Product List - what order?

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Product List - what order?

Post by Thorf » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:27 am

I'm trying to work out a logical order in which to present the product list. To do so, I've divided up the whole list into categories, but now I need to work out what order to present the categories in.

The issue is quite pressing, because I want to continue posting my Bibliography thread, but I don't want to change my mind and change the order later.

Anyway, the categories are:
  • Rules Sets
  • Accessories
  • Campaign Sources
  • Adventure Modules
  • Entry Level/Thunder Rift
  • AD&D Mystara (including Red Steel and Savage Coast)
  • Novels
Rules Sets is clearly number 1, and the last three listed are probably fine as 5, 6 and 7, but what about the rest?

Accessories includes the following products:

[PCRS] Player Character Record Sheets
AC1 The Shady Dragon Inn
AC2 Combat Shield/Treasure of the Hideous One
AC3 3-D Dragon Tiles/The Kidnapping of Princess Arelina
AC4 Book of Marvelous Magic
AC5 Player Character Record Sheets
AC6 Player Character Record Sheets
AC7 Master Player's Screen/The Spindle
AC8 3-D Dragon Tiles/The Revenge of Rusak (labelled AC3)
AC9 Creature Catalogue
AC10 Bestiary of Dragons and Giants
AC11 The Book of Wondrous Inventions
DDREF1 Character Record Sheets
DMR1 Dungeon Master Screen/Escape from Thunder Rift
DMR2 Creature Catalogue

Campaign Sources:

GAZ1 Grand Duchy of Karameikos
GAZ2 Emirates of Ylaruam
GAZ3 Principalities of Glantri
GAZ4 Kingdom of Ierendi
GAZ5 Elves of Alfheim
GAZ6 Dwarves of Rockhome
GAZ7 The Northern Reaches
GAZ8 The Five Shires
GAZ9 Minrothad Guilds
GAZ10 Orcs of Thar
GAZ11 Republic of Darokin
GAZ12 Golden Khan of Ethengar
GAZ13 The Shadow Elves
GAZ14 Atruaghin Clans
[DotE] Dawn of the Emperors
TM1 The Western Countries
TM2 The Eastern Countries
PC1 Tall Tales of the Wee Folk
PC2 Top Ballista
PC3 The Sea People
PC4 Night Howlers
[HW] D&D Hollow World
HWR1 Sons of Azca
HWR2 Kingdom of Nithia
HWR3 Milenian Empire
HWQ1 The Milenian Sceptre
HWA1 Nightwail
HWA2 Nightrage
HWA3 Nightstorm
[WotI] Wrath of the Immortals
[CoM] Champions of Mystara
AC1010 Poor Wizard's Almanac
AC1011 Poor Wizard's Almanac II
AC1012 Poor Wizard's Almanac III
[AC1013] Joshuan's Almanac

Adventure Modules:

B1 In Search of the Unknown
B2 The Keep on the Borderlands
B3 (green) The Palace of the Silver Princess
B3 (orange) The Palace of the Silver Princess
B4 The Lost City
B5 Horror on the Hill
B6 The Veiled Society
B7 Rahasia
B8 Journey to the Rock
B9 Castle Caldwell and Beyond
B1-9 In Search of Adventure
B10 Night's Dark Terror
B11 King's Festival
B12 Queen's Harvest
BSOLO Ghost of Lion Castle
X1 The Isle of Dread
X1 The Isle of Dread
X2 Castle Amber (Château d'Ambreville)
X3 Curse of Xanathon
X4 Master of the Desert Nomads
X5 Temple of Death
X6 Quagmire!
X7 The War Rafts of Kron
X8 Drums on Fire Mountain
X9 The Savage Coast
X10 Red Arrow, Black Shield
X11 Saga of the Shadow Lord
X12 Skarda's Mirror
X13 Crown of Ancient Glory
XL1 Quest for the Heartstone
M1 solo Blizzard Pass
M2 solo Maze of the Riddling Minotaur
XSOLO Lathan's Gold
XS2 Thunderdelve Mountain
CM1 Test of the Warlords
CM2 Death's Ride
CM3 Sabre River
CM4 Earthshaker!
CM5 Mystery of the Snow Pearls
CM6 Where Chaos Reigns
CM7 The Tree of Life
CM8 The Endless Stair
CM9 Legacy of Blood
M1 Into the Maelstrom
M2 Vengeance of Alphaks
M3 Twilight Calling
M4 Five Coins for a Kingdom
M5 Talons of Night
IM1 The Immortal Storm
IM2 The Wrath of Olympus
IM3 The Best of Intentions
DA1 Adventures in Blackmoor
DA2 Temple of the Frog
DA3 City of the Gods
DA4 The Duchy of Ten
O1 The Gem and the Staff
O2 Blade of Vengeance
RPGA1 Rahasia
RPGA2 Black Opal Eye
DDA1 Arena of Thyatis
DDA2 Legions of Thyatis
DDA3 Eye of Traldar
DDA4 The Dymrak Dread

Another possibility is to split Hollow World off into its own category like I've done for Thunder Rift, because currently I have the Hollow World adventures listed as sources rather than modules, but I want to keep all the Hollow World stuff together.

I also listed the Blackmoor modules as campaign sources, since they're the only primary sources of official info for Mystara on Blackmoor. But they are adventures too. Which is it best to list them under?

Finally, note that each series will have its own sub-section.

Any ideas? Preferences? Which products do you think should come in which order? Should the campaign sources go next after the rules, or should they come after modules or accessories?
Last edited by Thorf on Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by Thorf » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:12 am

Hmm... One option would be to start new threads for each section, which would allow me to reorder them at any time with a minimum of fuss. Perhaps I should just do that for now.

I'm still interested in your ideas, though. :)

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by multizar » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:28 am

I would list the Blackmoor series as adventures. Yes they are loaded with campaign information but they are first and foremost adventures.
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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by Thorf » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:09 am

Yes, I would tend to agree. I edited the first post to show the DA series as part of the Modules category.

That still leaves the Hollow World problem, though. Shall I give it a category of its own?

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by multizar » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:43 am

Thorf wrote:Yes, I would tend to agree. I edited the first post to show the DA series as part of the Modules category.

That still leaves the Hollow World problem, though. Shall I give it a category of its own?

I would. The Hollow World is a setting all to itself (you could make the same argument for Blackmoor). The least I would do would be to put the box set and the accessories in Campaign Sources and the Adventures into the Modules category. This is just my opinion :)
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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by Thorf » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:51 am

multizar wrote:
Thorf wrote:Yes, I would tend to agree. I edited the first post to show the DA series as part of the Modules category.

That still leaves the Hollow World problem, though. Shall I give it a category of its own?

I would. The Hollow World is a setting all to itself (you could make the same argument for Blackmoor). The least I would do would be to put the box set and the accessories in Campaign Sources and the Adventures into the Modules category. This is just my opinion :)
The trouble is that I don't want to split up the accessories and adventures too much. I suppose the best way to look at it is that categories for campaign settings have their own (unlabelled) sub-categories (rules, accessories, campaign sources, adventures). I already have things ordered that way within each sub-setting on my master spreadsheet anyway. :)

You're right about Blackmoor too - in fact, all the sub-settings deserve their own category. I'll go and edit the list above now...

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by Thorf » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:58 am

Okay I changed my mind and posted it again instead.

Here's the order I've decided on so far:
  1. Rules Sets
  2. Accessories
  3. Campaign Sources
  4. Adventure Modules
  5. Blackmoor
  6. Hollow World
  7. Thunder Rift (including all Entry Level products)
  8. AD&D Mystara
  9. Red Steel and Savage Coast
  10. Dragon
  11. Dungeon
  12. Novels
Accessories
Player Character Record Sheets
AC Series
DDREF1 Character Record Sheets
DMR1 Dungeon Master Screen/Escape from Thunder Rift
DMR2 Creature Catalogue

Campaign Sources
GAZ Series
Dawn of the Emperors
TM1 The Western Countries
TM2 The Eastern Countries
PC1 Tall Tales of the Wee Folk
PC2 Top Ballista
PC3 The Sea People
PC4 Night Howlers
[WotI] Wrath of the Immortals
[CoM] Champions of Mystara
AC1010 Poor Wizard's Almanac
AC1011 Poor Wizard's Almanac II
AC1012 Poor Wizard's Almanac III
[AC1013] Joshuan's Almanac

Adventure Modules
B1 In Search of the Unknown
B2 The Keep on the Borderlands
B3 (green) The Palace of the Silver Princess
B3 (orange) The Palace of the Silver Princess
B4 The Lost City
B5 Horror on the Hill
B6 The Veiled Society
B7 Rahasia
B8 Journey to the Rock
B9 Castle Caldwell and Beyond
B1-9 In Search of Adventure
B10 Night's Dark Terror
B11 King's Festival
B12 Queen's Harvest
BSOLO Ghost of Lion Castle
X1 The Isle of Dread
X1 The Isle of Dread
X2 Castle Amber (Château d'Ambreville)
X3 Curse of Xanathon
X4 Master of the Desert Nomads
X5 Temple of Death
X6 Quagmire!
X7 The War Rafts of Kron
X8 Drums on Fire Mountain
X9 The Savage Coast
X10 Red Arrow, Black Shield
X11 Saga of the Shadow Lord
X12 Skarda's Mirror
X13 Crown of Ancient Glory
XL1 Quest for the Heartstone
M1 solo Blizzard Pass
M2 solo Maze of the Riddling Minotaur
XSOLO Lathan's Gold
XS2 Thunderdelve Mountain
CM1 Test of the Warlords
CM2 Death's Ride
CM3 Sabre River
CM4 Earthshaker!
CM5 Mystery of the Snow Pearls
CM6 Where Chaos Reigns
CM7 The Tree of Life
CM8 The Endless Stair
CM9 Legacy of Blood
M1 Into the Maelstrom
M2 Vengeance of Alphaks
M3 Twilight Calling
M4 Five Coins for a Kingdom
M5 Talons of Night
IM1 The Immortal Storm
IM2 The Wrath of Olympus
IM3 The Best of Intentions
O1 The Gem and the Staff
O2 Blade of Vengeance
RPGA1 Rahasia
RPGA2 Black Opal Eye
DDA1 Arena of Thyatis
DDA2 Legions of Thyatis
DDA3 Eye of Traldar
DDA4 The Dymrak Dread

Blackmoor
DA1 Adventures in Blackmoor
DA2 Temple of the Frog
DA3 City of the Gods
DA4 The Duchy of Ten

Hollow World
[HW] D&D Hollow World
HWR1 Sons of Azca
HWR2 Kingdom of Nithia
HWR3 Milenian Empire
HWQ1 The Milenian Sceptre
HWA1 Nightwail
HWA2 Nightrage
HWA3 Nightstorm

I should also point out that within each of the main categories, each series gets its own sub-category. So for example in Adventure Modules there's BASIC, BASIC SOLO, EXPERT, EXPERT SOLO, INVISIBLE INK, COMPANION, MASTER, IMMORTAL, ONE-ON-ONE, RPGA, and DDA (not sure what to call this series, though).

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by multizar » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:07 am

Thorf wrote:...and DDA (not sure what to call this series, though).
Yeah, I never did get what DDA meant.

DDA....the "new" B series! :lol:

Looking at your list, I thought I owned everything about Mystara, but I do not think I have RPGA2 Black Opal Eye. I will have to look when I get off work.
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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by multizar » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:10 am

I did find this at the vaults

http://pandius.com/acronyms.html
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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by Thorf » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:21 am

Yeah, some of them are weird. I think DDA is supposed to be D&D Adventure, but it seems a bit silly to me. ;)

Thanks for the link!

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by Plaag » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:31 am

Module Code Definitions

So seems you are right Thorf.

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by Havard » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:20 pm

D&D Adventure yes.

Thorf, I agree that your latest approach to categories works the best. I was wondering, will you be including lists for apocrypha material as well?

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by Thorf » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:14 pm

Havard wrote:Thorf, I agree that your latest approach to categories works the best. I was wondering, will you be including lists for apocrypha material as well?
You can see my plan for bibliographical lists in the overview thread here. Obviously I'm going to use the same conventions I'm using here with the Database too. :)

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by AllanP » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:44 pm

multizar wrote:Looking at your list, I thought I owned everything about Mystara, but I do not think I have RPGA2 Black Opal Eye. I will have to look when I get off work.
IIRC module B7 Rahasia is an amalgam of modules RPGA1 and RPGA2 (Rahasia and Black Opal Eye

Thorf -

one module that appears to be missing from your list is The Jade Hare product number 9259, written by John Nephew. I think it was originally another RPGA adventure - but I might be wrong on that. I have a ESD version of it where it has a copyright date of 1992 and under the D&D logo has the phrase "A DRAGON MASTER game adventure".

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by Thorf » Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:18 am

AllanP wrote:
multizar wrote:Looking at your list, I thought I owned everything about Mystara, but I do not think I have RPGA2 Black Opal Eye. I will have to look when I get off work.
IIRC module B7 Rahasia is an amalgam of modules RPGA1 and RPGA2 (Rahasia and Black Opal Eye
Interesting. I really don't know a lot about these two modules, but they were on the product list I originally used, so they're here too. Does anyone have copies of them so we can confirm? I'm interested to know what maps and art is used in them, and of course I'd like scans of the covers at some point too. For now I'll put them at the very bottom of the adventures section, I think.
one module that appears to be missing from your list is The Jade Hare product number 9259, written by John Nephew. I think it was originally another RPGA adventure - but I might be wrong on that. I have a ESD version of it where it has a copyright date of 1992 and under the D&D logo has the phrase "A DRAGON MASTER game adventure".
This one is actually in the Thunder Rift section at the moment. But I must confess that although I have the PDF I've never read it.

On the same note, I have all three of the Entry Level boxed sets under Thunder Rift, even though Havard recently told me that Dragon's Den is not set there. Again, it's a matter of wanting to keep the different sets of a single series together. Havard, do you have any ideas for how to resolve this?

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by OldDawg » Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:42 am

Thorf,

this is the order I recommend for Product Type (but I don't thing it matters, too much)

Product Type:
Rules Set
Campaign Source
Accessory
Adventure
Dragon
Dungeon
Novel
Other

Other = video games, posters, LJN puffies and toys, podcasts, web supplements, music, movies, etc.

For Systems, I'd suggest:

System:
OD&D
Classic
Classic:B or Classic:Holmes
Classic:BX
Classic:BECMI
Classic:RC/Entry
Fast Play
D&D Adventure
2E
3.0
3.5
4E
Other

With the B, B/X, BECMI, RC and a blank [] as sub-choices for Classic

For Setting:
Generic
Generic:Ghyr
Mystara
Mystara:Brun
Mystara:Brun:Known World
Mystara:Brun:Known World:Karameikos
Mystara:Brun:Known World:Karameikos:Wulfwolde Hills
Mystara:Brun:Known World:Karameikos:Specularum
Mystara:Hollow World:Alphatian Neatherum
Mystara:Patera:Myoshima
Mystara:Universe:Damocles
Mystara:Universe:Old Alphatia
Mystara:Planar:Outer Planes:Asgard
Mystara:Blackmoor
Thunder Rift
Greyhawk
Greyhawk:Isle of Dread
etc.

Like with Classic under System, these setting categories would be nested with a default [] option included when sub-choices are available.

Finally, I will make another appeal for an Associated Canon Set Field

Associated Canon Set:
Generic
Pre-Gazetteer
Blackmoor
Gazetteer
PC
Hollow World
VoPA/KWG
Challenger
Mystara 2E
Red Steel
Odessey
Thunder Rift
Apochryphal
Apochryphal:Classic
Apochryphal:Heard (if you want to keep his non VoPA/KWG together)
Apochryphal:2e
Apochryphal:3e
Apochryphal:3.5e
Apochrypal:4e
Other

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Example Fields

Post by OldDawg » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:02 am

This is a follow-up to my post above, showing all of the basic-level modules and their fields

B1
Setting: Generic
System: Classic:Holmes
ACS: Generic
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B1 (Mono)
Setting:Greyhawk
System: Classic:Holmes
ACS: Generic
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B2
Setting: Generic
System: Classic:Holmes
ACS: Generic
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B2 (Mono)
Setting: Greyhawk
System: Classic:Holmes
ACS: Generic
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B3
Setting: Generic:Haven
System: Classic:B/X
ACS: Generic
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B3 (Orange)
Setting:Mystara:Brun:Adri Varma Plateau:Gulliva
System: Classic:B/X
ACS: Apochryphal
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B4
Setting:Generic:Cynidicea
System:Classic:B/X
ACS: Generic
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B5
Setting:Generic
System:Classic:BECMI
ACS: Generic
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B6
Setting:Mystara:Brun:Known World:Karameikos:Specularum
System: Classic:BECMI
ACS: Pre-Gazetteer
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B7
Setting: Generic
System: Classic:BECMI
ACS: Generic
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B8
Setting: Generic
System: Classic:BECMI
ACS: Generic
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B9
Setting: Generic
System: Classic:BECMI
ACS: Generic
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B10
Setting: Mystara:Brun:Known World:Karameikos
System: Classic:BECMI
ACS: Pre-Gazetteer
Type: Adventure
Series: B
[Note: adventure chapters can be individually listed, for refined Setting]

B11
Setting: Mystara:Brun:Known World:Karameikos:Stallenford
System: Classic:BECMI
ACS: Gazetteer
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B12
Setting: Mystara:Brun:Known World:Karameikos:Penhaligon
System: Classic:BECMI
ACS: Gazetteer
Type: Adventure
Series: B

B1-9
Setting: Mystara:Brun:Known World:Karameikos
System: Classic:BECMI
ACS: Gazetteer
Type: Adventure
Series: B
[Note: separate entries for parts for refined setting]

BSOLO
Setting: Mystara:Brun:Known World:Ethengar Khanates
System: Classic:BECMI (or is this B/X?)
ACS: Pre-Gazetteer
Type: Adventure
Series: B

M1
Setting: Mystara:Brun:Known World:Five Shires:Cruth Mountains
System: Classic:BECMI (or is this B/X?)
ACS: Pre-Gazetteer
Type: Adventure
Series: M* (Invisible Ink)

DDA1
Setting: Mystara:Brun:Known World:Thyatis:Thyatis City
System: Classic:RC/Entry
ACS: Gazetteer
Type: Adventure
Series: DDA

DDA2
Setting: Mystara:Brun:Known World:Thyatis:Thyatis City
System: Classic:RC/Entry
ACS: Gazetteer
Type: Adventure
Series: DDA

DDA3
Setting: Mystara:Brun:Known World:Karameikos:Luln (or Black Eagle Barony)
System: Classic:RC/Entry
ACS: Challenger (or Gazetteer)
Type: Adventure
Series: DDA

DDA4
Setting: Mystara:Brun:Known World:Karameikos:Dymrak Forest
System: Classic:RC/Entry
ACS: Challenger (or Gazetteer)
Type: Adventure
Series: DDA

Some modules, such as B10 and B1-9, span several locales, and it may be useful to break up their individual sections using a mother-daughter link to better isolate where action takes place.

1) Note that even within a series, modules correspond to different ACS.

2) DDA1-2 were written post-HW, and one shadowy figure is mentioned as a HW wizard, but everything within them is in accord with Gazetteer era Canon

3) DDA3-4 were put out as Entry products (the other "half" of the Challenger canon set, and hence the selection), but again, they are compatible with Gaz-era canon.

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by OldDawg » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:34 am

Thorf wrote:
AllanP wrote:
multizar wrote:Looking at your list, I thought I owned everything about Mystara, but I do not think I have RPGA2 Black Opal Eye. I will have to look when I get off work.
IIRC module B7 Rahasia is an amalgam of modules RPGA1 and RPGA2 (Rahasia and Black Opal Eye
Interesting. I really don't know a lot about these two modules, but they were on the product list I originally used, so they're here too. Does anyone have copies of them so we can confirm?
Rahasia has actually been described using three different rules systems:
  • The original Daystar West version was either OD&D or Holmes (cover here)
  • RPGA1 (1983) was under B/X (cover here) - it's sister adventure was RPGA2 Black Opal Eye (cover here)
  • B7 (1984) was BECMI

Jade Hare was a give-away in 1992 (cover here)

In so far as we are grabbing generics and Thunder Rift, there are several other items (and here and here and here) that belong in our list.
On the same note, I have all three of the Entry Level boxed sets under Thunder Rift, even though Havard recently told me that Dragon's Den is not set there. Again, it's a matter of wanting to keep the different sets of a single series together. Havard, do you have any ideas for how to resolve this?
Using the fields that I suggested above,

Dragon's Den
Setting: Generic: Greetland(:Wyrmhaven,Wild Dragon Den, and League of the Red Serpent)
System: RC/Entry
ACS: Generic (or Other)
Type: Adventure
Series: Adventure Pack

Thus, although they share the same system as TR and the other Adventure Packs, it occupies a different ACS and Setting.

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by Thorf » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:52 am

Perhaps I should have been more clear, but this thread is more about how to present the order of the product list than what to present for each product. Also, the reason the list is not comprehensive is that it is for the Atlas, not the Database. More specifically, as I said above, what I'm currently trying to work out is the order of presentation for the Bibliography of the Atlas. This will probably have ramifications for the Database, but order is not really much of an issue there anyway - it will most likely be customisable.

Actually, the fact that I'm working with lists rather than a database is what makes this whole issue relevant in the first place, because you have to make a decision about where to put each item in the list - and multiple entries are not an option.

So, to sum up: the only items of interest in this list (i.e. the only things that are sources for the Atlas) are explicitly or implicitly Mystaran products. However, if one product of a series is in, all the other products will be listed too for completeness. Also, all classic Dungeons & Dragons products from the birth of Mystara until its conversion to AD&D are counted as implicitly belonging to Mystara.

On another note, what exactly do you guys mean about apocryphal stuff? I don't think I quite understand. I count all the TSR products for Mystara as official, including Dragon articles and AD&D 2nd Edition. D&D 3rd Edition too, for that matter.

Lastly, about the continuity stuff: it's definitely going to be included in the Database, yes. :)

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by Havard » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:53 am

Thorf wrote:Actually, the fact that I'm working with lists rather than a database is what makes this whole issue relevant in the first place, because you have to make a decision about where to put each item in the list - and multiple entries are not an option.
I suppose you could still list Dragon's Den under Thunder Rift products, even if it isn't set there. As OldDawg says, it can be considered generic, though it is set in the Greetlands, which is actually Karameikos with all the names altered.
On another note, what exactly do you guys mean about apocryphal stuff? I don't think I quite understand. I count all the TSR products for Mystara as official, including Dragon articles and AD&D 2nd Edition. D&D 3rd Edition too, for that matter.
Apocrypha would ofcourse be items that are not considered canon, but that still deserve mention.

If we agree that canon are the following:
* All Classic D&D products published by TSR (Including modues focusing on Ghyr, Thunder Rift, Aelos etc)
* All 2E/3E/4E products with references to Mystara (or Mystara components like the Isle of Dread) published by TSR, WotC or Paizo

That still leaves things like:
* First Quest novels that are not specifically set in Mystara
* Early Blackmoor/Arneson products published by JG and others (FFC, Domesday Book, AiF, Different Worlds Magazine)
* The D20 Blackmoor line
* CAS Averoigne stories
* Wee Warriors Modules
* Islandia products (including TSR Vapourware)
* Odyssey line products mentioned by OldDawg (ToC, Jakandor etc)
* Frank Mentzer's Aquaria/Empyrea (not yet published)

I guess the above is what I mean by apocrypha. :)

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by AllanP » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:03 pm

Thorf wrote:
AllanP wrote:one module that appears to be missing from your list is The Jade Hare product number 9259, written by John Nephew. I think it was originally another RPGA adventure - but I might be wrong on that. I have a ESD version of it where it has a copyright date of 1992 and under the D&D logo has the phrase "A DRAGON MASTER game adventure".
This one is actually in the Thunder Rift section at the moment. But I must confess that although I have the PDF I've never read it.
re Jade Hare, IIRC correctly it has references to Al-Kadim and while not explicitly stated would appear to be set in Ylarum
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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by Havard » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:16 pm

AllanP wrote: re Jade Hare, IIRC correctly it has references to Al-Kadim and while not explicitly stated would appear to be set in Ylarum
I can confirm this. The module mentions Al-Kalim and starts out in the village of Dar el-Tamyye.

How about ST1 Up the Garden Path?

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Re: Product List - what order?

Post by OldDawg » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:16 pm

Thorf wrote:Perhaps I should have been more clear, but this thread is more about how to present the order of the product list than what to present for each product. Also, the reason the list is not comprehensive is that it is for the Atlas, not the Database.
That was not my impression from the thread starter, but your thread, your rules. So, just to clarify, you are actually looking to arrange all products that contain some element of geography/location in an index (as opposed to the database fields).

If that's the case, then breaking things out by product type does not serve your purpose of managing the information for the reader. Instead, you want to list by locale:

Examples:

Generic and Unaffiliated Settings
AC1 (Supplement)
"Ravellia and the Dragon Eggs" (Adventure), in AC10 (Supplement)
..., Caves of Questernon: B1 (Adventure)
..., Haven: B3 (Adventure)
..., Vacros: MSOLO2 (Adventure)
Mystara
PWA (Campaign Source)
..., Brun
Rules Cyclopedia (Rules Set)
..., Known World
..., Karameikos
B10 (Adventure)
Gaz1 (Campaign Source)
[War Machine Adventure] in Companion Set (Rules Set)
..., Specularum
B6 (Adventure)
"The Davinos Complaint" (Adventure) in Gaz1 (Supplement)
..., Wulfholde Hills, Xitaqa (Ruins of): Chapter XX in B10 (Adventure)
etc.

[Seems you cannot do layout by spacing :? ]

That's if you want to guide the reader as per an index. If all you want is a true Bibliography, then just run everything together alphabetically, because the product type clustering is meaningless in this context - a non-regular won't automatically know if e.g. AC9 is a Campaign Source, Supplement, or Adventure.
because you have to make a decision about where to put each item in the list - and multiple entries are not an option.
Why not? If this is an independent index and not the Database, you can break things down to the page number if you want to:

Mystara, Brun, Known World, Emirates, Kirkuk: Gaz2 [pp. 38-52] or
..., Kirkuk: Gaz2 [pp. 38-52];

Kirkuk (Settlement in Emirates, Known World, Brun, Mystara): Gaz2 [pp. 38-52]

The first types of entry would be for nesting, the last for non-nested entries.
Indeed, that kind of referencing would be of use to even the most well-versed among us.
However, if one product of a series is in, all the other products will be listed too for completeness. Also, all classic Dungeons & Dragons products from the birth of Mystara until its conversion to AD&D are counted as implicitly belonging to Mystara.
Authoritative completeness should be the goal, even if it means bringing in tangential items. With a locale index scheme, you can readily point out the things that don't normally "belong." And you are aware that a few Classic (if we extend to the term to B and B/X) products pre-date the birth of the Known World/Mystara? [I'm feeling peckish at this point, sorry]. There are also older items affiliated with OD&D that we periodically try to shoehorn into Mystara.
On another note, what exactly do you guys mean about apocryphal stuff? I don't think I quite understand. I count all the TSR products for Mystara as official, including Dragon articles and AD&D 2nd Edition. D&D 3rd Edition too, for that matter.
Therein lies the rub. I disagree with this strongly as a conflationary fallacy. I recognize my view is a minority within the community - and GP and I got into it on the old boards over this issue - but I don't consider Dragon and Dungeon articles as official sources of information. Not that I wholesale dismiss them, but they do not carry the correct liscense imprimatur. For me, it is a matter of set-theory and keeping definitions and relationships correct. So, I offer these as working definitions:

Associated Canon Set: A collection of products that are internally consist with one another up to author error and corrections and that share a common game world outlook and editorial oversight.

Apochrypha: A collection of products designed for a specific game world but that do not belong to an established Associated Canon Set of that world, failing to satisfy one or more criteria and having no general relationship to other Apochryphal products of the same game world.


I would consider most Dungeon and Dragon articles as Mystaran Apochrypha. VoPA/KWG would qualify as its own distinct ACS because they satisfy 1) a shared world view, 2) were performed under the same oversight (here authorial), and 3) are sufficiently numerous to warrant classification (the no-singleton rule).

Now here is the interesting test case: lupins and the Savage Coast. X9, VoPA, Red Steel, and Lupin Breeds all have variance in their depiction of the subject that cannot be waved off as minor inconsistencies (the degree of incongruence varies pairwise). As much as we might like to square the circle, they are different presentations; and yet, these products, properly understood, are not part of the same world views. They belong to different ACS: Pre-Gazetteer (X9), VoPA (VoPA/KWG), Red Steel (Red Steel/Odessey), and Apochrypha:Heard (Breeds).

Understood in this context, you know that X9 is fully compatible with the rest of X1-13, e.g, or that VoPA's Renardy is compatible with VoPA's Heldannic Knights, etc.

You can draw a circle around everything and call it the Official Set, but that shouldn't erase the meaningful distinctions within.

Havard's suggestions would fall under Generic, Other, or constitute their own ACS (ZG Blackmoor being a good example), rather than Mystaran Apochrypha. When the topic of conversation moves to the database and extending the matter to fan-works, this structure remains sound. Most of the stuff at the Vaults and elsewhere would be under Fanonical Apochrypha, but a few would be their own ACS like the MA, Demographia Mystara, World of Mystaros, GazF, GazGG, etc.

Last thing: not all "Entry" products are TR or Generic; DDA3-4 are "Entry" products.

Okay, I'll shut up and go away now.

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