staying out of range of the target's weapons. With its daily invisibility power, it can also serve as a scout for a fleet.

I love the idea of a Warthog style Spelljammer, I helped to playtest the final version of "Air Strike" the ground attack supplement for "Air Superiority" re-released as "The Speed of Heat" in the early 90's. One of the primary playtesters was a former F-15 pilot and he also has flown the A-10. He told us when the main gun is fired the plane basically hovers instead of diving, that's how strong the recoil is. Anyway love the idea.

So how about bolting together two flat bottomed ships and making a double sided ship that can separate into two ships!

The "starship" could separate into 5 parts If it was done as a living ship could it become 5 ships?

[Elvith Jars]

Glad you like.

Thinking in 4e terms (I haven't touched 2e in years), I can see standard actions for the orca like:

Backflip * Encounter, Move
The ship suddenly twists and turns to face a new direction.
Effect: You can change the ship's facing to any direction desired without traveling forward first.
Special: If you combine this maneuver with the Arcane Missile Massacre, then your ship will spin a 360 and perform a close burst 1 area attack.

(Ranged) Accelerator * At-will, Arcane, Firing Arc Fwd
A ball of iron shoots out the barrel and pounds the target.
Attack: Ranged (one target) 20/40; +Int vs AC
Hit: 3d6 + 4 damage
Special: If Iron Rain has been used in a previous round, this power cannot be used until Iron Rain recharges.

(Ranged) Iron Rain * Recharge 6, Arcane, Firing Arc Fwd
Brrraaappp! A hailstorm of iron balls shoots out the barrel and pounds the target.
Attack: Ranged (one target) 20/40; +Int vs AC
Hit: (3d6 + 4) x 10 damage
Special: The Accelerator power cannot be used until this power recharges; by expending an Encounter power with the Arcane keyword, this power automatically recharges.

(Ranged) Arcane Rockets * At-will, Arcane, Firing Arc 360
A pair of rockets leave a trail of smoke as they streak towards destiny.
Attack: Ranged (one target) 30/60; +Int vs AC
Hit: (3d10 + 6) x 2 damage
Special: This power may only be used 12 times during combat.

(Ranged) Arcane Missile Massacre * Daily, Arcane, Firing Arc 360
You blast an area with your load of arcane rockets.
Attack: Ranged (burst 1) 30/60; +Int vs AC
Hit: (3d10 + 6) x [(12 - Special) x 2] damage
Special: Reduce the damage multiplier by the number of times you've made an Arcane Rocket attack during the encounter; you cannot use the Arcane Rocket attack for the rest of the day.

[Azaghal]

I want to retcon the Arcane Rockets to 2e. As far as the accelerator, the round fired by the Warthog main gun is the size of a 1 liter bottle. A slug that size would be awesome! I like the grapeshot from the accelarator too! Cool stuff.

[Big Mac]

There are six flying ships in the Talislanta campaign setting that you may be able to raid for your Spelljammer game.

See the Flying Ships thread in our (brand new) Talislanta forum.

[Azaghal]

I know! :d Also Mystara has flying ships. Another really untapped source could be Edgar Rice Burroughs John Carter of Mars series, the ships ranged from personal 1 man to huge battleships lifted by buoyancy tanks and driven by propellers. Clearly no Spelljaming speed but they could be very useful.

[Dave L]

I know! :d Also Mystara has flying ships. Another really untapped source could be Edgar Rice Burroughs John Carter of Mars series, the ships ranged from personal 1 man to huge battleships lifted by buoyancy tanks and driven by propellers. Clearly no Spelljaming speed but they could be very useful.

I understand they are making a movie based on the John Carter novels.

My son is looking to go to university in 15 months time, and at the open day they showed a video of ex-graduates.
One said he was being employed on the production team for this project, which was one of the few things that caught my attention from the whole day!

[Azaghal]

I know! :d Also Mystara has flying ships. Another really untapped source could be Edgar Rice Burroughs John Carter of Mars series, the ships ranged from personal 1 man to huge battleships lifted by buoyancy tanks and driven by propellers. Clearly no Spelljaming speed but they could be very useful.

I understand they are making a movie based on the John Carter novels.

My son is looking to go to university in 15 months time, and at the open day they showed a video of ex-graduates.
One said he was being employed on the production team for this project, which was one of the few things that caught my attention from the whole day!

.My Google-fu has been very weak today, yes there is a move upcoming also there may be a d20 gamebook out there, I`ve caught references but nothing direct for it.

[Big Mac]

New ship types ideas: Clamshells, Long tubular shells, Elven Mother Tree ships, crystaline growth ships, Talislantian windships, larger ships 500-1000 tons.

I just noticed the 500-1,000 ton bit. Do bear in mind that Spelljammer (as originally written) is designed for much smaller ships than that. The tonnage limits are 50 tons for a minor helm and 100 tons for a major helm. So these sort of ships would be epic.

The Spelljammer itself, is 1,500,000 tons. So there is a place for epic ships, but the 200 ton ships in Lost Ships are said to have "unknown" power sources. I think that has been covered now (series major helms, IIRC), but I do think that anything of the 500-1,000 ton scale should be a one-off ship.

Having said that, you might want to check out War of the Burning Sky, as that has a large ship in it.

[Azaghal]

New ship types ideas: Clamshells, Long tubular shells, Elven Mother Tree ships, crystaline growth ships, Talislantian windships, larger ships 500-1000 tons.

I just noticed the 500-1,000 ton bit. Do bear in mind that Spelljammer (as originally written) is designed for much smaller ships than that. The tonnage limits are 50 tons for a minor helm and 100 tons for a major helm. So these sort of ships would be epic.

The Spelljammer itself, is 1,500,000 tons. So there is a place for epic ships, but the 200 ton ships in Lost Ships are said to have "unknown" power sources. I think that has been covered now (series major helms, IIRC), but I do think that anything of the 500-1,000 ton scale should be a one-off ship.

Having said that, you might want to check out War of the Burning Sky, as that has a large ship in it.

With the 500+ range I was thinking something along the line of the Elven Mother Tree ship which is mentioned in the monsterous appendix regarding the Starfly tree plant. (tonnage is not mentioned) I see the large ships as perhaps something built in a different age using higher level spells. (Arcane Age, hint, hint)

Buring Sky is over on Enworld right?

[Azaghal]

Just ran into Broadsides http://www.lionerampant.com/li/products_broadsides.asp a d20 product meant for sea travel, however it also has flying ships.

[Big Mac]

New ship types ideas: Clamshells, Long tubular shells, Elven Mother Tree ships, crystaline growth ships, Talislantian windships, larger ships 500-1000 tons.

I just noticed the 500-1,000 ton bit. Do bear in mind that Spelljammer (as originally written) is designed for much smaller ships than that. The tonnage limits are 50 tons for a minor helm and 100 tons for a major helm. So these sort of ships would be epic.

The Spelljammer itself, is 1,500,000 tons. So there is a place for epic ships, but the 200 ton ships in Lost Ships are said to have "unknown" power sources. I think that has been covered now (series major helms, IIRC), but I do think that anything of the 500-1,000 ton scale should be a one-off ship.

Having said that, you might want to check out War of the Burning Sky, as that has a large ship in it.

With the 500+ range I was thinking something along the line of the Elven Mother Tree ship which is mentioned in the monsterous appendix regarding the Starfly tree plant. (tonnage is not mentioned) I see the large ships as perhaps something built in a different age using higher level spells. (Arcane Age, hint, hint)

The link to elven ships is established on the Starfly Plant page, but the concept of an "Elven Mother Tree ship" (no name is given on the page) is only suggested as a rumour:

It is rumored that elven wizards have used secret spells to mount special helms into mother-trees for use as spelljammers. The rumor says that the giant trees will cuceed the armadas as the mainstays of the elven space fleet. As yet the fumor remains unproven, but rivals of the elves would pay a great deal to anyone who can confirm it.

The seed is 1,000 feet when its leaves fall off and it enters the second stage of its life. At this stage it has moved the comet it hijacked close to a sun and become large enough to generate its own gravity plane. The gravity plane attracts rocks and debris and it starts to grow a dense cluster of leaves. It can even turn into a liveworld.

I'm not sure that latter stage of life would be that useful as a ship. I think the elves have the right idea in heading that part of the starfly plant's lifecycle and making it keep its wings.

But, what you do have here (with the endgame) is a self-constructing space station!

Buring Sky is over on Enworld right?

Yep. ENWorld is crawling at the moment, so I can't find the link. It started off as a 3e thing and I think they converted to 4e.

You can download War of the Burning Sky Campaign Guide (d20) PDF for free from Paizo. That should give you an idea of how it works. The first adventure is also free.

[Big Mac]

Just ran into Broadsides http://www.lionerampant.com/li/products_broadsides.asp a d20 product meant for sea travel, however it also has flying ships.

That link isn't working for me, for some reason.

[Azaghal]

Just ran into Broadsides http://www.lionerampant.com/li/products_broadsides.asp a d20 product meant for sea travel, however it also has flying ships.

That link isn't working for me, for some reason.

Maybe I copied it wrong, try d20 Broadsides in a search engine should also work, I`m borrowing a copy to look at right now.

[vladimirheraldsson]

Good Morning from the east coast!
In my SJ campaign, ships are catagorized as Flow, System, and Groundling. Flow ships are what you're describing as a "double" Hammership or an excellent example from the SJ is the Gith Pirate clipper. When designing ships that were "topped out" for MC the top/bottom decks duplicated weapons, masts, etc. The real design problem/feature is the rigging. On the Vodoni ships mast and sail can rotate 360 degrees if needed resulting in wonderful MC, but a mystery to duplicate or explain. The solution is a capstan/winching system (crew served like on Black Pearl and Davy Jones's ship) direct shafted like a Model T's steering system (ie, using Roman flour mill tech) below the 2nd deck, or "center" deck for the double hammership. The reason for this placement is the decks aren't just holding the mast in place, but are roller bearing points! Crew requirements 4/6/8 (depending on vessel size) with STR of 19-20 (IE Werewolves, Ogres, Trolls, Oh My!). Shearing attacks made with purpose built ships like the Scro Mantis would not "spin the winch" due to the cutting action, but a "blunt" impact would! As this would be "normal" damage, you now have the reasoning behind the Vodoni use of werewolves!

[vladimirheraldsson]

Elven Armadas in my SJ campaign are catagorized as Flow: Monarch Armada, Archaic Man o' War; System: Armada, Man o' War,Swan ship, Hammership. The Monarch was discontinued when it was realized that a mid wing/gravity plane design would allow both top and bottom of the wings (1/3 of surface area the rest is MC IE flaps) to carry 80 Flitters and dock eel, One eyed Guppy supply ships. Flow Aramadas typically have 5 to 15 decks and, are "Epic ships". Think CV-2 Lexington with C-1s (twin engined supply plane, ideally equal to a wreckboat) but great to send a party in a wreckboat on special missions with. The "living" nature of the ship (plus some gardens for an ecosystem) provides fresh air AND water for six month deployments into the flow. When 4 or more Men o' war attached as a battle group screen. You now have the reason why "finding" Elven Spheres/systems is so difficult!

[multizar]

When a friend and I played Spelljammer years and years ago...we had a modified hammership that had a huge biting jaw It was a great white. A piercing ram would jut out of the mouth and the jaws would clamp shut on the enemy ship. All of the art and maps we had for it were lost years ago. If I remember...it had a ballista for and aft and covered decks.

[Azaghal]

vladimirheraldsson Welcome to the Piazza and those are some great ideas, thank you!

Multizar, Jaws the Hammership! Gotta love it!

[vladimirheraldsson]

Thank you Azaghal It's wonderful to be here!

Multizar- awesome a ship that exemplifies its name! Which is a better than one group of players of mine did! Take a moment to envision a hammership under attack by no less than Realmspace's Batship! The Mages/Druids onboard thinking themselves high enough in level to over come its reflection defense. Decided to cast all their disintegrate/warp wood spells together! It is unkown if the Batship departed because of the two disintegrate spells that hit, or the sudden curling and twisting of their hammerships tail from the reflected warp wood spells!!! Tail fin horizontal, extending just past the aft catapult, and resting on it!!! Later repairs to recover lost MC included a Nautiliod spanker sail and custom made larger front fins, the aft catapult and tower was disassembled. The aft catapult was installed on top the tail (no protection) and timber supports arrange to give spellcasters 75% cover. During contagious giggle fits between players and characters the ship was rechristened the "SpellSlammer" The ability for water landings wasn't restored.

[vladimirheraldsson]

My Apologies Big Mac if this quote thing doesn't work right.

The big problem with these double sided ships is that they can not land on the water, right?

So how about bolting together two flat bottomed ships and making a double sided ship that can separate into two ships!

It would look like just another double-sided ship, but could split in half during combat and throw different combat tactics at opposing ships. The element of surprise might be enough to allow the ship to trounce some opponents while they struggled to adjust their strategy. Once the ship was known, people would get used to it, and could work out how to fight it, but it could be a really fun concept for a new ship.

The rigging requirements for such an arrangement would be storm lines (8" rope) Fore and Aft x Port and Starboard (4 lines), plus an "X" on both sides formed by running the line from "Top" ship Fore (port/Starboard) to "Bottom" ship Aft, and from "top" ship Aft (Port/Starboard) to "Bottom" ship Fore (total 4 lines). Three bumpers made of sailcloth and straw positioned fore, amidships, and aft. Its one way for adventures to bring back prizes, but would make cargo hauling to asteroids more efficient (if both top/bottom of wharves are used). Experienced crews could lash them together in 4hrs. Also reduces crew costs for spellcasters (IE 2 per ship-vice 3or 4, rotating keeps the combined ships at sj speeds 24 hrs/day, with a spare for "emergencies"), decreases the area a convoy is spread out over making escorting easier, and less lost to piracy/war. Which is something every guild/trading company wants. Primary use would be between moons, asteroids, and military bases. The real rethink is with mapping out asteroids, with the dwellings on "Top" with the lakes, trees,etc on the "bottom"!