Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

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Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by GMWestermeyer » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:28 am

If moderators could sticky this for a while I'd love it. :)

I will soon be working on revising, again, my Spelljammer timeline. The current version is available on Beyond the Moons:

http://www.spelljammer.org/essays/histo ... eline.html

I'm planning to add dates for Mystara and Garweeze Wurld (Hackjammer) as well as getting dates that I somehow missed the first time around from Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance. I'm also interested in dates from Planescape (which i'm not overly familiar with) or generic products.

I follow these guideleines when choosing events:
This is not a comprehensive history of all of TSR's campaign settings. It only includes events listed in Spelljammer products, or events that had a global significance. Faerun's Time of Troubles and Krynn's Cataclysm are prime examples of the sort of non-Spelljammer related events that were considered influential enough to be included.
But I try to include any events which are Spelljammer, space, or magical flight related. :)

Basically, anyone who wants to point me in the direction of suitable dates I might otherwise miss would be welcome. :)

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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Jaid » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:41 am

strictly speaking, the cataclysm on krynn and the time of troubles on faerun *are* mentioned in spelljammer products :P

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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Big Mac » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:10 am

GMWestermeyer wrote:If moderators could sticky this for a while I'd love it. :)
MODERATOR NOTE (by Big Mac): Stickied, as per request. Please poke us when v2 is ready, so that this can be unstickied again.
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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Big Mac » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:11 am

Jaid wrote:strictly speaking, the cataclysm on krynn and the time of troubles on faerun *are* mentioned in spelljammer products :P
Have you got product names and page numbers for those facts?
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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Big Mac » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:49 am

GMWestermeyer wrote:I will soon be working on revising, again, my Spelljammer timeline. The current version is available on Beyond the Moons:

http://www.spelljammer.org/essays/histo ... eline.html
My (partially complete) Beyond the Moons/Index page may be of some use (specifically finding page numbers).
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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Jaid » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:35 am

Big Mac wrote:
Jaid wrote:strictly speaking, the cataclysm on krynn and the time of troubles on faerun *are* mentioned in spelljammer products :P
Have you got product names and page numbers for those facts?
oh my. you *are* a demanding taskmaster. i'll see what i can dig up for you :P

edit: krynnspace, 81 (the gods of krynnspace):

"One of the latest instances of the gods thoroughly
meddling in the affairs of men was the Cataclysm.
The Kingpriest of lstar called down the wrath of the
gods upon Krynn, the jewel of the sphere. During
this time, the gods disciplined the people for their
pride. This punishment took the form of a great
mountain crashing down upon the ground, causing
tremendous death and destruction."

realmspace, introduction (i want to call it page 4? 5?)

"During the Time of Trouble, no spelljamming
ships were able to pass through the sphere. The
Powers’ fall caused the loss of portal creation.
During that time, the Wanderers were free of
their curse, and their chanting stopped. Closed
lips meant closed portals."

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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Big Mac » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:49 am

Jaid wrote:oh my. you *are* a demanding taskmaster. i'll see what i can dig up for you :P
Thanks Jaid! :cool:
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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Big Mac » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:53 am

It might be worth reviewing PHBR8 The Complete Book of Elves (specifically the Elves of the Worlds section in Chapter Two) and WGR2 Treasures of Greyhawk (specifically The Neogi Nest).
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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Big Mac » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:54 am

Possible errors in your existing timeline:
4920
[DL] A spelljammer vessel visits the gnomes of Mount Nevermind on Krynn. Mount Nevermind receives other such visits over time, becoming one of Krynn's spelljamming ports. (235 AC)
{Beyond the Moons, pp138, 140}
Shouldn't that be listed as [SJ] (or at least [SJ/DL}) as it is from Beyond the Moons and I've not seen it mentioned in a non-SJ product?
[SJ] The first year for the Jammers PBEM game.
I'll be using Jammers, as background material, in any game I run, but shouldn't that entry be flagged differently from canon SJ material? "[JAM]" perhaps?

"Current year for..."

You have no actual or implied year for The Legend of Spelljammer boxed set, SJR3 Dungeon Master's Screen (not sure if it has any facts in it) or SJR8 Space Lairs.

The same applies to non-RPG products (novels, comics and the computer game).
[SJ] Current year of the War Captain's Companion Boxed Set.
This seems to be the only boxed set that has "Boxed Set" in the name.
[SJ/DL] A dying Reigar adventuress passes the Cloak of the First Pilot to Teldin Moore of Krynn. Teldin Moore is destined to become the Cloakmaster. (358 AC)
{Beyond the Moons}
Perhaps add something along the lines of: "Following a space battle with three neogi deathspiders, the PENUMBRA crash lands in the Dargaard Valley area of Krynn." to the begining of that and something along the lines of: "The neogi hire human mercenaries to recover the cloak." to the end.

I've got the name of the reigar (Captain Hemar) and the neogi boss (Nyeasta), if that helps.
5042
[SJ] The neogi Skarkesh discovers the Cloak of the First Pilot. It is stolen from him by a reigar adventuress. Skarkesh's neogi servants attempt to turn him into a Great Old One but he escapes and transforms himself into a Neogi Lich instead. Skarkesh's former servants abandon the hunt for Skarkesh and instead hunt the Cloak of the First Pilot themselves.
{The Maelstrom's Eye, p 276}
Are you certain on that page number? I make that the scene where the Fal is talking to Teldin about the cloak, but didn't see Skarkesh mentioned. There is some back story on how the reigar (Captain Halev) obtained the cloak that Skarkesh discovered in Chapter Four of The Maelstrom's Eye (most notable is that it was frozen in a block of ice, on a sunless asteroid, when it was discovered). I believe you have missed out a neogi middleman (a captain) who stole the block of ice from Skarkesh, before the reigar Captain Halev got hold of it and fled in the Penumbra.

One of the latter novels (probably The Ultimate Helm) talks about The Cloak of the First Pilot and another artefact being hidden. You may be able to infer dates for the entire backstory of the cloak. I can look for page numbers if that would help.

I wonder if it would also be useful to find the page numbers that show when the cloak manifests each of its powers. Do you think they count as "events"?
c4850
[SJ] The legendary wizardess known variously as Nimone, Larabet Vintara, Nimone, the Ice Queen, and Meredith is said to begin her career in wildspace around this time, using the name Lady Chaos. She is said to be already 500 years old at this point.
{Spelljammer #13 'The Armada'}
{Spelljammer #5}
You have "Nimone" twice. Is the second one supposed to be "Nimone, the Ice Queen"?
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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by GMWestermeyer » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:37 am

I'll look those over mac, thanks. :) But the key in a chronology less detail, not more. Some of the teldin stuff will be changes, but some is more detail than required. I don't want to remove the need to read the book. ;)

If someone can point me to any Planescape chronologies, whether on line or in a planescape book that would be awesome. :)

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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Big Mac » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:45 pm

GMWestermeyer wrote:I'll look those over mac, thanks. :) But the key in a chronology less detail, not more. Some of the teldin stuff will be changes, but some is more detail than required. I don't want to remove the need to read the book. ;)
Sure. I agree. I was more getting at the idea of filling in the past than adding a ton of detail to the present, so that someone could track the magic items that turn up in the books. (The problem is that a lot of events have no specific times. :roll: )

I would love to see some mention of Egrestarrian, Destarin, Wrycanion and Creannon (pages 248-250 of The Ultimate Helm) in your timeline. The origins of the Lovokei, Kutalla, Broul and Juna are tied up with the birth and exodus of Egrestarrian. The Sh'tarrgh are also mentioned.

I'm not too sure how you could cover this, without creating too many spoilers, but just as Dragonlance has its creation myths, I think that this stuff is actually the foundation that Spelljammer never had back when the AD&D Adventures in Space boxed set was published.

Egrestarrian must predate your c-3,000,000 era. I am unsure where Destarin, Wrycanion and Creannon took over from Egrestarrian, but we do have a date for the thing that happens to Creannon at the end of The Ultimate Helm.
GMWestermeyer wrote:If someone can point me to any Planescape chronologies, whether on line or in a planescape book that would be awesome. :)
I bet Loki would know. I might try to ping him.
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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Big Mac » Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:55 pm

GMWestermeyer wrote:I follow these guideleines when choosing events:
This is not a comprehensive history of all of TSR's campaign settings. It only includes events listed in Spelljammer products, or events that had a global significance. Faerun's Time of Troubles and Krynn's Cataclysm are prime examples of the sort of non-Spelljammer related events that were considered influential enough to be included.
But I try to include any events which are Spelljammer, space, or magical flight related. :)

Basically, anyone who wants to point me in the direction of suitable dates I might otherwise miss would be welcome. :)
I thought of something, that might be worth including. I'm not sure if you would say it was "global significance", but you have no entry for the official start of the OC calendar (1 OC/0 OC?).

I think it might also be worth looking at any other calendars of D&D, as that would allow people to work out what number to add or subtract to your years to convert them to those other systems.
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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by DungeonMasterLoki » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:28 am

Hey Paul, I'm pulling together all of my source notes from when I integrated the PS dates into my own campaign chronology. If I don't have them up here by next weekend take a shot across the bow and remind me!.

-Loki

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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by GMWestermeyer » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:09 am

Big Mac wrote:I would love to see some mention of Egrestarrian, Destarin, Wrycanion and Creannon (pages 248-250 of The Ultimate Helm) in your timeline. The origins of the Lovokei, Kutalla, Broul and Juna are tied up with the birth and exodus of Egrestarrian. The Sh'tarrgh are also mentioned.
I left it out originally because I just really, really dislike The Ultimate Helm. Sorry. :( I mean, I disliked it so much that it was painful to try to sort through that stuff.

But you are right, I should consider putting it in there in some way. :P
Big Mac wrote: I thought of something, that might be worth including. I'm not sure if you would say it was "global significance", but you have no entry for the official start of the OC calendar (1 OC/0 OC?).

I think it might also be worth looking at any other calendars of D&D, as that would allow people to work out what number to add or subtract to your years to convert them to those other systems.
Hmmm... very good idea! :) It kinda sucks that I have no idea why the Olven calendar started when it did. I think Gygax hated elves, certainly Greyhawk has veyr little in the way of elven history.
DungeonMasterLoki wrote:Hey Paul, I'm pulling together all of my source notes from when I integrated the PS dates into my own campaign chronology. If I don't have them up here by next weekend take a shot across the bow and remind me!.

-Loki

Awesome, and thank you! :)

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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Big Mac » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:35 pm

GMWestermeyer wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I would love to see some mention of Egrestarrian, Destarin, Wrycanion and Creannon (pages 248-250 of The Ultimate Helm) in your timeline. The origins of the Lovokei, Kutalla, Broul and Juna are tied up with the birth and exodus of Egrestarrian. The Sh'tarrgh are also mentioned.
I left it out originally because I just really, really dislike The Ultimate Helm. Sorry. :( I mean, I disliked it so much that it was painful to try to sort through that stuff.

But you are right, I should consider putting it in there in some way. :P
I totally understand. I am not a fan of the writing style of that novel. I also dislike the endgame (although to be fair to the author I think they had that handed to them). But, those issues aside, there are some incredibly interesting factoids contained in TUH. I intend (when I get around to it) to extracting all of those factoids, wikifying them, and then maybe one day having a look to see how the factoids could be used to improve the SJ universe.

<spoiler>
(I also think that TUH is a great way to create an excuse to have some "Spelljammer" creation rules and make a few alternative versions.)
</spoiler>
GMWestermeyer wrote:
Big Mac wrote:I thought of something, that might be worth including. I'm not sure if you would say it was "global significance", but you have no entry for the official start of the OC calendar (1 OC/0 OC?).

I think it might also be worth looking at any other calendars of D&D, as that would allow people to work out what number to add or subtract to your years to convert them to those other systems.
Hmmm... very good idea! :) It kinda sucks that I have no idea why the Olven calendar started when it did. I think Gygax hated elves, certainly Greyhawk has veyr little in the way of elven history.
I'm not sure if Gary Gygax hated elves. I've always had difficulty "getting into Greyhawk" and I'm now starting to believe that Gary G. made a lot of assumptions and ran by the seat of his pants (instead of documenting things properly). If he had not been given the elbow from TSR, perhaps we might have had an Arcane Age of Greyhawk that showed all the borders of the elven nations and explained these old events better.

For now I think an entry that says: "Start of the OC calender" would do, but if the GH fans come up with some cool fanon, I'd be tempted to incorporate that into a SJ3e timeline (that adds well-thought-out fanon to your canon timeline).
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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by ripvanwormer » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:25 pm

In my history of Greyspace, I suggested Year One in the olven calendar was the date that the elven Kingdom of the Stars (in what is now the Adri Forest) banished its goblinoid foes to Borka.

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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by GMWestermeyer » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:39 am

Big Mac wrote: I totally understand. I am not a fan of the writing style of that novel. I also dislike the endgame (although to be fair to the author I think they had that handed to them). But, those issues aside, there are some incredibly interesting factoids contained in TUH. I intend (when I get around to it) to extracting all of those factoids, wikifying them, and then maybe one day having a look to see how the factoids could be used to improve the SJ universe.
I'm more likely to include them if someone else has done the work of breaking them down. :)
Of course, the biggest issue is there are NO solid dates involved. It's all going to be in relation to the Juno dates, I guess.
Big Mac wrote: <spoiler>
(I also think that TUH is a great way to create an excuse to have some "Spelljammer" creation rules and make a few alternative versions.)
</spoiler>
I like the Smalljammer as a special reward for PCs but generally speaking I Spelljammer's Flying Dutchman remain mysterious. :)
Big Mac wrote: For now I think an entry that says: "Start of the OC calender" would do, but if the GH fans come up with some cool fanon, I'd be tempted to incorporate that into a SJ3e timeline (that adds well-thought-out fanon to your canon timeline).
You've convinced me. I'll do that for at least the major calendars for each world. :)

But as for 'fanon', not in my timeline. :)

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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Big Mac » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:42 am

GMWestermeyer wrote:
Big Mac wrote: I totally understand. I am not a fan of the writing style of that novel. I also dislike the endgame (although to be fair to the author I think they had that handed to them). But, those issues aside, there are some incredibly interesting factoids contained in TUH. I intend (when I get around to it) to extracting all of those factoids, wikifying them, and then maybe one day having a look to see how the factoids could be used to improve the SJ universe.
I'm more likely to include them if someone else has done the work of breaking them down. :)
Of course, the biggest issue is there are NO solid dates involved. It's all going to be in relation to the Juno dates, I guess.
All true stuff.

There is a lot of stuff that would be in a legendary section. And it would all be in the distant past. Then the dated section would start. (You could for example have the first evidence of history on each gameworld, even though that isn't strictly a SJ event. That might give a SJ GM an idea of how old Oerth, Toril and Krynn are.)
GMWestermeyer wrote:
Big Mac wrote: <spoiler>
(I also think that TUH is a great way to create an excuse to have some "Spelljammer" creation rules and make a few alternative versions.)
</spoiler>
I like the Smalljammer as a special reward for PCs but generally speaking I Spelljammer's Flying Dutchman remain mysterious. :)
There have been a number of TV series that have a "goal" that wraps up the concept of the story (and kills it). I think my big issue with The Spelljammer is that there is no logical way to go beyond it. I think Spelljammer (and The Spelljammer) have the same "you win and the game ends" feel to them. :?

I think there may be ways to get around that, but I think the ship may needs some modification. I think the biggest issue is the ship's "Hotel California" effect. Swapping that with a teleport effect could instead give you a campaign where the PCs move from sphere to sphere at epic speed and The Spelljammer sends them on adventures. It is a different concept, but maybe it could work like the transition between 3e's ordinary play and its Epic Handbook play (or the later boxed sets of BECMI). :?

<spoiler>
Given that the ship was originally created by the spaarkil to rescue entire groundling races, I think that sort of "rescue mission" could be used with current-era races (like the aquatic elves on Karpri). I don't propose to use the 4e era, but if I did, The Spelljammer could be a good way to "archive" the races that the Spellplague and the return of Abeir remove. Or, a 3e or 2e era campaign could feature another sphere with some "archived" races from before the time when Abeir vanished. Or the same could be done for groups destroyed on Krynn during The Cataclysm.
</spoiler>

But for low level play, I agree that the ship is of limited use.
GMWestermeyer wrote:
Big Mac wrote: For now I think an entry that says: "Start of the OC calender" would do, but if the GH fans come up with some cool fanon, I'd be tempted to incorporate that into a SJ3e timeline (that adds well-thought-out fanon to your canon timeline).
You've convinced me. I'll do that for at least the major calendars for each world. :)

But as for 'fanon', not in my timeline. :)
I agree entirely. It is the same attitude I have for Spelljammer Wiki. I've had some people want me to do fanon, but that is what I think Beyond the Moons is for. (And I think it is essential to have documentation of the canon as a baseline for fanon that builds on top of it.)
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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Big Mac » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:09 am

No date, but Havard might be able to help*: A tradesman called The Happy Gauntlet launches from the civilisation of Blackmoor, its captain completing many voyages before stumbling into an illithid ambush. The entire crew, except for the captain's wife, Sharanger Szeltune, are destroyed by the mind flayer's mental powers. She is mortally wounded but is able to unleash powerful spells that allow her to take the helm and retreat. She then retreats to a safe world, lands her ship in a hidden location and transforms herself into an archlich. <"I must Go Up to the Stars Again" p 7-8 SJR1 Lost Ships>

* = And I bet he hasn't noticed that there is a Blackmoor reference in the SJ canon.

This dates the use of the tradesman hull type, and the archlich variant on the lich, back to at least the era of the hight of power of the civilisation of Blackmoor on the World of Greyhawk. It also suggests that Greyspace had human spelljamming traffic back then. (I wonder how this compares with the Netherese spacefaring dates, and if it will show which of the two spheres was the first to convert from a groundling sphere to a spacefaring sphere.)

EDIT: "City of Blackmoor" should be civilisation of Blackmoor.
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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by ripvanwormer » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:21 am

Big Mac wrote:No date, but Havard might be able to help*: A tradesman called The Happy Gauntlet launches from the City of Blackmoor, its captain completing many voyages before stumbling into an illithid ambush. The entire crew, except for the captain's wife, Sharanger Szeltune, are destroyed by the mind flayer's mental powers. She is mortally wounded but is able to unleash powerful spells that allow her to take the helm and retreat. She then retreats to a safe world, lands her ship in a hidden location and transforms herself into an archlich. <"I must Go Up to the Stars Again" p 7-8 SJR1 Lost Ships>
It says the "civilization of Blackmoor," not the City of Blackmoor. The distinction is important. The City of Blackmoor was sacked by the Egg of Coot in the 540s CY, only about thirty or forty years ago from the perspective of SJR1.

Now, the module makes it clear that they're talking about something much more ancient: "Her knowledge of space and the worlds to be found in it are so dated as to be almost useless (though she knows where places of power are to be found in Greyhawk, which are now lost and overgrown ruins)."

I don't think the modern Archbarony of Blackmoor ever had much of a "civilization." It's a backwater, cut off from other lands by the Relentless Horde in 320 CY.

It's possible that Sharanger hails from the Archbarony of Blackmoor prior to 320 CY, when it was easier to travel to the lands of the south and the Archbarony was somewhat less of a backwater. That'd place her at 250+ years old; I think the (vague) notes in the adventure imply a significantly greater gulf of time, though.

See, then, my post on Oerth's Blackmoor, where I collected direct quotes from a variety of sources on the ancient civilization in what is now the Archbarony of Blackmoor. This earlier Blackmoor, a technological civilization, existed during the latter years of the Suel and Baklunish empires, declaring independence during those kingdoms' final wars and finally being destroyed by a plague of "Gear Madness." This civilization had contact with the Fraternity of Order, who were founded about 982 years ago.

Note that there wasn't a "City of Blackmoor" in those days. The "City of the Gods" seemed to have been the capital of that land, though it probably wasn't named that, then.

Anyway, the City of the Gods civilization was probably at its height around 1000 years ago, during the Baklunish-Suloise Wars, just before the gear madness hit.
(I wonder how this compares with the Netherese spacefaring dates, and if it will show which of the two spheres was the first to convert from a groundling sphere to a spacefaring sphere.)
The Netherese spelljammed during the Age of Discovery, between -1205 and -1064 DR, or roughly 2400 to 2500 years ago. The City of the Gods civilization in Blackmoor was more like 1000 years ago.

That doesn't mean there weren't spelljammers from Oerth before then, of course. The Suel civilization is about 6000 years old, and the Doomgrinder civilization is about 8000 years old (and I definitely think they ought to have had spelljammers). But in general, civilization on Toril seems to be older, and the earliest mention of spelljamming on Toril long predates the earliest canonical spelljammers from Oerth.

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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by Havard » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:58 pm

Wow, I was sure this was an April's Fool joke. It's too bad it specifically mentions Greyhawk. I think it could have been interesting if this ship had been from Mystara's Blackmoor, 4000 years ago.

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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by ripvanwormer » Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:29 pm

Havard wrote:Wow, I was sure this was an April's Fool joke. It's too bad it specifically mentions Greyhawk. I think it could have been interesting if this ship had been from Mystara's Blackmoor, 4000 years ago.
I can't help but suspect that was the intent. An "ancient Blackmoor civilization" didn't really exist in Oerth at the time - all of the sources I quoted in that other thread are newer than SJR1. Back then, Greyhawk's Blackmoor was just a backwater barony, far to the north, with a mysterious "city of the gods" that might just be a crashed spaceship, or something else entirely. Any idea that it had a time of glory in the distant past would have come from confusing it with Mystara's much better developed Blackmoor setting.

But at the time, it was against the rules to combine D&D and AD&D that way. The Known World and the DA series definitely didn't exist in the Spelljammer universe. So Ed Greenwood couldn't mention Dave Arneson's Blackmoor; Greyhawk's Blackmoor was the next best thing, even if there was no canonical information about its past.

If Lost Ships had been published years later, when Mystara had been integrated into 2nd edition AD&D, it probably would've been Mystara's Blackmoor that was mentioned.

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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by GMWestermeyer » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:07 am

ripvanwormer wrote:
Havard wrote:Wow, I was sure this was an April's Fool joke. It's too bad it specifically mentions Greyhawk. I think it could have been interesting if this ship had been from Mystara's Blackmoor, 4000 years ago.
I can't help but suspect that was the intent. An "ancient Blackmoor civilization" didn't really exist in Oerth at the time - all of the sources I quoted in that other thread are newer than SJR1. Back then, Greyhawk's Blackmoor was just a backwater barony, far to the north, with a mysterious "city of the gods" that might just be a crashed spaceship, or something else entirely. Any idea that it had a time of glory in the distant past would have come from confusing it with Mystara's much better developed Blackmoor setting.

But at the time, it was against the rules to combine D&D and AD&D that way. The Known World and the DA series definitely didn't exist in the Spelljammer universe. So Ed Greenwood couldn't mention Dave Arneson's Blackmoor; Greyhawk's Blackmoor was the next best thing, even if there was no canonical information about its past.
Awesome stuff! And perhaps a possible timelink for Mystara to Greyhawk (and thus all of the big three), which I've needed!

We have two issues on which Blackmoor was intended, you lay it out well. :) Since we know both were originally the same setting created by Dave Arneson, some sort of link makes sense. Perhaps the Greyhawk Blackmoor crashed ship was from the Mystaran Blackmoor?

edit: Mystara and Greyhawk have long been connected in my mind. :) My earliest PCs migrated from the 'Known World' of X1 Isle of Dread to Greyhawk. Lots of us placed the Caves of Chaos in the old days, of course, and put the Isle of Dread in the Azure Sea, as Dungeon magazine did decades later. :)

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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by ripvanwormer » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:30 am

GMWestermeyer wrote:Awesome stuff! And perhaps a possible timelink for Mystara to Greyhawk (and thus all of the big three), which I've needed!
Hm, I don't think so. Although Ed Greenwood may have been thinking about Mystara's Blackmoor, he clearly wrote that it was Greyhawk's Blackmoor. Canonically, I'd just place it as early evidence for an ancient Blackmoor civilization on Oerth.
Since we know both were originally the same setting created by Dave Arneson
Well, kind of. Greyhawk's Archbarony of Blackmoor was an homage of sorts to Dave Arneson's Kingdom of Blackmoor, but as published the two only have a few things in common.

The biggest connection is that Greyhawk's Egg of Coot may be the same entity as Mystara's Egg of Coot (LGG co-author Fred Weining suggested it was, in his original Oerth Journal article that provided the basis for the LGG entry). I don't think that's enough to be able to tell any more than Greyhawk's Blackmoor must have been founded after Mystara's Blackmoor.

We've suggested in other threads that the ancient Greyhawk realm of Blackmoor might have been founded by Khoronus, a man (and later Immortal) from Mystara's Blackmoor said in Wrath of the Immortals to have founded a Blackmoorian colony on some other world.
Perhaps the Greyhawk Blackmoor crashed ship was from the Mystaran Blackmoor?
Greyhawk's Blackmoor doesn't have a crashed ship, at least not by current canon (it may well have, by Gary Gygax's intent). Greyhawk's City of the Gods was a kind of magical steampunk city from long ago, while Mystara's City of the Gods was a crashed technological Federation exploration vessel.

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Re: Datacall Spelljammer Chronology

Post by ripvanwormer » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:32 pm

GMWestermeyer wrote:Awesome stuff! And perhaps a possible timelink for Mystara to Greyhawk (and thus all of the big three), which I've needed!
We discussed the evidence timelinking Mystara and other worlds in this thread.

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