Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

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Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:10 am

Something that I created while working on another project.

The Krynnspace of today is considered by the proper civilizations of wildspace to be a backwater of little interest. This was not always the case. Once, thousands of years ago, it was the throne-sphere for a vast spelljamming empire of considerable power, majesty, and cruelty. Let me tell you about Zivilyn, the Radiant Empire.

When Zivilyn was a whole world, its history closely mirrored that of Krynn, the principle world of Krynnspace. Like Krynn, about eight thousand years ago, ogres ruled the planet. Unlike ogres of today, these ancient ogres were a tall, proud race of great beauty and intellect. Magic flowed through their veins; they were just as magically adept as some ancient human empires. For a time, the ogres were content to rule their mountainous households, their every whim tended by their human slaves. By chance, a particularly brilliant ogre mage, Manjii, spied the elven Man-O-War, the Timeless Triumph, as it orbited above Zivilyn. Intrigued by the craft, he spent decades researching the means to escape his planet and sail the stars. His brilliance unlocked the secrets of creating the infamous Death Helms, with which he created the first of Zivilyn’s spelljammers. In time, he amassed a great fortune from his exploration and colonization of Krynnspace, enough to win him the Imperial Crown of Zivilyn. His crowning gave birth to Zivilyn, the Radiant Empire, for under his rule, the ogres made the great leap from a simple groundling kingdom to an empire with colonies all across the sphere.

The ogres grew rapidly, and within a thousand years, had colonies in a dozen spheres. Greyspace, Realmspace, Heartspace, Winterspace, Spiralspace, Pathspace, and more all became shimmering jewels in the crown of the ogres. With them they brought culture, art, trade, and slavery to dozens of worlds previously untouched by sentient beings. The ogres crafted many designs of spelljammers, of which the Mammoth is most famous. Such was their power that even the mighty Elven Fleet was barred from many spheres, for they feared any victory over Zivilyn would be a pyrrhic one that would leave far too many elves dead and elven nations shattered. Fortunately, with access to so many uninhabited worlds, the ogres had little interest in large, heavily populated worlds, beyond limited trade and the occasional raid.

On Krynn, the mighty ogre empires eventually failed, for the ogres were cursed by the gods. Their beauty diminished, and their minds dulled, and the ogres became the simple-minded brutes familiar to modern peoples. The ogres of Zivilyn fared no better. Inbreeding brought about by strict laws had already shattered the ogres into creatures not unlike the goblin races, which were long used as slaves and servants. The divine curse would eventually fracture and destroy the ogres of Zivilyn as well. Its citizens became brutes, more interested in treasure and their own survival than maintaining their empire. It was the ogres’ own navy that sacked their capital city, before individual captains departed forever, leaving their own empire in flames they had lit. In the end, an empire that had stood for two thousand years was consumed by those it had once counted on for its defense.
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby Tauster » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:36 pm

great stuff, as always!

would you think that some of these colonies have survided? I don't mean 'survived until today'* but long enough so that their influence on younger cultures and realms might be still visible?

* though a small civilised ogre (ogre magi?) realm would be cool as hell! :mrgreen:
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:39 pm

Tauster wrote:great stuff, as always!


Thanks! Always glad to hear people enjoying my work :)

would you think that some of these colonies have survided? I don't mean 'survived until today'* but long enough so that their influence on younger cultures and realms might be still visible?

* though a small civilised ogre (ogre magi?) realm would be cool as hell! :mrgreen:


Well, I've been contemplating having one colony survive. In a relatively remote sphere, off the major flow rivers. A sphere with a shining, steel-colored sun... :twisted:
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:09 am

BTW, in terms of cultural impact upon the Known Spheres:

1. Primarily, I'm using Zivilyn as the source of the term "Radiant Triangle", for the heartland of the Radiant Empire was Krynn, Realm, and Grey-spaces. Few sages are aware of this fact.

2. Zivilyn mined gold & other precious metals/gemstones on a planet they called Glaclyn, a frigid, heavy-gravity planet. Later, long after those mines were abandoned, the Elven Fleet remembered those colonies, and honored ancient Zivilynian claims by dumping thousands of goblins upon that world, which was renamed Armistice. ;)

3. I see Pathspace as having been settled by the ogres; they were ultimately overthrown by their human slaves but some ogre fiefs still remain. Paul puts the swashbuckling cultures from the SJ/Dragonlance crossover comic here, so I see those humans as being (unknowing) related to Krynnish humans. To keep with the swashbuckling feel of the sphere, the ogres of Pathspace may not have declined as badly as those in other spheres.
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:00 pm

Winterspace
The cold frontier of the Radiant Empire is Winterspace. The sphere’s principal planet is Radole, a tidally locked world with a thin ribbon of habitable land sandwiched between a sun-scorched desert and a deadly cold dark-side. Winterspace’s other major planet, Glaclyn, is a frozen hell of a world with crushing gravity and deadly blizzards. The Radiant Empire has few interests in this sphere aside from mining cities on Glaclyn. The Imperial presence in the sphere typically amounts to irregular patrols by two mammoth ships, usually the Thunder in the Snow and Feast of Winter.

Radole
Inhabited by strong city-states of humans and other races, Radole is an undesirable target of ogre conquest. Despite this, the ogres do require Radole’s resources to support their mining operations on Glaclyn, so ogre merchants are forced to trade honestly with the natives of Radole.

Gotrut’s Hold (small city)
Founded: 851 ZY
Description: The ogre merchants of the Gotrut clan founded this fortress-hold in 851 ZY. At its heart, Gotrut’s Hold is little more than a few rickety buildings surrounded by a wooden palisade with an open clearing large enough for a mammoth to set down. The Gotruts built the Hold to facilitate trade, particularly the purchase of foodstuff needed by the miners of Glaclyn. The small city that has grown around the Hold is a testament to its success.
The city is home to maybe a hundred or so pureblood ogres, protected by a garrison of about three hundred hoblyns. The ogres have leased the land that the Hold sits upon for another two years, with the option of a century-long extension. The city is rustic, with none of the culture of ogre cities at the empire’s heart. It is little more than a market and staging ground for ogre merchants to purchase food, lumber, and like materials to be shipped to the mining towns of Glaclyn.
Gotrut’s Hold is a bit of a problem for the surrounding lords. When they leased the land to the ogres, they did not imagine the squatter’s town that would arise, complete with prostitution, drugs, blood sport, slavery, and crippling poverty. Legally, there is little the lords can do until the lease runs out. They have already agreed to deny the ogres’ request for an extension. This could lead to a confrontation when the lords go to evict the ogres.
Adventure Hooks
• The PCs are hired by the Gotrut family to “convince” the lords to grant the extension. This might involve some subtle leg-breaking, kidnapping, and even murder.
• The PCs are hired by a local captain to Shang-hi some muscle for the mines of Glaclyn.
Today: Gotrut Hold is a memory. The city has been plowed over and is now a farm. The current tenants turn over the occasional oddity from Gotrut’s heyday, but are completely ignorant of the city that once sat upon their land.

Glaclyn
Deadly cold and wracked by heavy gravity, Glaclyn is the last place any ogre wishes to be. The planet would be a footnote had explorers not discovered gold and other precious metals in 592 ZY. This kicked off a gold rush as low-born ogres sought to wrest a fortune from the bitter-cold earth of Glaclyn.

Draul (small city)
Founded: 900 ZY
Description: Built by prospectors, Draul is a mining town located in a sheltered valley on the frigid world of Glaclyn (modern-day Armistice). It is surrounded by deep gold mines, dug out by slaves. Draul is largely underground, with only a few surface buildings. The city’s “harbor” is a cavern large enough to hold four mammoth ships, with a solid iron door to keep out the worst of the winds.
The city is a den of decadence. Gold wrested from the rock by slaves is handed over to ogre masters, who in turn spend it on all manner of pleasures. The city has many brothels, dreamsmoke dens, taverns, and a bloodsport arena. The ogres amuse themselves with such things while their slave toil under hoblyn whips. A steady stream of slaves is necessary to keep the mines operating at full capacity.
Draul is one of about a half dozen such towns on Glaclyn. The frozen ruins of older towns, abandoned due to the weather or gold veins running out, are scattered across the mountains of Glaclyn.
Adventure Hooks
• A motherlode has been found. The PCs hear of this incredible find and decide to indulge in a little claim-jumping. Not only do they have to drive off the prospectors, but they have to defend their newly stolen claim against the original owners, other claim-jumpers, and monsters, all the while working the mine while harsh blizzards howl around them.
• A landslide has destroyed a critical food storehouse. Famine is expected in days. The PCs must fight their way aboard the last ship out of town before they starve. If they fail, they must hunt dangerous animals for the food to survive.
Today: The gold lodes have long played out and the city was abandoned long before Zivilyn fell. The goblin-kin of Armistice have rediscovered the city and now inhabit its deep caverns, scratching out a miserable existence. The doors have frozen half-shut, and no long provide shelter against the biting wind.

The Abbey of Winter’s Wrath (town)
Founded: 775 ZY
Description: The Abby was built by a sect of devout ogre priests, the Hands of Sargonnas, who sought out the most hostile environment they could imagine to create a proving ground for their order. The Order believes that only the strongest can survive the deadly blizzards and howling winds of the mountain the Abbey is built upon. Monks must hunt the dangerous animals that inhabit the mountain if they hope to survive the long blizzards that can isolate the Abbey for months at a time.
At any given time, roughly a dozen priests dwell in the Abbey. They are tended by as many as two hundred slaves, although the slaves frequently dwindle to a handful as they die off and are eaten by the ogres. Leadership passes to the strongest surviving ogre.
Adventure Hooks
• The PCs stumble across the Abbey while prospecting on Glaclyn. They must prove their strength to the ogre priests to avoid being tossed in the stewpot!
• A priest of Sargonnas must make a pilgrimage to the Abbey to prove his worth to his god.
Today: The location of the Abbey has been lost for over four thousand years. The goblin-kin of Armistice have legends about a mystical, frost-encased structure inhabited by horrible giants that hunt and eat any goblin they catch. The giants are said to have unusual powers over frost and cold, and may in fact be undead.
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby ripvanwormer » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:16 pm

Interesting. I can see a couple of different ways of going with this idea. I think descendants of the Radiant Empire should have some trait that distinguishes them from giant-kin and goblin-kin of other origins, unless all giant-kin and goblin-kin are descendants of the Radiant Empire. Orcs wouldn't be, since orcs are the most prominent humanoid race that Krynnspace doesn't have (and gray orcs, at least, already have a specific origin on Toril), but goblins, hobgoblins, giant-kin, ogres, and trolls are all similar enough on all three worlds that a common origin doesn't seem out of the question. Krynnish minotaurs, of course, are unique to Krynn originally, and probably aren't descended from Zivilyn's ogres.

I kind of like the idea that all goblin-kin of the Radiant Triangle, at least, could trace their ancestry back to Zivilyn if only they could remember that far. The fact that the giant-kin and goblin-kin of Realmspace and Greyspace worship the same gods suggests a common origin. They may have originally developed these faiths in Winterspace or some other colony sphere outside of the domain of the Krynnish deities, or the Krynnish deities may not have come yet to Krynnspace during the time of the empire's height. Or they might have introduced themselves to the scattered ogre-kin separately, through proxies and star-wandering servants, and the fact that they are worshiped on multiple worlds may be evidence of nothing at all.

Your mileage may vary, but my impulse is to let a multi-sphere empire that seems as big a deal as this have far-ranging and dramatic consequences in the campaign settings it touched.
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:17 pm

I was definitely interested in hearing what you thought about the idea, ripvanwormer ;) Especially given your work on Greyspace's history.

ripvanwormer wrote:Interesting. I can see a couple of different ways of going with this idea. I think descendants of the Radiant Empire should have some trait that distinguishes them from giant-kin and goblin-kin of other origins, unless all giant-kin and goblin-kin are descendants of the Radiant Empire. Orcs wouldn't be, since orcs are the most prominent humanoid race that Krynnspace doesn't have (and gray orcs, at least, already have a specific origin on Toril), but goblins, hobgoblins, giant-kin, ogres, and trolls are all similar enough on all three worlds that a common origin doesn't seem out of the question. Krynnish minotaurs, of course, are unique to Krynn originally, and probably aren't descended from Zivilyn's ogres.


Certainly orcs would have a different origin point than Zivilyn. Orcs were used somewhat as mercenaries at various points, but only lightly so. As far as all goblin/giant/troll-king being from this empire, I'll take the tact of "maybe". Its an option for GMs if they so choose to use it, but I wouldn't claim it to be canon in any fashion ;)

Hell, to be honest, I've toyed with the idea of the Arcane being of Zivilyn origin (being blue-skinned giants), but I think I'm not going that route.

I kind of like the idea that all goblin-kin of the Radiant Triangle, at least, could trace their ancestry back to Zivilyn if only they could remember that far. The fact that the giant-kin and goblin-kin of Realmspace and Greyspace worship the same gods suggests a common origin. They may have originally developed these faiths in Winterspace or some other colony sphere outside of the domain of the Krynnish deities, or the Krynnish deities may not have come yet to Krynnspace during the time of the empire's height. Or they might have introduced themselves to the scattered ogre-kin separately, through proxies and star-wandering servants, and the fact that they are worshiped on multiple worlds may be evidence of nothing at all.


The gods part would be the hardest point. I think the ogres of Krynnspace would worship Krynnish gods, but maybe at some point the proto-goblins of the other spheres started interbreeding with goblins from other spheres, and after the empire fell, the Krynnish pantheon fell out of favor and the goblin pantheons rose to prominence.

Your mileage may vary, but my impulse is to let a multi-sphere empire that seems as big a deal as this have far-ranging and dramatic consequences in the campaign settings it touched.


The one thing I don't want to do is start screwing with FR, GH, & DL's histories, so thus I'm working with the idea that Zivilyn didn't feel much like messing with large, heavily populated worlds when they had much easier pickings available to them. Their interactions with large worlds went pretty much unnoticed, somewhat like the Elven Fleet today. But in places where we really don't know much, like Pathspace, they were the driving force in settling the sphere (massive slave farms)
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby GMWestermeyer » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:50 pm

I like it as well... I'd like it tied firmly to Dragonlance history, deriving characteristics of the Radiant Empire ogres from the Dragonlance ogres like I did with Tauruspace.

I'd liberally use the Nzunta from DLR1 Otherlands, which also has a great description of the Irda's current society which can be a great model for pockets of Radiant Empire successor colonies. :)

edit: Rip, your idea that the humanoids of Greyspace and the Realms are related since they have identical gods is intriguing. I have my own theories about that, and about how it realtes to the dwarves, elves, ect and the nature of the Spheres. :) More later.
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby Big Mac » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:53 pm

Very good. This is different to what I was thinking of (which was mostly a way to have an event that caused the gods to blow up Zivilyn*), but your Radiant Empire seems to abandon Zivilyn before the world gets blown up, so maybe the two things are not mutually exclusive.

* = I was thinking that some elves on Zivilyn try to "import in" some of the elven pantheon (and carry out the year-long process creating churches to open the sphere up to new deities). I was thinking that the destruction of the world could be a backlash at carrying out that act.

night_druid wrote:When Zivilyn was a whole world, its history closely mirrored that of Krynn, the principle world of Krynnspace. Like Krynn, about eight thousand years ago, ogres ruled the planet. Unlike ogres of today, these ancient ogres were a tall, proud race of great beauty and intellect. Magic flowed through their veins; they were just as magically adept as some ancient human empires. For a time, the ogres were content to rule their mountainous households, their every whim tended by their human slaves. By chance, a particularly brilliant ogre mage, Manjii, spied the elven Man-O-War, the Timeless Triumph, as it orbited above Zivilyn. Intrigued by the craft, he spent decades researching the means to escape his planet and sail the stars. His brilliance unlocked the secrets of creating the infamous Death Helms, with which he created the first of Zivilyn’s spelljammers. In time, he amassed a great fortune from his exploration and colonization of Krynnspace, enough to win him the Imperial Crown of Zivilyn. His crowning gave birth to Zivilyn, the Radiant Empire, for under his rule, the ogres made the great leap from a simple groundling kingdom to an empire with colonies all across the sphere.


Sounds like you should be starting the story of Zivilyn off with High Ogres (aka Proto-Ogres or Ur-Ogres), rather than Ogres. The backstory of High Ogres on Krynn is that they were "cast down from the heavens to rules the world", so perhaps the High Ogres on Krynn were originally spacefarers.

High Ogres come in a variety of colours, as well as blue, and I think it could be good to make use of that. Each colour of High Ogre could, on Zivilyn, be a different nation on the world. Rather than making it a world empire of Ogres that form an empire, you could then have a single nation that subverts the others, as well as making a spacefaring empire. That could allow the other nations to later attack the empire and cause Zivilyn's society to collapse from within. The spacefaring fleets of the Radiant Empire, could still have all of the colours of High Ogre on their ships, but one race would be the "royal" race.

Maybe on other worlds, the different High Ogres could mingle (and become more of a unified culture) but on their own world, they could each share a bit of the xenophobia that beholders have and all want their race to rule supreme.

night_druid wrote:The ogres grew rapidly, and within a thousand years, had colonies in a dozen spheres. Greyspace, Realmspace, Heartspace, Winterspace, Spiralspace, Pathspace, and more all became shimmering jewels in the crown of the ogres. With them they brought culture, art, trade, and slavery to dozens of worlds previously untouched by sentient beings. The ogres crafted many designs of spelljammers, of which the Mammoth is most famous. Such was their power that even the mighty Elven Fleet was barred from many spheres, for they feared any victory over Zivilyn would be a pyrrhic one that would leave far too many elves dead and elven nations shattered. Fortunately, with access to so many uninhabited worlds, the ogres had little interest in large, heavily populated worlds, beyond limited trade and the occasional raid.


I'm not sure the Radiant Empire needs to be that large. If it gave the name to the Radiant Triangle, perhaps a three-sphere empire, that sent out explorers to another nine spheres, would be a better fit.

I like the idea of an empire that does not interact much with "groundling" worlds, but wonder if that is a bit of a simplification. Perhaps instead of finding "uninhabited worlds" they could find "uninhabited regions". This would mean that they could completely take over a small world (even if it was inhabited) but might colonise an isolated island-continent on a larger world.

night_druid wrote:On Krynn, the mighty ogre empires eventually failed, for the ogres were cursed by the gods. Their beauty diminished, and their minds dulled, and the ogres became the simple-minded brutes familiar to modern peoples. The ogres of Zivilyn fared no better. Inbreeding brought about by strict laws had already shattered the ogres into creatures not unlike the goblin races, which were long used as slaves and servants. The divine curse would eventually fracture and destroy the ogres of Zivilyn as well. Its citizens became brutes, more interested in treasure and their own survival than maintaining their empire. It was the ogres’ own navy that sacked their capital city, before individual captains departed forever, leaving their own empire in flames they had lit. In the end, an empire that had stood for two thousand years was consumed by those it had once counted on for its defense.


The main problem I see here, is that the power of the gods of Krynn (and Krynnspace) ends at the crystal sphere. The DL gods could certainly cause the decline of any High Ogres within the sphere, but High Ogres outside the sphere would not be within their power.

night_druid wrote:
Tauster wrote:would you think that some of these colonies have survided? I don't mean 'survived until today'* but long enough so that their influence on younger cultures and realms might be still visible?

* though a small civilised ogre (ogre magi?) realm would be cool as hell! :mrgreen:


Well, I've been contemplating having one colony survive. In a relatively remote sphere, off the major flow rivers. A sphere with a shining, steel-colored sun... :twisted:


There always needs to be some survivors. Dragonlance Nexus or the 3e MWP books have some evil Irda-like guys. I think you could go with something similar to them.

ripvanwormer wrote:I kind of like the idea that all goblin-kin of the Radiant Triangle, at least, could trace their ancestry back to Zivilyn if only they could remember that far. The fact that the giant-kin and goblin-kin of Realmspace and Greyspace worship the same gods suggests a common origin. They may have originally developed these faiths in Winterspace or some other colony sphere outside of the domain of the Krynnish deities, or the Krynnish deities may not have come yet to Krynnspace during the time of the empire's height. Or they might have introduced themselves to the scattered ogre-kin separately, through proxies and star-wandering servants, and the fact that they are worshiped on multiple worlds may be evidence of nothing at all.


Here, I think, is where all the "common cultures" elements of D&D clash with Dragonlance. In Dragonlance you have to have elves worshiping Eli and other local gods or the continuity-conflict alarm goes off.

However, I think you may be onto something.

How about we do your idea in reverse, and also do my idea in reverse and have the Radiant Empire take Dragonlance culutre (and their faith in their own gods) to Realmspace, Greyspace and their lesser colonies within nine other spheres. If they have arcane magical power, they may not actually need to use divine magic much, and may confine themselves to using the Contact Home Power spell, from time to time.

But imagine if they then found out that they could build some uber-temples, sacrifice hundreds (or thousands) of slaves and then break through the barrier to their own cosmology and pull their own gods from the Abyss in the DL cosmology into the wider Great Wheel cosmology. Suppose that the High God had created the DL cosmology, hidden within The Great Wheel, to give his own gods far more power over his sphere. Suppose that breaking the artificial barrier that the High God had created between Krynnspace (or Zivilynspace) and the other spheres was a taboo that the High Ogre were forbidden to break.

Something like this could give you an event where the barriers around Krynn break down and the DL gods reach out to the other spheres to smite down the High Ogres there. They could also smite the High Ogres back home (on Zivilyn) who are conspiring to break open the Abyss. It could all be a bit like what the Kingpriest did, but across several spheres.

Something like that could instantly decapitate the centre of the empire (within Krynnspace) and the fallen ogres in other spheres could turn to other gods in an attempt to stop the magical diseases that slowly start to cripple their bodies, and rob them of their innate spellcasting powers. They could find some gods, which could be the multi-sphere gods that you mention, Rip, and then reject their old gods in favour for these new gods.

The empire could continue on for a while, with the support of these new gods, but the Fallen Ogres could have greatly reduced lifetimes and the culture could stagnate over the next few hundred years, to the point where the Elven Navy could move in and isolate groups, break the edged of the Radiant Empire off and then move in to destroy it when it falls back to being a Radiant Triangle.
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:42 pm

GMWestermeyer wrote:I like it as well... I'd like it tied firmly to Dragonlance history, deriving characteristics of the Radiant Empire ogres from the Dragonlance ogres like I did with Tauruspace.


That's the intent. Been doing a lot of research into the Dragonlance ogres of ole, although some things confuse. Namely, exactly how BIG were the old ogres, anyways? I'm seeing anything from a tall human (about 6' tall) to giant-sized (15' tall). I sorta want to stick with them being about as tall as normal ogres (9' tall), except maybe give them a good range of say 7' to 12' tall (sorta like humans vary from about 4' tall to 7' tall).

And I sorta keep Tauruspace in mind when I'm writing this :)

I'd liberally use the Nzunta from DLR1 Otherlands, which also has a great description of the Irda's current society which can be a great model for pockets of Radiant Empire successor colonies. :)


Ah, thanks for pointing that out. At the very least, the Dark Ogres is a good source of ideas, and the section is fairly beefy. Out of curiosity, aside from Steelspace, where might you place successor colonies? I figure Pathspace might be a good choice, and perhaps Heartspace as well. I did envision a colony in Spiral/Bralspace that broke away, only to fall to goblin/orc hands, which in turn were destroyed by the first arrival of you-know-who. ;) Are you thinking of a splinter colony that survives to this day?

edit: Rip, your idea that the humanoids of Greyspace and the Realms are related since they have identical gods is intriguing. I have my own theories about that, and about how it realtes to the dwarves, elves, ect and the nature of the Spheres. :) More later.


Heh, I'm game for anything in that regard. I do know that, at least for the Realms, Zivilyn could not possibly be the source of the giants & giant-kin, as their history is well-established and predates Krynnspace as a whole by ten-thousand years or more. Goblin-kin, on the other hand, is a bit murkier, as they really didn't give them much of a history that I'm aware of.
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:06 pm

Big Mac wrote:Very good. This is different to what I was thinking of (which was mostly a way to have an event that caused the gods to blow up Zivilyn*), but your Radiant Empire seems to abandon Zivilyn before the world gets blown up, so maybe the two things are not mutually exclusive.


They're not. The Radiant Empire would be a 5,000-year-old memory by the time of the Cataclysm. ;)

Sounds like you should be starting the story of Zivilyn off with High Ogres (aka Proto-Ogres or Ur-Ogres), rather than Ogres. The backstory of High Ogres on Krynn is that they were "cast down from the heavens to rules the world", so perhaps the High Ogres on Krynn were originally spacefarers.


Oh, I am. "Ogre" == High Ogre in this context. Although it really is a catch-phrase for high ogres, low ogres (much more like the common ogre), half-ogres, and goblin-kin (bugbear, hobgoblin, and goblin).

High Ogres come in a variety of colours, as well as blue, and I think it could be good to make use of that. Each colour of High Ogre could, on Zivilyn, be a different nation on the world. Rather than making it a world empire of Ogres that form an empire, you could then have a single nation that subverts the others, as well as making a spacefaring empire. That could allow the other nations to later attack the empire and cause Zivilyn's society to collapse from within. The spacefaring fleets of the Radiant Empire, could still have all of the colours of High Ogre on their ships, but one race would be the "royal" race.


As far as I can tell, they're largely blue, green, or rarely purple, with shades in-between. I am going to have numerous royal and noble houses; they've spread out over the years, looking for areas where they can rule the roost without reporting directly to the primary royal house.

I'm not sure the Radiant Empire needs to be that large. If it gave the name to the Radiant Triangle, perhaps a three-sphere empire, that sent out explorers to another nine spheres, would be a better fit.


Don't get hung up on the number 12; its just a place-holder for "the ogres had colonies or influence in basically this number of spheres". I'm not too sure how big the empire really was, at this point, and remember, they *never* completely conquered any sphere. They were more like an ogre version of the Elven Nations, rather than the heavy-handed Vodoni.

I like the idea of an empire that does not interact much with "groundling" worlds, but wonder if that is a bit of a simplification. Perhaps instead of finding "uninhabited worlds" they could find "uninhabited regions". This would mean that they could completely take over a small world (even if it was inhabited) but might colonise an isolated island-continent on a larger world.


Its possible, although remember, one big goal of mine is to avoid trampling on FR/DL/GH canon, so finding a suitable area on those worlds might be difficult.

The main problem I see here, is that the power of the gods of Krynn (and Krynnspace) ends at the crystal sphere. The DL gods could certainly cause the decline of any High Ogres within the sphere, but High Ogres outside the sphere would not be within their power.


The "curse" could have been written into ogre genetics prior to them escaping the sphere, so they were doomed from the start. Regardless, I do think there might be pockets that escaped the curse (such as Steelspace and perhaps Spiral/Path spaces).

How about we do your idea in reverse, and also do my idea in reverse and have the Radiant Empire take Dragonlance culutre (and their faith in their own gods) to Realmspace, Greyspace and their lesser colonies within nine other spheres. If they have arcane magical power, they may not actually need to use divine magic much, and may confine themselves to using the Contact Home Power spell, from time to time.


I don't think the ogres were particularly reverent creatures, so they may been easily swayed by new gods they encountered.

The empire could continue on for a while, with the support of these new gods, but the Fallen Ogres could have greatly reduced lifetimes and the culture could stagnate over the next few hundred years, to the point where the Elven Navy could move in and isolate groups, break the edged of the Radiant Empire off and then move in to destroy it when it falls back to being a Radiant Triangle.


To be honest, I'm not sure if DL has its own cosmology or what, or how all that works together. I sort of don't see them engaging in such an elaborate scheme, but its entirely possible, though. I see their collapse as hinging more on the fact that the ogres gradually became dumber, and their ability to manage their empire eroded away until the generals/admirals/captains all decided to grab what they could and build their own empire elsewhere, somewhat like how Rome fell.
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby GMWestermeyer » Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:10 pm

night_druid wrote:
I'd liberally use the Nzunta from DLR1 Otherlands, which also has a great description of the Irda's current society which can be a great model for pockets of Radiant Empire successor colonies. :)


Ah, thanks for pointing that out. At the very least, the Dark Ogres is a good source of ideas, and the section is fairly beefy. Out of curiosity, aside from Steelspace, where might you place successor colonies? I figure Pathspace might be a good choice, and perhaps Heartspace as well. I did envision a colony in Spiral/Bralspace that broke away, only to fall to goblin/orc hands, which in turn were destroyed by the first arrival of you-know-who. ;) Are you thinking of a splinter colony that survives to this day?


Oh yeah, definitely a colony surviving to today, somewhere. :)

Bralpsace should be a colony location, but not a current, active culture. I' love to incorporate some of this into Bral's history. You have the history so. :)
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:41 pm

GMWestermeyer wrote:Oh yeah, definitely a colony surviving to today, somewhere. :)


I'm leaning heavily towards Steelspace as being a Zivilyn colony that went unnoticed during the Unhuman Wars. But otherwise I'm open to suggestions or requests.

Bralpsace should be a colony location, but not a current, active culture. I' love to incorporate some of this into Bral's history. You have the history so. :)


I've actually started incorporating Bralspace into Zivilyn. Of course, Zivilyn fall is sometime prior to where your timeline picks up (fall somewhere around -800 OC, although I'm flexible on that), and your timeline picks up somewhere around 800 OC. So I figure I'm relatively safe so long as Zivilyn is gone prior to 800 OC.
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby GMWestermeyer » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:14 am

night_druid wrote:
Bralpsace should be a colony location, but not a current, active culture. I' love to incorporate some of this into Bral's history. You have the history so. :)


I've actually started incorporating Bralspace into Zivilyn. Of course, Zivilyn fall is sometime prior to where your timeline picks up (fall somewhere around -800 OC, although I'm flexible on that), and your timeline picks up somewhere around 800 OC. So I figure I'm relatively safe so long as Zivilyn is gone prior to 800 OC.


Steelspace definitely, this is a great way to add detail to the Ogre Empire that is hinted at in several places. :)

As for Bralspace and the timeline... yeah, it has some gaps that need filling. :)
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:51 pm

GMWestermeyer wrote:Steelspace definitely, this is a great way to add detail to the Ogre Empire that is hinted at in several places. :)


I'm curious as to where the Ogre Empire is hinted at, outside my Goblin Gear article. Can you cite some sources or point me in the right direction? :)

As for Bralspace and the timeline... yeah, it has some gaps that need filling. :)


Heh, well it covers 4,000 years, which is a good run. :)
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby GMWestermeyer » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:58 pm

night_druid wrote:
GMWestermeyer wrote:Steelspace definitely, this is a great way to add detail to the Ogre Empire that is hinted at in several places. :)


I'm curious as to where the Ogre Empire is hinted at, outside my Goblin Gear article. Can you cite some sources or point me in the right direction? :)


I think you already know them. Lost Ships has several spread throughout, especially in the Mammoth entry. And the Roger Moore Scro article in Dragon Annual #1 hints as well. :)
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:16 pm

GMWestermeyer wrote:I think you already know them. Lost Ships has several spread throughout, especially in the Mammoth entry. And the Roger Moore Scro article in Dragon Annual #1 hints as well. :)


Ah, OK, I thought you were talking about an ancient ogre empire, not Steelspace. My bad :)
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby GMWestermeyer » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:55 am

night_druid wrote:
GMWestermeyer wrote:I think you already know them. Lost Ships has several spread throughout, especially in the Mammoth entry. And the Roger Moore Scro article in Dragon Annual #1 hints as well. :)


Ah, OK, I thought you were talking about an ancient ogre empire, not Steelspace. My bad :)



Ah... but I am! See, what better explanation for ogres being so widespread? The Steelstar is one of those successor states I mentioned. Much the way Mordor is just a survivor from the wreck and ruin of Angband. :)

For myself, tying such an ancient empire into the high ogres/Irda that we know lived on Krynn, and perhaps into the Giantish history in FR's Giantcraft, the Norse myths, and some of the deity stuff in the various deity books? Though... on second thought perhaps focus on the ogre magi info in the various Kara-tur books more, combine that with the Irda. The Norse/Giant info always has the ogres as second-class creatures with the giants as the leaders/rulers. An ogre empire should have the ogres shining and leading.
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:08 pm

GMWestermeyer wrote:Ah... but I am! See, what better explanation for ogres being so widespread? The Steelstar is one of those successor states I mentioned. Much the way Mordor is just a survivor from the wreck and ruin of Angband. :)


Heh, well its pretty confirmed now that Steelspace is a successor state to Zivilyn that has remained unnoticed for the past 5,000 years or so ;)

For myself, tying such an ancient empire into the high ogres/Irda that we know lived on Krynn, and perhaps into the Giantish history in FR's Giantcraft, the Norse myths, and some of the deity stuff in the various deity books? Though... on second thought perhaps focus on the ogre magi info in the various Kara-tur books more, combine that with the Irda. The Norse/Giant info always has the ogres as second-class creatures with the giants as the leaders/rulers. An ogre empire should have the ogres shining and leading.


I've thought about Kara-Tur as well. I'm not sure if things would work out, time-wise. I know giants don't; they have major empires back at around -20k DR, which predates Zivilyn by a good 13k years or more. ;)
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:43 am

OK, did a little work on the Spiralspace colonies while I'm sorta laid up with a pulled muscle in the back (ugh). I took some liberties with Shipwrecker; hope you approve :)

Spiralspace
When the ogres discovered Spiralspace in 917 ZY, the sphere was largely uninhabited and unknown to any merchant. Captain Indox made three expeditions to the sphere and in doing so established himself as governor of the sphere’s burgeoning new colonies. Despite being on the Empire’s frontier, Spiralspace had several large settlements. Governor Indox treats the sphere as his private fief, with large slave farms to provide test subjects for his insane experiments.

Shipwrecker
When discovered, this minor world had only one notable commodity worth exploiting: lumber. The ogres set up a lumber camp and set to work chopping down trees and exporting them. For thirty years, the camp operated smoothly, up until 949 ZY. In the spring of that year, the mammoth Wartusk of Doom was destroyed by a freak storm that shattered the ship and killed half the crew. Afterwards, the planet experienced violent storms that wrecked every ship that approached, and the planet was renamed “Shipwrecker”. The ogres abandoned the planet shortly thereafter.

Unknown to most, the reason for the storms can be traced to a particular passenger aboard the Wartusk of Doom: the ogress Zaasha. The ogress was not what she appeared: she was the demi-goddess daughter of Zeboim, the Sea Goddess. Zassha had displeased her mother, and was banished to Spiralspace as punishment. Governor Indox learned of the true nature of Zaasha, and arranged for the Wartusk of Doom to head to Shipwrecker instead of Spiral. When Zaasha learned of her fate, she erupted with rage, her divine blood manifesting in a series of terrible storms. The survivors were forced to pledge their undying loyalty to her, and she set about establishing a cult on this backwater of a world.

Port Timberfall (ruins)
Founded: 919 ZY
Destroyed: 949 ZY
Description: For thirty years, this port harvested valuable lumber from the nearby forests. Slave human and runtlyn laborers hauled huge logs back to camp to be hauled into wildspace. The work was hard and growing harder by the day, as clear-cutting had rendered the surrounding hills barren. Trees had to be hauled for miles, a task that took days. Crops planted in the cleared land provided adequate food for the large slave plantations. Timberfall had grown to the size of a large town by the time of the Great Storm of 949 ZY. In that year, a great hurricane swept through the town, washing away the crops and killing half of the people. Those that survived fled into the surrounding forests.
Adventure Hooks
• Governor Indox has hired the PCs to present peace offerings to Zaasha. Indox hopes to appease the demi-goddess in hopes of reopening the lumber camp.
• The PCs have learned a ritual that will strip Zaasha of her divine powers and claim it as their own. They must travel to Shipwrecker and confront Zaasha at the location where her divine powers manifested, the ruins of Timberfall.
Today: The forests have buried the location of Timberfall. The caverns carved out by the ogre masters is now the domain of the Shipwrecker Fellows, a band of pirates.

Zaazan
Founded: 950 ZY
Description: After destroying the city of Timberfall, Zaasha cowed the survivors into migrating into the mountains, where she instructed them into building a temple-city to honor her. Construction has just begun; the city is barely more than a tent-city next to a quarry. The runtlyns slew and devoured the surviving humans. Zaasha can be found in a large cave, decorated with the wreckage of the Wartusk of Doom.
Adventure Hooks:
• The PCs have been hired to reclaim the treasures that were carried aboard the Wartusk of Doom, in particular, the Death Helm, before Zaasha discovers its secrets.
• The demi-goddess Zaasha has taken an interest in one of the PCs, and uses Dream spells to lure the PC to her. She intends to use the PC as a pawn in her plans of revenge and power.
Today: Rumors of some lost temple-city have persisted ever since the founding of Wrighters. Supposedly, the city is overgrown by thick forests and all but invisible from above. Strong storms in the area discourage investigation by Spelljammer, so it is unknown if this mythical city really exists. If it does, it is overrun by fanatical goblin shaman.
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby GMWestermeyer » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:48 am

night_druid wrote:OK, did a little work on the Spiralspace colonies while I'm sorta laid up with a pulled muscle in the back (ugh). I took some liberties with Shipwrecker; hope you approve :)

Spiralspace
When the ogres discovered Spiralspace in 917 ZY, the sphere was largely uninhabited and unknown to any merchant. Captain Indox made three expeditions to the sphere and in doing so established himself as governor of the sphere’s burgeoning new colonies. Despite being on the Empire’s frontier, Spiralspace had several large settlements. Governor Indox treats the sphere as his private fief, with large slave farms to provide test subjects for his insane experiments.

Shipwrecker
When discovered, this minor world had only one notable commodity worth exploiting: lumber. The ogres set up a lumber camp and set to work chopping down trees and exporting them. For thirty years, the camp operated smoothly, up until 949 ZY. In the spring of that year, the mammoth Wartusk of Doom was destroyed by a freak storm that shattered the ship and killed half the crew. Afterwards, the planet experienced violent storms that wrecked every ship that approached, and the planet was renamed “Shipwrecker”. The ogres abandoned the planet shortly thereafter.

Unknown to most, the reason for the storms can be traced to a particular passenger aboard the Wartusk of Doom: the ogress Zaasha. The ogress was not what she appeared: she was the demi-goddess daughter of Zeboim, the Sea Goddess. Zassha had displeased her mother, and was banished to Spiralspace as punishment. Governor Indox learned of the true nature of Zaasha, and arranged for the Wartusk of Doom to head to Shipwrecker instead of Spiral. When Zaasha learned of her fate, she erupted with rage, her divine blood manifesting in a series of terrible storms. The survivors were forced to pledge their undying loyalty to her, and she set about establishing a cult on this backwater of a world.

Port Timberfall (ruins)
Founded: 919 ZY
Destroyed: 949 ZY
Description: For thirty years, this port harvested valuable lumber from the nearby forests. Slave human and runtlyn laborers hauled huge logs back to camp to be hauled into wildspace. The work was hard and growing harder by the day, as clear-cutting had rendered the surrounding hills barren. Trees had to be hauled for miles, a task that took days. Crops planted in the cleared land provided adequate food for the large slave plantations. Timberfall had grown to the size of a large town by the time of the Great Storm of 949 ZY. In that year, a great hurricane swept through the town, washing away the crops and killing half of the people. Those that survived fled into the surrounding forests.
Adventure Hooks
• Governor Indox has hired the PCs to present peace offerings to Zaasha. Indox hopes to appease the demi-goddess in hopes of reopening the lumber camp.
• The PCs have learned a ritual that will strip Zaasha of her divine powers and claim it as their own. They must travel to Shipwrecker and confront Zaasha at the location where her divine powers manifested, the ruins of Timberfall.
Today: The forests have buried the location of Timberfall. The caverns carved out by the ogre masters is now the domain of the Shipwrecker Fellows, a band of pirates.

Zaazan
Founded: 950 ZY
Description: After destroying the city of Timberfall, Zaasha cowed the survivors into migrating into the mountains, where she instructed them into building a temple-city to honor her. Construction has just begun; the city is barely more than a tent-city next to a quarry. The runtlyns slew and devoured the surviving humans. Zaasha can be found in a large cave, decorated with the wreckage of the Wartusk of Doom.
Adventure Hooks:
• The PCs have been hired to reclaim the treasures that were carried aboard the Wartusk of Doom, in particular, the Death Helm, before Zaasha discovers its secrets.
• The demi-goddess Zaasha has taken an interest in one of the PCs, and uses Dream spells to lure the PC to her. She intends to use the PC as a pawn in her plans of revenge and power.
Today: Rumors of some lost temple-city have persisted ever since the founding of Wrighters. Supposedly, the city is overgrown by thick forests and all but invisible from above. Strong storms in the area discourage investigation by Spelljammer, so it is unknown if this mythical city really exists. If it does, it is overrun by fanatical goblin shaman.


That doesn't really fit with my concept of Shipwrecker, but I'm tired and might change my mind when i read it again after some sleep. :)
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:48 pm

GMWestermeyer wrote:That doesn't really fit with my concept of Shipwrecker, but I'm tired and might change my mind when i read it again after some sleep. :)


No problem; just let me know what changes you want made. :)
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby GMWestermeyer » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:34 am

I got Shipwrecker from the Roleaids module of the same name, it has a real south-west England/Cornwall feel, and I always intended Shipwrecker to follow that atmosphere.
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:31 am

GMWestermeyer wrote:I got Shipwrecker from the Roleaids module of the same name, it has a real south-west England/Cornwall feel, and I always intended Shipwrecker to follow that atmosphere.


Sure, no problem. I'll do a bit of a rewrite and repost a bit later. :)
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Re: Krynnspace - Zivilyn: the Radiant Empire

Postby night_druid » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:38 pm

Shipwrecker rewrite:

Spiralspace
When the ogres discovered Spiralspace in 917 ZY, the sphere was largely uninhabited and unknown to any merchant. Captain Indox made three expeditions to the sphere and in doing so established himself as governor of the sphere’s burgeoning new colonies. Despite being on the Empire’s frontier, Spiralspace had several large settlements. Governor Indox treats the sphere as his private fief, with large slave farms to provide test subjects for his insane experiments.

Shipwrecker
This small world had only one notable commodity the ogres considered worth exploiting: lumber. They established a small hill fort to oversee the operation, surrounded by lumber camps. For thirty years, the camps operated smoothly, up until 949 ZY. In the spring of that year, the mammoth Wartusk of Doom was destroyed by a freak gale that shattered the ship and killed half the crew. A series of violent gales has all but cut the planet off, for any ship that approached was wrecked by the storms. The planet was renamed “Shipwrecker” as a result.

Unknown to most, the reason for the storms can be traced to a particular passenger aboard the Wartusk of Doom: the ogress Zaasha. The ogress was not what she appeared: she was the demi-goddess daughter of Zeboim, the Sea Goddess. Zassha had displeased her mother, and was banished to Spiralspace as punishment. Governor Indox learned of the true nature of Zaasha, and arranged for the Wartusk of Doom to head to Shipwrecker instead of Spiral. When Zaasha learned of her fate, she erupted with rage, her divine blood manifesting in a series of terrible storms. The survivors were forced to pledge their undying loyalty to her, and she set about establishing a cult on this backwater of a world.

Fort Timmryk (ruins)
Founded: 919 ZY
Destroyed: 949 ZY
Description: This small, primitive settlement was built upon one the highest hills on the planet. Slave labourers scurried between Timmryk and the surrounding forests, hauling great logs back to be exported. The fort was surrounded by a large grassy down, as clear-cutting had pushed the forest back. The cleared land was used as grazing land for sheep to feed the slaves. Under the settlement was a great cairn, filled with the corpses of dead slaves.
The fort was destroyed in 949 ZY by a great killing gale that lasted several days. The wooden buildings collapsed due to the weight of so much rainfall, their foundations undermined by erosion. Survivors fled into the forests, taking what little they could.

Adventure Hooks
• Governor Indox has hired the PCs to present peace offerings to Zaasha. Indox hopes to appease the demi-goddess in hopes of reopening the lumber camp.
• The PCs have learned a ritual that will strip Zaasha of her divine powers and claim it as their own. They must travel to Shipwrecker and confront Zaasha at the location where her divine powers manifested, the ruins of Timmryk.
Today: The forests have reclaimed Timmryk’s hill. The cairns below, once filled with mud, are being cleared by an unknown, undead creature looking to turn it into its base.

Zaannii
Founded: 950 ZY
Description: After the destruction of Timmryk, the survivors fled into the forest. Drawn by some irresistible mystical force, they arrived at a clearing near the heart of the main continent. There, a beautiful, naked ogress appeared before them. Calling herself Stormwrecker, she commanded them to build for her a great megalithic monument to honour her. Unable to resist her charm, the survivors, mostly a mix of runtlyns, set about their work. The most charismatic became her consort-shamans, and to them she granted spell-casting abilities.
Zaannii is a small hill fort not far from the construction site of her megalithic monument. Storms and strong winds howling above the small town keep away any ship; the only way to approach is on foot. The town was hastily built and is very crude as a result. The largest structure is Stormwrecker’s palace, where her every whim is attended by her shaman. The structure was built, in part, by the wreckage of the Wartusk of Doom. The ship’s major helm serves as her throne, and the ship’s treasures are laid out at her feet. Her footstool is said to be the skull of the ship’s captain.
Adventure Hooks
• The PCs have been hired to reclaim the treasures that were carried aboard the Wartusk of Doom, in particular, the Major Helm, before Shipwrecker discovers its secrets.
• Shipwrecker has taken an interest in one of the PCs, and uses Dream spells to lure the PC to her. She intends to use the PC as a pawn in her plans of revenge and power.
Today: Visitors to Shipwrecker are constantly baffled by a series of great stone megalithic structures scattered across the planet. The largest is shaped somewhat like a great cyclone when seen from above. It is made of stones 12’ high and each weighs many tons. Priests speculate these structures play some role in Shipwrecker’s power, although they are unsure how. Annual ceremonies are held at these sites by fanatical goblin shaman.
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