Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

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Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Carillion » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:59 pm

I posted the map found here in the general Mystara board area a number of weeks ago and am now moving it to the correct place here. I have also changed the hosting site to Google Docs, as people were having issues viewing it on Photobucket previously. However, please be warned that it cannot be viewed via Internet Explorer, due to some incompatability issues between that browser and Google Docs itself. A Thank you to Spellweaver for spotting this problem and warning me about it.

A few notes about the map itself:

1. The map from the module X4 (Master of the Desert Nomads) and the one from the Champions of Mystara boxed set do not tie up with regards to the size of the Sind desert. I have gone with the map from X4, as it was the first map to detail this region, and is also the map that most people will be using when adventuring in this location (ie,when playing through the module X4).

2. I have gone with the river tributaries from the map in X4, unless contradicted by more than one map of Canon status (for example, if contradicted by both the Champions of Mystara map and that of X5).

3. According to X4 and X5, the great pass is a dangerous route, which is rarely travelled. I have therefore not drawn a trade route going through the Great Pass, which is shown in the Champions of Mystara map of the region. At the time of my map (AC1000), I have assumed that no regular trade route goes this way.

4. Fanon maps do not agree with each other with regards to the the Northern area of my map. Some show the Borean Valley to be in this region, while others show the Ozungan Plateau to be in this area. I have gone with Christian Constantin’s (CC) map, as he wrote some extensive notes on this area which can be found on Pandius. I would have the bottom of the Borean Valley finish just North of the Ozungan Plateau, and then have it run all the way up to the West of Frosthaven. I am currently working on another map which details the area to the North of this one.

5. Some towns were not given names in CC’s map. I have given names to these towns, based on the Cultures that were used as resource for this region. These are as follows:

Dvinzina: (Albania)
Grouzhnia: (Georgia - the former Soviet republic in the Caucus),
Azardjian: (Azerbaijan)
Chengouch: (Northern Caucus's - Chechnya, Ossetia, Dagestan, etc.)
Kyurdukstan: (Kurdistan)
Sardjikjian: (Tajikistan)

Any comments welcome!
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Havard » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:28 pm

I like it! :)

Also, thanks for posting the list of the nations with their R/W counterparts. I always forget which is based on which.

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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Carillion » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:31 am

Hello Havard,

I also added the Kantari Plains as well! Are you happy with the location?
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Havard » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:18 am

Carillion wrote:Hello Havard,

I also added the Kantari Plains as well! Are you happy with the location?


Ah, so you have!

Looks good to me. Thanks! :)

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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:59 pm

First of all, nice map, Carillion! :)

Carillion wrote:1. The map from the module X4 (Master of the Desert Nomads) and the one from the Champions of Mystara boxed set do not tie up with regards to the size of the Sind desert. I have gone with the map from X4, as it was the first map to detail this region, and is also the map that most people will be using when adventuring in this location (ie,when playing through the module X4).


Wow, I don't think I had ever noticed that before. But now that I look, I see that you are absolutely right. The maps line up very clearly in regards to the Black Mountains, the Sea of Dread coast, the Atruaghin Plateau and the Adri Varma Plateau. But in the later maps the Sind Desert loses an entire row of 24 mile hexes along its northeastern border. The Khurish Massif is correspondingly bigger, and the grasslands bordering the desert have all moved one hex southwest. The Salt Marsh has also moved in the same direction, as has the Asanda River and its mouth.

Personally I think it would be better to go with the later map, though. The reason is that it provides a more detailed look at the area in general, particularly Sind and the Sind Desert. It's also the map upon which my 8 mile per hex treatment of Sind is based. Besides, nothing is really lost in the change between the two maps - a row of otherwise not terribly interesting desert hexes has been changed into rather more interesting territory for Sind.

In any case, very interesting find. :D

2. I have gone with the river tributaries from the map in X4, unless contradicted by more than one map of Canon status (for example, if contradicted by both the Champions of Mystara map and that of X5).


These seemed to line up very well indeed in my comparison. The general courses of almost all the rivers are in the same places, with just a few minor tributaries missing.
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Carillion » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:33 pm

Hello Thorf,

Thank you for your comments.

I agree that it's interesting why the two main canon maps for this area don't tie up exactly. I wonder whether it was intentional or not? If it was intentional, then it begs the question of why the changes were made. Maybe Bruce Heard might know the answer, as he was involved in the Champions of Mystara boxed set initially.

I was aware that the two maps didn't tie up exactly when I started my map, but I was caught out by the shift to the southwest that you mention. I only discovered this when I was trying to add certain geographical features from the Champions of Mystara map. I noticed that I could never get my map to tie up exactly, no matter where I put those features. Eventually I saw the reason why, and had to do a slight fudge to get the map how I wanted it.

I agree that moving forwards, it might be better to base all of the maps drawn for this area solely on the Champions of Mystara map. The main reason here is because you can then avoid the headache of trying to reconcile two differing maps. Although I am happy with my final map, it ended up being more difficult to complete than it should have been.

Ultimately however, the differences only really matter if you are trying to map the area, so while they are a headache for cartographers, they are pretty much an irrelevance for everyone else!
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Laokong » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:31 pm

Hello,
I want to thank Carillion warmly for his efforts at modernizing this old content. I am more than flattered to see that stuff I have worked on almost 15 years ago is still alive and considered interesting by fans of Mystara. At the time, I had developped my own system (using Photoshop and a long process of cutting/pasting hexes over a layered grid) and I'm truly impressed by the maps created following Thorf's Illustrator-based system. I hope to be able to learn how to make my own. I kind of remember struggling with the Sind Desert discrepancy when working on this map too.
I have hit the Mystara/OD&D books again and I am planning to finish my old Hule project. So you can expect more details on this region as well once I am done reviewing my old manuscript notes (all my original files were lost to a faulty external hard drive) and rereading canon material.
Thanks again,
Christian
PS: anyone knows if my maps of Hule (8mpx, was on my old website but not on the Vault) and the larger map of of Great Hule and the Midlands (24mpx, http://www.pandius.com/h1000ac.jpg) have been reproduced?
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Sturm » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:25 pm

Glad you're back!, I'm a huge fan of your work, Kal used it to make a huge world map (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7150) and I've used it and yours to make a Brun map meant to take into account all canon and fanon sources, still a work in progress here: http://digidownload.libero.it/Halag/images/brun.png
we didn't use Thorf's method however and I don't think he ever did a replica of your maps..
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Cthulhudrew » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:09 pm

Welcome back to the fold! (They all return eventually, muahahahaaa!!! :twisted: )

Like Sturm (and doubtless many others), I've always enjoyed the immense amount of work you did on Hule and the western nations, both the cartography as well as the gazetteerish writeups. I've long wished the story had continued, but RL gets in the way of the best laid plans of mice and men.

I think there are still an episode or two of yours extant that for one reason or other never got saved on the Vaults or the MML archives, though I'd have to double check.

In any event, welcome back, and just as an FYI, we've got a new Mystara fanzine that might be an excellent showcase for your work. The second issue should be coming soon(tm), but future installments would surely be open to submissions if you want.
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Carillion » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:33 pm

Welcome to the Piazza Laokong!

I want to thank Carillion warmly for his efforts at modernizing this old content.


You're welcome. And a thank you to you for writing all that material in the first place!

I don't recall seeing any replica maps when I was looking into it at the time. In fact, I remember being surprised at how few maps there were of this area, given how close it is to the Known World. Olddawg did a large map of central Brun a number of years ago, but his take was different to ours on a number of areas. A guy named Robin also did a massive and rather impressive 8 mile hex map of Eastern Brun, which again, was different to our maps in a number of places. That 8 mile hex map was definitely posted somewhere here on the Piazza, so you should be able to find it.

I'm also currently working on a large map which details the area north of the one I posted on this thread originally. This map covers off some more of your original 24 hex map (and other areas, such as the southern part of the Borean Valley). Hopefully, I will be able to post that in the first half of next year.

I also have to echo Cthulhudrew's sentiments about the Threshold magazine. It is an excellent place to get your Mystara stuff published, as quite a few people read it, and I'm sure they will appreciate anything you write for them.

Regards,

Matt (Carillion)
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Gecko » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:39 pm

welcome back!

Laokong wrote:PS: anyone knows if my maps of Hule (8mpx, was on my old website but not on the Vault) and the larger map of of Great Hule and the Midlands (24mpx, http://www.pandius.com/h1000ac.jpg) have been reproduced?


I don't know about re-produced, but if you mean your missing the files then I've got saved copies I could email you (If so PM me with what email address to send them to)
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Morfie » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:37 am

Thibault's site is still active, so copies of your maps are here.
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby agathokles » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:39 pm

Welcome back, Christian! I look forward to see more Hulean goodness (well, more likely badness)!

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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Havard » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:57 pm

Welcome back Laokong! :)

Your material has been a very valuable resource on the greater Hule region and I have been using it for years.

Great seeing people from the old days return to the community :)

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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby stanles » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:15 pm

Laokong wrote:Hello,
I want to thank Carillion warmly for his efforts at modernizing this old content. I am more than flattered to see that stuff I have worked on almost 15 years ago is still alive and considered interesting by fans of Mystara. At the time, I had developped my own system (using Photoshop and a long process of cutting/pasting hexes over a layered grid) and I'm truly impressed by the maps created following Thorf's Illustrator-based system. I hope to be able to learn how to make my own. I kind of remember struggling with the Sind Desert discrepancy when working on this map too.
I have hit the Mystara/OD&D books again and I am planning to finish my old Hule project. So you can expect more details on this region as well once I am done reviewing my old manuscript notes (all my original files were lost to a faulty external hard drive) and rereading canon material.
Thanks again,
Christian
PS: anyone knows if my maps of Hule (8mpx, was on my old website but not on the Vault) and the larger map of of Great Hule and the Midlands (24mpx, http://www.pandius.com/h1000ac.jpg) have been reproduced?


hey Christian

I'm more than happy to put those maps of yours which aren't yet on the Vaults onto the Vaults. I assume that the ones on Thibault's site are good for this purpose?

cheers
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Laokong » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:44 pm

Wow! Such a heart-warming welcome... and I hadn't seen the whole series of replies until today! (I kinda was expecting topics to be flagged when replied-to, perhaps I just missed it)

Once again, I'd like to thank you all for the good words on my work and for keeping it, and Mystara, alive over the years! I unfortunately had to leave my Hule project unfinished in 1999 when I got confirmation I received a scholarship to study in Beijing, there was no room for Mystara in my luggage... A few stays in China and a PhD later, I am now ready to finish the project. To find such a vibrant Mystara community and to read your support just adds to my resolve. I have hit the books again and read a few fan publications--so much good stuff out there--I got loads of inspiration, but still need to organize all that material in parallel with DMing a campaign (I'm quite rusty...).

Thanks to Stanles and all those who helped track down lost maps (some I had even forgotten I ever uploaded). Between the Vault, what people had saved on their computers, and the printouts I kept, I believe I now have gathered all my original writings/maps. It still requires a huge editing cleanup + setting up a new website to host it, but you can expect the story to continue...

Sturm wrote:Glad you're back!, I'm a huge fan of your work, Kal used it to make a huge world map (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7150) and I've used it and yours to make a Brun map meant to take into account all canon and fanon sources, still a work in progress here: http://digidownload.libero.it/Halag/images/brun.png
we didn't use Thorf's method however and I don't think he ever did a replica of your maps..

I had seen your map of Brun independently of your post. Breath-taking! Quite a project, and beautifully done. To see that all my old stuff found its way into your map was quite a surprise. It made me feel bad I had to leave it as a work in progress...

Cthulhudrew wrote:In any event, welcome back, and just as an FYI, we've got a new Mystara fanzine that might be an excellent showcase for your work. The second issue should be coming soon(tm), but future installments would surely be open to submissions if you want.

Thanks a lot Cthulhudrew for your invitation. While perusing fan work I stumbled on Threshold and was impressed by the quality of the publication. I would be honored to contribute in the future!

Glad to be back! :D
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Sturm » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:24 am

Laokong wrote: I had seen your map of Brun independently of your post. Breath-taking! Quite a project, and beautifully done. To see that all my old stuff found its way into your map was quite a surprise. It made me feel bad I had to leave it as a work in progress...


Well, thanks, far from being finished as you can see from the "shadows" of the cities of Kal's map still present right in the area of Hule.. Kal indeed had completely different geographical features for Brun, but I used your maps because, for me and many others, they have been for years The Source about Hule and surrounding lands... I even had a PC and a campaign based on them, so thanks again! :)
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Laokong » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Sturm wrote:I even had a PC and a campaign based on them, so thanks again! :)


Nice! Well, if you have (or any other on the forum for that matter) developed elements for your campaign that I could integrate in my future work on the area, please feel free to share them, I'll try to fit them in.
I kind of remember seeing a "Great Flood" in the Grouzhina or Azardjian area on an ulterior map and was intrigued about it (can't find that map now though). Also, I would appreciate if you could point me in the direction of sources concerning the surrounding areas developed by other fans (North Shore of the Yalu Sea, Galannor and those surprising "Alphatian Kingdoms" to the west for instance).
Cheers!

PS to the Admins: This existing thread has more or less been highjacked by this discussion about Hule and my old work, perhaps it would be best to move some posts into a new thread, maybe under the subject "Great Hule" or "The Midlands". Thanks a lot.
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Sturm » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:20 pm

Here it is about Galannor and nearby places: http://pandius.com/midland.html
You may also wanna see this: http://pandius.com/centbrun.html
The Grouzhina flood is detailed here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10271&p=123458&hilit=grouzhina#p123458

About My campaign, not sure if there is something useful to you, the PC was named Hakan and was a former cleric of Bozdogan who betrayed the church to become a wandering bard... Eventually he joined the other PC's and they killed the Master (as in X5), but not completely, so Hule became a battleground between Bozdogan's followers, with the Master reborn, the Lawful Brotherhood of the rebellious subject kingdoms, humanoids and another faction headed by Xanthus, an alphatian exiled detailed in the almanacs.. I didn't reach the point to decide the ultimate fate of Hule... i.e. who could win...

I also wrote this recently about Central Brun viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10324&p=124347&hilit=dorfin#p124347 that follows an idea about the Empire of Dorfin of the Master Map was headed by a gnome, still on the path to immortality, and secretly controlled by gnomes, much more powerful in the area than other races believe... (i.e. they would be the true masters of the Lawful Brotherhood). Mishler too, IIRC, had a sort of vaguely similar idea about powerful gnomes in Central Brun, but I cannot find where he wrote about it...
The city, not tagged yet in my map, would be the one just north west of the Yalu Sea, near to Sandsurfer Gnolls
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Laokong » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:30 pm

Thanks for the links Sturm.
Going through old printouts of mine, I found a 8MpX map of the Caerdwiccan Peninsula I made in 1999. I can't recall if I ever shared it (most probably it was lost with my old hard drive). Anyone has it by any chance?
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Carillion » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:00 pm

Hello Laokong,

I can't speak for the others, but unfortunately I haven't seen that map on my travels.

A quick question, if I may. Did you ever name all of the towns in the dominion called "Douzbakjian" that you detailed in your map of the Midlands? One of the cities is called "Tachgoun", whilst the others weren't named on that map. If you did, I would be grateful if you could post the names here, as I'm doing a map of that region at the moment, and would like to add the names of those towns onto it.

Thanks for your help!
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Laokong » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:36 pm

Hello Carillion,
I don't believe I ever put them on a map. I think 8 MpX maps of the Midlands and Kavkaz were on my To-Do List but never came into being (then again, dedicated fans have been sharing stuff I had no recollection I created 15 years ago, so it's not impossible I did map those areas in the end...).

You can, however, find the names for most of the cities in the Sardjikjian Market Intelligence (http://www.pandius.com/tradetab.html).

IIRC, Douzbak cities should be located as follow:
Noumalik = Westernmost city, on the coast
Zartakand = South of Tachgoun, on the River Gulnach
Arystub = Southeast of Tachgoun, on the River Kazikh
Sardzha-Bazar = Extreme east of Douzbakjian, where the River Ozun reaches the Yalu Sea.

I'm pretty sure cities on the Market Intelligence file are presented in the following order: Capital cities first, then in their order of appearance on the map from North-West to South-East. The first 3 letters of their country is found between parentheses... there doesn't seem to be any order to the presentation of countries...

Hope this helps,
Best!
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Carillion » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:37 am

Hello Laokong

Excellent - that's just what I'm after!

It looks like at some point, I'll have to revisit the map I linked to at the top of this thread and change the names of some of the towns so it ties up with the Sardjikjian Market Intelligence file. I must have missed that file when I was researching for the original map!

There is another interesting thread on the Piazza about this region of Brun, which can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5786

One point to note is the positioning of the Yalu Sea (also known as the Cradle). One area where the map I'm working on at the moment might differ from yours is this large lake, as I'm currently inclined to shift it to the North West by about 400-500 miles in line with the comments on that thread of the poster called "Morfie" (though keep all of the towns and cities in the same geographical position as on your map). This would mean that it would then tie up with all of the Canon material for this area, which is illustrated by LoZompatore's compilation map on the same thread.

I'd be interested to hear your views about some of the comments on that thread, as you have worked extensively on material for this region previously.

Regards,

Matt (Carillion)
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Laokong » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:02 am

Hi Matt,
Glad I could help. Thankfully, most of my initial rambling was preserved by the thorough immortal clerks of the Vault. Again, I am in the process of reviewing early material, so please keep a critical distance.

In general, geographical names should not be the subject of editing changes though, since they were adopted by the community and were grounded in the Mystara ethos/canon to begin with. I might be inclined to change some Borean tribes name to better reflect the M-Celtic connection with Eusdria/Robrenn (my initial take on the area was more influenced by the Oltec-Neathar mix linked to Hule and Ethengar. It gave out a Central Asian/Finno-Ugric flavor to the the human nomads I introduced), I kinda overlooked the Neathar-Celtic/Franks (Charlemagne Era) connection with the Savage Coast as presented in the Princess Ark series.

As for the map projection issue, I totally agree my original maps may be off by a few (hundred!) miles. At the time (late nineties...), most of us Mystara mappers were breaking new grounds. I remember toying with the problem of projection and adding a few hexes to compensate (just guestimates). Now, one thing that always kept me from adding too much distance (to my ruler & pen Master-Map-based calculations) is the fact that Mystara is a "Doughnut-shaped" world, not a perfect sphere. As such, Earth-based map projections would have to be adapted to compensate for the North/South Poles inward curvatures. Again, I did not push that kind of thought too far when I created my maps, so, if canon has evolved following fan exchanges about map projections, please update my maps. I'll be happy to adapt my work to yours before I offer more details in some future 8MpX maps :)

Best,
Christian
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Re: Outer World: Northern Black Mountains, 24 miles per hex

Postby Carillion » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:09 pm

Hello Christian

Thanks for the feedback! That will certainly help me to decide on what mapping direction to take on this area.

I might be inclined to change some Borean tribes name to better reflect the M-Celtic connection with Eusdria/Robrenn (my initial take on the area was more influenced by the Oltec-Neathar mix linked to Hule and Ethengar. It gave out a Central Asian/Finno-Ugric flavor to the the human nomads I introduced), I kinda overlooked the Neathar-Celtic/Franks (Charlemagne Era) connection with the Savage Coast as presented in the Princess Ark series.


I'll look forward to whatever you come up with on this one. One advantage you have is that as the Midlands area is so vast, you could even detail additional tribes to cover off the Celtic/Frank connection, and still have plenty of room to spare!

Thanks also for posting about the Mongolian script on the Hulean Calendar thread. I never even knew that the Mongolians had developed their own script, which I see has a very distinct and interesting style. I think that using it would definitely add to the foreign and mysterious flavour of Hule. The Piazza certainly can be very educational at times!

Regards,

Matt
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Surrey, England

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