Geo-Informative Maps Development Main Thread and Discussion

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Geo-Informative Maps Development Main Thread and Discussion

Postby BardicFire » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:22 pm

This is the Main Thread and Discussion Page for the Development of Geo-Informative Maps for Thorf's Atlas of Mystara (The Request/Offer one can be deleted).
Current Map ideas are based on the Geo-Informative Maps in DK's Essential World Atlas (Reprinted with Revisions 1998) any Map Concepts not currently represented can be offered here.

Map Progress:
* Political - Data Available
* Physical - Data Available
* Time Zones - Data Available
* Geology & Structure
* World Climate (also covers Air Currents) - Data Available
* Ocean Currents - In Development
* Life Zones
* Population
* Languages
* Religion
* Global Economy
* Global Conflict

Development Team:
* All -
* * BardicFire - Coordinator
* * Birchbeer
* * Gecko
* Ocean Currents -
* BardicFire - Acting Coordinator
* * Birchbeer - Contributor
* * Gecko - Passive Contributor.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps Development Main Thread and Discuss

Postby Gecko » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:41 pm

* Time Zones - Data Available


All times would be solar time - time "Zone's" are a modern standardization.

* Geology & Structure


There's a good Geology map and overview covering the known world and Nithian-Dwarven geologic terminology available on the vaults.

* World Climate (also covers Air Currents) - Data Available


I presume you mean like Koppen classification system - or more generic?

* Life Zones


You mean biomes?

* Population


Your probably talking about population density, but for mystara we've got multiple inteligent species so we could also use racial maps - either one's showing what race is dominate where and/or showing where certaint races (or even GAZ10 subraces) are and are not found.

* Languages


There's no single agreed upon system for this in Mystara (there's been lots of discussions over the years - many of which I was in. Some want lots of languages, some want few.) even limiting it to language "families" would be too much disputes.

EDIT: We (myself and Havard mostly) had started a linguistic project to compile a "fewer languages" and a "more languages" lists for the two versions, and also a language family overview, but we never got very far (yet another thing that I hope to one day have the time to return to)

* Religion


Unless your using one of the alternate "church's" models, this would need one map for each immortal, which seems impracticle. Even using my "faith categories" it seems too much to try to map (then maybe for just the known world, but not globaly).

* Global Economy


the economies are not advanced enough to have like GDP measurements in this era. For just what areas produce what we've got trade maps for the known world (see darokin and Minrothad gaz's, and a expansion one of the vaults for the serpent peninsula, and some one has done a map of trade routes in Brun that I've seen before)

EDIT: On second thought, maybe, just for the known world something showing the breakdown between civilized-borderland-wilderness hex concepts from the dominion rules could be done. And didn't the trail maps have a table showing typical income for known world countries?

* Global Conflict


There's really only been one "global" conflict - WotI, and not everyone agrees that it WAS global (It took on different aspects in different regions of mystara beyond the known world in my mystara, but others limited it to the known world.
A "Conflicts" map focusing on just the known world could be doable and nice see however.

sorry for the typo's, trying to hurry and get on to other things.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps Development Main Thread and Discuss

Postby BardicFire » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:27 pm

@ Gecko:

1. Yes, Solar Times Officially, but I plan on developing an Unofficial map that has Time "Zones" based on Country Borders, set in 1000 AC of course.

2. Thanks for the info, will need to add that to the resources.

3. Koppen will be the most accurate and detailed probably, DK uses what seems to be a Highly Simplified Koppen System.

4. Sort of, it's also partially inspired by Koppen Climate Classification, but focuses on the way the biomes work, so yes. heres a list of the types used on the DK Map are:
* Polar
* Tundra
* Mountain
* Needleleaf Forest
* Broadleaf Forest
* Temperate Grassland
* Temperate Rainforest (a la West Coast US)
* Mediterranean
* Dry Woodland
* Tropical Grassland
* Tropical Rainforest
* Hot Desert
* Cold Desert
* Wetland
any suggestions of "extra" types will be taken into consideration, especially if their is life zones that exist on Mystara and not on the Real World.

5. I was thinking having a Main Map that covered ALL Sapient Species. The Map is Political, like so: http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world ... ensity.jpg but will also cover Average Life Expectancy. From there I thought there should be Racial Maps that was more freeform than political.

6. Personally I plan on this part to be a continuously developing part of the Project. I'd like to develop multiple maps based on different interpretations, and even possibly get input from original canon writers (Languages are absolutely things I would ask about if I got the chance)

7. Why not have one map for only the most major Immortal Cults, and "Pagan" religions? This one is going to be played with.

8. Yes the Trail Maps did, and we can do an Estimated Wealth based on Resource and Trade for the whole World. Again Politically based, as opposed to regional or something similar.

9. Global Conflict does not mean World War, it means any current conflicts around the world. For Example my World Atlas is Circa 1998, so what it lists it has countries in red that have been in International Conflict (conflict with another nation) since 1975, little black explosion symbols representing Civil Unrest since 1975, red diamonds over areas that are disputed territories, tightly dotted red line for Disputed Borders, and looser dashed line for Undefined Border. We will be using SIMILAR but not necessarily exact forms.

All Maps should be large enough that the intricacies of the Known World can be seen on the Global Scale (because it's too damn small of an area IMHO)
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps Development Main Thread and Discuss

Postby Gecko » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:31 am

BardicFire wrote:
Re: Time Zones
1. Yes, Solar Times Officially, but I plan on developing an Unofficial map that has Time "Zones" based on Country Borders, set in 1000 AC of course.


oh? for what purpose, if I may ask?

Re: Geology
2. Thanks for the info, will need to add that to the resources.


It's by Isabelle Sarikhan from 2006. Her discription of the the History of the science of Geology in Mystara, & a Mystaran geologic timescale are here, the map itself is here, and it's descriptive legend is here, explaining the stratigraphic surface units. I'm not convinced on her names for the timescale, and I'd be tempted to change the specific dates she used to match it up closer to the RW Geologic timescale, but the work is otherwise very enthralling - I keep finding new tidbits in it everytime I re-read it.

Re: Climate
3. Koppen will be the most accurate and detailed probably, DK uses what seems to be a Highly Simplified Koppen System.


yeah a Koppen map would be far more detail than we would need, even a simplified Koppen might be a lot.

this map (I think it's by LoZompatore, or at least it's based of one of LoZomp's base maps), could be a good starting point.

Re: Life Zones/Biomes
4. Sort of, it's also partially inspired by Koppen Climate Classification, but focuses on the way the biomes work, so yes. heres a list of the types used on the DK Map are:

(snip)

yeah, I'd call those Biomes or bioregions (there's all kinds of different classification schemes for those). Really 3 & 4 could probably be merged.

Re: Population/Races
5. I was thinking having a Main Map that covered ALL Sapient Species. The Map is Political, like so: http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world ... ensity.jpg


still not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean the dominant race for a country? so for example all Human dominated countries (Darokin, Ethengar, Thyatis, Alphatia) would be red, elven realms (Alfheim, Vyalia, Shiye-Lawr) would be green, places like Wendar could be Green & Red stripes, humanoid lands (Broken Lands, Limn) would be dark grey, and so on?

but will also cover Average Life Expectancy.


umm... In a RW atlas that is there to show differences in a countries health (and indirectly development) levels- environmental polution, access to and quality of health care, nutrition, diet, infant mortality, sanitation, education level, etc. In mystara life span is determined by race, and within the same race there will likely to be negligible variation from place to place. (ie An Elf in Alfheim should have the same age span as an elf in Wendar or Shiye-Lawr, but all those elves would be far more than a human from anywhere)

From there I thought there should be Racial Maps that was more freeform than political.


Depending on the level of cartographic (& computer) ability, there could be several ways to portray this.

Re: Languages
6. Personally I plan on this part to be a continuously developing part of the Project. I'd like to develop multiple maps based on different interpretations, and even possibly get input from original canon writers


ok, I think these could be fascinating to see. Even jsut one based on broad categories (ie Neathar/Tanagoro/Oltec/etc.) or one based on language families

Re: Religion
7. Why not have one map for only the most major Immortal Cults, and "Pagan" religions? This one is going to be played with.


What definition of "Pagan" are you using? Of the various definitions of that word with which I am familiar, I can't picture how any of them could be used to map mystaran religions. I'm completely lost what you are talking about with this one I'm afraid.

Re: Economy
8. Yes the Trail Maps did, and we can do an Estimated Wealth based on Resource and Trade for the whole World. Again Politically based, as opposed to regional or something similar.


I'm not convinced of the usefulness of such a map.

Re: Conflict
9. Global Conflict does not mean World War, it means any current conflicts around the world. For Example my World Atlas is Circa 1998, so what it lists it has countries in red that have been in International Conflict (conflict with another nation) since 1975, little black explosion symbols representing Civil Unrest since 1975, red diamonds over areas that are disputed territories, tightly dotted red line for Disputed Borders, and looser dashed line for Undefined Border. We will be using SIMILAR but not necessarily exact forms.


But Mystara is notably (largely) lacking in most of these in the century or so leading up to WotI, unless you count the internal squabbling to become supreme ruler/khan of, and traditional internal hostilies and raiding within both the Ethengar Khanates and the Broken Lands Hordes (And I've never been able to figure out the timing of the events leading up to Thar's rise as Supreme ruler). In the RW in 1998 they had enough material to make a worthwhile map going back just 23 years - the 20th century was soo full of conflicts. In mystara in the whole 50 or so years prior to WotI you've got:
International Conflict- Thar's invasion of Glantri 992-994. I suppose the Heldannic Knights conquest of the Freeholds would count. Depending on your exact cut-off date you could include the Alphatian Spike Assault. (959-962). Some smaller raids- ie Hayavik, Black Eagle Baron, etc.
Even if you go back a whole century, about the only thing that adds would the conquest of Traladara in 900.
If you add some fannon and non-cannonical stuff way back then you might be able to add the Bogs War, and some of the last of the internal Darokinian wars, both in the 910s.
Am I missing any? I think the Savage Coast/Red Steel would add some.
Civil Unrest- almost non-existant in Mystara, unless you count conflicts with humanoids in the wilderness but then EVERY country would be marked as having such. The Marlinev Rebellion is the only thing coming to mind. If you add in fannon I suppose you could add the Almarrand Rebellion in 936-938. There's not even any examples of Irredentalism in mystara unless you use the five shire alternate gaz or play up Thyatian ambitions to reclaim Ierendi.
Disputed Territories- none come to mind. In fact, the Orclands could be a case of the opossite "Unwanted territories" - maps assign it to darokin, but even they don't really want it nor control it.
Disputed Borders- none come to mind. Border changes could be interesting, but asides from Ylaruam I can't think of any.
Undefined Borders- outside of the Known world there's probably a lot, as forces control however much they can patrol.

maybe you could do something at a smaller scale - ie a map of tradition relations (ie friendly vs. hostile, neutrality pacts, etc.).

All Maps should be large enough that the intricacies of the Known World can be seen on the Global Scale (because it's too damn small of an area IMHO)


Some of them are appropriate at the global scale (ie Climate, etc.), but for a lot of these you might be better off focusing on just the Known World (or the Known World + some surroundings) as otherwise you'll run into several issues:
* A) lack of info- both in terms of hard facts and sometimes areas are completely undeveloped
* B) deferent interpritations, ie competing and/or contradicting info
* C) questions over whether to stick just to cannon (which makes A) even worse) and issues of how much if any, and which, works of fannon to include (which makes B) even worse)
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps Development Main Thread and Discuss

Postby BardicFire » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:16 am

wish I could figure out how to do that great Quote stuff you do. but anyways.

Time Zones: To understand different times in different areas, for spells, events, or just large area travel. the unofficial time zones is for my game, which is a slightly different take on Mystara (Gunpowder exists, Less emphasis on Immortals and more on Pagan religions, etc. etc.) and in it I have that Darokin, Minrothad, Thyatis, and a few other nations have joined into a Trade League with ISO like standardisations and stuff.

Geology: No Comments besides WOOT, gonna look over them when I got time.

Climate: I disagree, I want to be as detailed as possible, make as comprehensive as possible of an Atlas, to quote Hammond from Jurassic Park "we spared no expense" but we'll definitely need to do this at different levels.

Life Zones: I disagree about the combination, Mountain Biomes and Needleleaf Biomes are actually very different, think Russian Tiaga and woodless areas of the Rockies.

Population: no I mean account for all Sapient Species that live in those borders. all of them. if thats too much to ask then maybe just major races. Sapience "Sapience is often defined as wisdom, or the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgment, a mental faculty which is a component of intelligence or alternatively may be considered an additional faculty, apart from intelligence, with its own properties." as opposed to Sentiency, which it's believed that a vast number of "mundane" creatures have as well.

Life Span: probably focus on Humans, with minor notes showing other major races. remember, hyper-comprehensive geo-informative atlases, I want to provide DM's (and myself XD) as much data as possible.

Languages: as an aspiring Linguist (Hobby wise, not career) I personally am going to look at Language families that I think more sense in regards to apparent cultures, migration, and Geographics. It really isn't that hard to figure out, it's just that some people try so desperately to stick to the contradictive information in ALL of the available Sources.

Religion: Northern Reaches still practices Asatru (Odinism), Thyatians seem to have Pseudo-Greaco-Romanic Religion as well as Immortal Worship. basically I mean all the Non-Immortal Worshipping Religions. Paganism academically is used to mean any religion outside of the Dominant ones, thus as Immortal Worship is the most common, Paganism would be EVERYTHING ELSE :P.

Economy: if your not convinced you don't have to work on it of course ^_^, I personally want one for various reasons, one being I have an experimental game concept I want to run sometime that is entire Economic Roleplay, A bunch of Merchants and Traders mapping and twisting the worlds economy to get rich quick.

Global Conflict: Might not be a very doable map, but I'd still like to see what it could "inspire". I'd love to see a map showing the movements of raiding parties around the entire world, showing me how exactly Goblinoids (Humanoids as they are called in Mystara) raid on a global scale. I think it'd be interesting. what about the wars between Thyatis and Alphatia, I'm thinking about covering a period of time larger than 75 years, and possibly different times. and like I said, maybe when we start preliminary work on this project, we'll find it'll be useless and just scrap this one.

Global Scale: I want to do both. Comprehension, DATA OVERLOAD. *cue maniacal laughter*
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps Development Main Thread and Discuss

Postby Gecko » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:16 am

BardicFire wrote:wish I could figure out how to do that great Quote stuff you do. but anyways.


typing (ignore the "Code: Select All" bit):
Code: Select all
[quote]quoted text[/quote]
[quote="J. Doe"]quoted text listing the author (J. Doe in this case)[/quote]
[quote][quote]nested text 1[/quote]nested text 2 (up to 5 I think)[/quote]
gives:
quoted text

J. Doe wrote:quoted text listing the author (J. Doe in this case)

nested text 1
nested text 2 (up to 5 I think)


moving on...

Climate: I disagree, I want to be as detailed as possible, make as comprehensive as possible of an Atlas, to quote Hammond from Jurassic Park "we spared no expense" but we'll definitely need to do this at different levels.


Then you'll be working on it forever... I'd suggest starting simpler - then updating, detailing, and improving afterwards IF you still have the time, energy, and interest in doing so at that point.

Life Zones: I disagree about the combination, Mountain Biomes and Needleleaf Biomes are actually very different, think Russian Tiaga and woodless areas of the Rockies.


ah, but those ARE distinct classifications in a full Köppen-Geiger system (more or less). Mountain Biomes are "H" and any forest in a Df will be a coniferous forest* (Or is there somesort of rare C-sub-sub-type coniferous forest I'm forgetting about that can occur under Köppen?) - Getting more detailed than that and you start getting into issues of differences in classification between american vs european symbology (or even differences in outright classification). If your going for something as complex as a full Köppen-Geiger system you might as well pick something that can do double duty, and a Köppen based classification scheme is not the only one out there. (though I'd still recomend two seperate but far easier to map/determine systems).

*= of course you can get more specific than a "needleleaf biome" i.e. Taiga would be a sub-type of a needleleaf or coniferous forest

Population: no I mean account for all Sapient Species that live in those borders. all of them. if thats too much to ask then maybe just major races.


ok, then map it how?
*Density? that can be misleading in the type of map (a Choropleth) that your talking about (look at Canada or China for example's@) - you really need a "Dot Map" or Proportional symbol map (and since we have various races here, somesort of multivariate map might be needed - and none of the amateaur cartographers in the community are up for something on that scale I don't think, no offence to anyone - I'm amazed at how much cartographic skill this community IS capable of - bravo to you all!)
*just based on the total number within a countries borders? Would that be useful enough to bother?
What about populations that are not under a central governments control, include them or not?

@= a Mystaran example of where a Choropleth map of population density would be misleading could be Darokin if you include the Orclands.

on a side note, I presume you've looked into the Italian Demographic numbers? Sounds like what kind of data your looking for. It's not strict cannon, but I love what they've come up with.

Life Span: probably focus on Humans, with minor notes showing other major races. remember, hyper-comprehensive geo-informative atlases, I want to provide DM's (and myself XD) as much data as possible.


What data are you going to map with? even getting rid of the apples and oranges issue with differing races, I'm not aware of any source anywhere saying anything about lifespans of this human group vs. that human group.

Languages: as an aspiring Linguist (Hobby wise, not career) I personally am going to look at Language families that I think more sense in regards to apparent cultures, migration, and Geographics. It really isn't that hard to figure out, it's just that some people try so desperately to stick to the contradictive information in ALL of the available Sources.


ah-ha, once you start picking and choosing what source to use and which one not to use, your no longer on a common "Cannon" base. There's nothing wrong with that of course, but you can't then do a collaborative project based on that unless all participants agree to the same selective list. And there's always going to be some who have access to the source(s) you dismissed but do not have access to the ones you used. So that's why all projects (my own included) on these lines have either gone private and personal (or at least small group), or failed.

Religion: Northern Reaches still practices Asatru (Odinism), Thyatians seem to have Pseudo-Greaco-Romanic Religion as well as Immortal Worship. basically I mean all the Non-Immortal Worshipping Religions. Paganism academically is used to mean any religion outside of the Dominant ones, thus as Immortal Worship is the most common, Paganism would be EVERYTHING ELSE :P.


So, by that definition the only "Pagans" would be Glantrians, Fey, and most Trolls (oh, and isolated OB cultists which wouldn't show up on a map anyhow)? I guess maybe some Druids also, depending on how you view druidism.

Global Conflict: I'd love to see a map showing the movements of raiding parties around the entire world, showing me how exactly Goblinoids (Humanoids as they are called in Mystara) raid on a global scale.


how Humanoids* raid on a global scale? answer: they raid locally. Sorry, I'm not trying to be funny but unless you go back to the time of the Overlord (which isn't fully accepted as cannonical) or all the way back to the various great hordes of the BC years (ie Lorak, Wogar, Ubdala, Akkila-Khan, etc.), there are no cannonical widely migrating hordes like in some other game worlds. Thought there are some alternative timelines that have Thar moving a single small horde back and forth between the Broken Lands and the Wendarian ranges as part of his rise to power. During and after WotI there's some small scale movement (Broken Lands hordes moving into the great crater, Thar's attack on Rockhome, etc.)

*Goblinoids would be the largest sub-category of humanoids by the definitions of most (but not all) game systems.

I think it'd be interesting. what about the wars between Thyatis and Alphatia, I'm thinking about covering a period of time larger than 75 years, and possibly different times. and like I said, maybe when we start preliminary work on this project, we'll find it'll be useless and just scrap this one.


The only Thyatian-Alphatian hot conflict in Cannon in any reasonable span of time leading up to WotI is the aforementioned Spike Assault. Even the most accepted fannon has only one minor border conflict (the Bogs War) in 904-912 and nothing at all in the 800s (though lots in prior centuries). I compiled a list at one time which I think I posted to the forum. Searching I see I actually had done so twice, but never got any feedback here in 2010 and here in 2009.

Again, a map showing traditional hostilities or alliances might however be useful - especially to newbies.

PS If your going to be doing a lot of Choropleth maps of an area using political borders - it would be easiest to either get the boundaries in some sort of ESRI arcview (or similar) shapefile OR get a blank base map showing just the borders to use with "fill"-type commands in graphics programs. Something in the vien of the later could even be useful in plain old MSPaint if done right.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps Development Main Thread and Discuss

Postby BardicFire » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:47 am

Finally have power again, and so can finally respond to this. but not tonight.
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Re: Geo-Informative Maps Development Main Thread and Discuss

Postby BardicFire » Fri May 16, 2014 10:47 pm

Might pick this back up. I feel bad leaving it so suddenly, but I went from some dorky college kid to a full blown adult responsibilities kid with insurance, rent, and 2 jobs since I left this. so hopefully people can understand why I was away for 3 years.

I apologise if I sounded annoying or overly headstrong when I responded to you guys. being 19 and barely functional human can do that.

Basically gecko you made some great points.

I think it'd be smarter to try and start with early history mapping and work our way up.

a) start with Geo-informative, how the world came to be this way, Ocean Currents, Land Shift, Wind Patterns, etc.

b) follow that with evolution patterns and migrations (theres a couple maps that show migrations of people, plus I'm sure theres origin info about where humans come from, elves, etc.)

c) see where we go from there.
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