Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Birchbeer » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:28 am

Gecko wrote:
Hugin wrote:While looking into ocean currents and how they might look on Mystara, I first wanted to confirm where the various lines of latitude cross the Mystara map. Unfortunately, and it really shouldn't be a surprise, I couldn't do this. Even the PWA II contradicts itself ...


Hasn't this problem come up before? It seems to also vary based on what map projection is used or something, right?

Of course we have standardized and universally divided-up the globe of our world's lattitude and longetude (man my spelling is attrocious today, my apologies :facepalm:) into 60 seconds, 60 minutes, and 90/360 degrees based on an inheritance from Bablyonian mathematics. Maybe in-character mystaran cartographers have two (or three) competing systems (ie Thyatian vs. Alphatian, or something), especially when you add in the complexeties of the polar openings (ie is 90 degrees considered in space in the middle of the polar openings? The smallest diameter rim? edge of the outerworld darklands? what/where?)

Greg W.


Yeah this has been up for debate in a few places... I usually work off of Old Dawg's map and that has the Arctic circle going through the great bay (My map illustrates this with a line of multiple colors). I believe our Italian friends have a different position of the Arctic circle. And Hugin is right, even the cannon isn't exactly sure where stuff is on the globe (I get the impression they threw stuff at developers and didn't concern themselves with "trivial" things like a planet's arctic circle ;)

I don't think in this thread we should re-open that discussion, as it's not very cut/dry. We could just assume that the currents work in a way that work regardless 60 degrees north is... not a perfect solution, but I think a fair one so we can proceed (and adjust later as needed). Does that make sense?
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Birchbeer » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:00 pm

Okay, here are two tiny links for the maps we can work off of:
AC1000(Thorf's Original) - http://****.com/3k8nzkj
AC1010 - http://****.com/3pvloof

The 72 Mile map I used from the Alamanac has some changes from the Dawn of Empires, major changes are: Nuntar island's coast is altered, it doesn't show Qeodhar's position and Aquas shifted to the southwest by one hex.

I'm doing things in layers... so this should allow for multiple views of what we think the currents may be. I might be slow on the initial drafts of currents, but I hope to have something posted Monday morning. (A side project I have is to transfer a bunch of the maps I made from my old site to a new, map only site...)
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Hugin » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:16 pm

Gecko wrote:
Hugin wrote:While looking into ocean currents and how they might look on Mystara, I first wanted to confirm where the various lines of latitude cross the Mystara map. Unfortunately, and it really shouldn't be a surprise, I couldn't do this. Even the PWA II contradicts itself ...

Hasn't this problem come up before? It seems to also vary based on what map projection is used or something, right?

Oh ya, it's come up quite a few times, but as far as I've seen and been involved in those discussions, it generally just compares the markings from map to map. What I was/am doing here is establishing how much land actually exists (i.e. is mapped) north to south and then see where the latitudes fall. Well, at least that's the experiment I'm running with.

...especially when you add in the complexeties of the polar openings (ie is 90 degrees considered in space in the middle of the polar openings? The smallest diameter rim? edge of the outerworld darklands? what/where?)

This is certainly a huge wrinkle in developing things. However, I don't think we can evaluate oceanic or atmospheric currents without first coming to some conclusions regarding latitudes.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Birchbeer » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:44 pm

Hugin wrote:This is certainly a huge wrinkle in developing things. However, I don't think we can evaluate oceanic or atmospheric currents without first coming to some conclusions regarding latitudes.


I agree with you it should be figured out, but I think it probably should be in another thread so as this one doesn't get bogged down.

Another issue is... what is the the definitive cannon map we can work off of. I used Old Dawg's non-cannon map because it matched up to some of the Master maps I was familiar with. I'm sure some of the other Brun continent and world maps were derived from the same sources, but with different realization when redrawn (as a map maker I know I tend to "edit" errors I find and note them).

So first things second... what map is our definitive world map for Mystara? Then let's properly calculate the latitudes per a normal earth model. Then... Ocean Currents and Jet Streams :)
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Chimpman » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:45 pm

Birchbeer wrote:So first things second... what map is our definitive world map for Mystara? Then let's properly calculate the latitudes per a normal earth model. Then... Ocean Currents and Jet Streams :)

It's a non-hex map, but shouldn't it be this one? Outer World: World Map, non-hex
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Hugin » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:15 pm

Chimpman wrote:
Birchbeer wrote:So first things second... what map is our definitive world map for Mystara? Then let's properly calculate the latitudes per a normal earth model. Then... Ocean Currents and Jet Streams :)

It's a non-hex map, but shouldn't it be this one? Outer World: World Map, non-hex

By my math, calculations, and number-crunching :ugeek: this causes things to work out such that 1° of latitude equals one 72-mile hex (for the lower latitudes; see note below). In my eyes, this is just as neat and tidy as 1° equally 60 miles, and takes Mystara from being significantly smaller than Earth to being slightly larger (about 1.04 times larger), with a circumference of 25,920 miles.

Here's a comparison of the two standards;
Code: Select all
                       @ 60 miles/1°      @ 72miles/1°
Thyatis City at hex 33 [40°N]     or     [33°N]
Glantri City at hex 40 [48°N]     or     [40°N]
Landfall at hex 47     [56°N]     or     [47°N]
Oceansend at hex 52.5  [63°N]     or     [52.5°N]
Alpha at hex 60        [72°N]     or     [60°N]
Farend at hex 64.5     [77.5°N]   or     [64.5°N]


Note: By comparing this map with what we actually have mapped out in hex maps, this map is not accurate at the higher latitudes. For example, there is more land mapped out on hex-maps between Thyatis City and Alpha than this non-hex map shows.

The next thing to examine is the effect this has on the Hollow World, Mystara's thickness, and the polar openings.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby BardicFire » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:46 pm

As this project IS intended to be part of the Atlas of Mystara, I say Definitive Base World Map to work off of should be something developed by Thorf, unless of course, it's canon, but still I do prefer his Updated stuff over Replica. Anyone with a different opinion please speak up.

Did everyone see my last post about Newer the source the higher it should be recognised? just wondering if everyone agrees with that statement.

Also, Just a question to keep things Coordinated, does anyone think our current discussion about Polar Openings and Latitude is getting off topic enough that we should create a new Thread for it? I just want to make sure we give every branch of development it's own place.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Chimpman » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:15 pm

BardicFire wrote:Did everyone see my last post about Newer the source the higher it should be recognised? just wondering if everyone agrees with that statement.

I think that should be the general rule, however we'll still have to deal with open issues individually. It's very possible that in some cases the newer material conflicts with several references from older material, in which case we'll need to make a judgement call.

BardicFire wrote:Also, Just a question to keep things Coordinated, does anyone think our current discussion about Polar Openings and Latitude is getting off topic enough that we should create a new Thread for it? I just want to make sure we give every branch of development it's own place.

Probably, but even so I'd search through the existing threads before making a new one. I feel like this is a topic that we've talked about for ages so there must be some pre-existing threads on the subject.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Hugin » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:04 pm

Agreed on both counts, gentlemen.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Chimpman » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:45 pm

Hugin wrote:Agreed on both counts, gentlemen.

Ladies and gentlemen... and chimps ;)
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Hugin » Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:37 am

BardicFire wrote:As this project IS intended to be part of the Atlas of Mystara, I say Definitive Base World Map to work off of should be something developed by Thorf, unless of course, it's canon, but still I do prefer his Updated stuff over Replica. Anyone with a different opinion please speak up.

As an additional comment on this, I am now relying on your massive Eastern Brun 24-mile hex map as a standardization map for my research.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Gecko » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:06 pm

Hugin wrote:Note: By comparing this map with what we actually have mapped out in hex maps, this map is not accurate at the higher latitudes. For example, there is more land mapped out on hex-maps between Thyatis City and Alpha than this non-hex map shows.


At this scale you have to keep in mind the limitations of the type of projection being used on the map.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Hugin » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:49 pm

Gecko wrote:
Hugin wrote:Note: By comparing this map with what we actually have mapped out in hex maps, this map is not accurate at the higher latitudes. For example, there is more land mapped out on hex-maps between Thyatis City and Alpha than this non-hex map shows.


At this scale you have to keep in mind the limitations of the type of projection being used on the map.

My understanding of this 'projection' is that north-south distances should remain true to scale regardless of the latitude, while the longitude distances are exponentially exaggerated as you get further north or south of the equator.

(But I should have clarified that I was only speaking in terms of latitudes; north-south distances).
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Hugin » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:20 pm

Now that I have established the latitudes, I have begun to look into the currents. I think the first thing is just to compare Earth's currents and how they work in relation to land masses and latitudes.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby BardicFire » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:17 pm

It seems the Polar Discussion seemed to resolve itself faster than a new thread was needed, Very good. So any chance anyone can Edit a Thorf Map to what, as far as we can tell, have accurate Latitude and Longitude?
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Hugin » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:01 am

Hugin wrote:
Gecko wrote:
Hugin wrote:Note: By comparing this map with what we actually have mapped out in hex maps, this map is not accurate at the higher latitudes. For example, there is more land mapped out on hex-maps between Thyatis City and Alpha than this non-hex map shows.


At this scale you have to keep in mind the limitations of the type of projection being used on the map.

My understanding of this 'projection' is that north-south distances should remain true to scale regardless of the latitude, while the longitude distances are exponentially exaggerated as you get further north or south of the equator.

Having reread this, I still don't think I made my original comment very clear. So just to clarify what I was speaking about;

The issue is that there is more land mapped out on the hex maps, in the north-south direction, than there is on the the non-hex map. The result is that the non-hex map portrays the 60° latitude (for instance) farther up the map. Another way to say it is that it is as if the hex maps have 'inserted' more land, pushing northern lands even farther north. So, instead of Alpha being at around 53° or 54° latitude as it appears on the non-hex map, it lies at around 60°; it has been 'pushed' north by the 'extra' land mapped on the hex maps.

Now, what Gecko mentions is important. The east-west directions are distorted (expanded) to greater lengths the farther away it is from the equator. This is one of the limitations of that projection. However, north-south directions remain equal regardless of distance from the equator.

As for the Polar Discussion, I'm still very undecided about how I think the ocean currents would behave at the polar openings. The only thing that I'm somewhat set on is that they'd speed up considerably, like a figure skater spinning with their arms extended, and then going faster as they pull their arms in to their bodies.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Birchbeer » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:33 pm

When looking at this we need to be aware of what is on the hollow world for each respective area as it will have a direct affect on how cold/warm the weather is. The polar distortion is pretty bad the further north to the poles is... the only way I think this can be easily resolved would be to say the great ocean between Skothar and Brun is shrunk to prevent distortion of the land masses.

Someone (Multiczar?) had it mapped to a sphere and project to show what things would look like. Would that help?
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Birchbeer » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:45 pm

I just found a test map made trying to illustrate the curvature issues with the flat maps...
Image

and here is an example of what would happened if the flat maps were fixed:
Image

Here's it hexedized:
Image

There's a few paths we can go (and I swear Thorf said the same in a thread but I'm too lazy to dig it up)
Leave out Trianglar patches of areas we aren't using but preserve existing terrain as best as possible (easiest)

Fix and alter the terrain to work correctly (harder and it means most maps outside the equatorial regions will need alterations to properly "fit")

OR... something in the middle. I'm not sure what could be done though.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Hugin » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:19 pm

Birchbeer wrote:When looking at this we need to be aware of what is on the hollow world for each respective area as it will have a direct affect on how cold/warm the weather is.

High latitude weather and currents may be more affected by the conditions that are experienced within the polar opening, I'd think. Examining that will be very interesting.

The polar distortion is pretty bad the further north to the poles is... the only way I think this can be easily resolved would be to say the great ocean between Skothar and Brun is shrunk to prevent distortion of the land masses.

This might be possible. The circumference around the arctic circle is equal to 166 columns of 72-mile hexes; I'm speaking of east-west counting of hexes now.
(Yes, might have even more geeky data that I haven't shared yet. :oops: My wife thinks it's so cute. Thankfully she loves my geekiness. :ugeek: )
Anyway, there is the equivalent of 50.5 columns (of 72-mile hexes) mapped of northern Brun land on your map (probably double that for the entire width of Brun); the map's width itself being the equivalent of 64 columns. That's only 64 of the total 166 that circle the globe at that latitude. Reducing mainly Western ocean hexes can help us with the mapping issue, at least to some degree.

The other slight help we get is that the land doesn't meet at a point at 90° latitude. The "tightest" it gets is deep inside the polar opening, on the Hollow World side of the darklands, where the circumference is 2637.5 miles (42 columns). To put that into perspective, it is as if the map never goes past 84° (that is, 6° away from the pole). The complication to that is that there was a whole lot of land that lead up to that place. Visually, instead of the usual world map like we see in the Hollow World Set or Rules Cyclopedia, take an hour glass figure, cut it in the middle where it is thinnest, glue the top and bottom together so the middle is now the thickest part; that would be the shape of Mystara's World Map.

Someone (Multiczar?) had it mapped to a sphere and project to show what things would look like. Would that help?

I've done that with Kal's map on the Google Earth globe. It was very helpful at the time. I should see about doing that again with the proper latitudes. The downside is that I can't do anything about the 'squishing' of hexes away from the equator.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Birchbeer » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:07 pm

Hugin wrote:Visually, instead of the usual world map like we see in the Hollow World Set or Rules Cyclopedia, take an hour glass figure, cut it in the middle where it is thinnest, glue the top and bottom together so the middle is now the thickest part; that would be the shape of Mystara's World Map.


I had this weird idea of a combined world map... (I'm at work and Gimp doesn't work well here so I'm texting it, ignore the dots as it's filler the x's define the shape of the planet.)

..XXX... (Polar, Outer World)
.XXXXX..
XXXXXXX (Tropics, Outer World)
XXXXXXX
.XXXXX..
..XXX... (Polar, Outer World)
..XXX... (Polar, Hollow World)
.XXXXX.
XXXXXXX (Polar Tropics)
.XXXXX.
..XXX... (Polar, Hollow World

This would change our world map, but I also think it would then allow for properly calculating things. The hollow world does need to be shrunk properly though or it wouldn't "fit" within the outer world.

Also, we could use a map where things are broken into triangles with this as well, either way it illustrates how the world "should" work and how currents and airflow would work as well (cause I also have an idea air could flow between the two worlds as well).
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Hugin » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:06 pm

That's the general image, birchbeer. Combining the outer world and hollow world is certainly doable, although the hollow world would appear upside down (or vis- versa). It wouldn't work as a hex map because of the longitude 'squish-factor'; i.e. although the map varies in width it always represents 360° from side to side.

I am currently (no pun intended) leaning toward the idea that there is a band of strong air and water currents within the polar opening (the figure skater analogy I mentioned earlier). This would help create a 'system' barrier between the outer and inner surfaces so that air and water don't pass directly from one to the other; they'd get caught up in this rotating band first.

So while air and water can go from outer to inner surfaces and back again, it would enter these "Stormy Territories" first and whirl around for a while. Think of it as another 'jet stream' but for both air and water, as well as larger and less concentrated (slower).
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby BardicFire » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:46 am

OMG I have power again. okay guys. as Halloween season is coming to a close, I wanna see progress! WORK LIKE THE LITTLE ELVES YOU ARE!!!! oh wait, thats one of my other jobs. :P
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Hugin » Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:57 am

I do have some currents marked out on a map but there are some more details that I'm researching, mainly for determining what might be going on around Alphatia with all those narrow straits and passages. Once I have something worth discussing I'll scan it. (How did you know I was a level 7 elf! :P )
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby Birchbeer » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:53 am

I did upload my rough (very rough) first draft map above, but want to defer to Hugin and see (as he's doing more research) :)
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps: Ocean Currents

Postby BardicFire » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:34 pm

AH so sorry for not coming back in so love. I got super busy at the end of the show season and forgot about this. Hows R&D going guys?
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