[Mapping Issues] Lining Up Mystara

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Re: Mapping Issues: Lining Up the Maps

Post by Sturm » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:10 pm

Thanks, now I'm able to download it, big and Beautiful!

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up the Maps

Post by Thorf » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:57 am

Major Update

Today I posted the first two parts of a series of blog posts detailing my solutions to these issues.

The first, Lining Up Mystara I, sums up all of the outstanding issues, and will form the hub for all future posts. As I solve the extant issues, I will update this post, linking to the solutions. These links will include blog posts, Facebook posts, and Piazza threads/posts, as necessary.

The second is Lining Up Mystara II, kicking off by tackling the Great Waste. I outline the issues, then go through the sources with image-heavy commentary until the issues are all solved.

Feedback would be greatly appreciated! I can't really repost the article here, because the images are key. But feel free to discuss things here in this thread!

Two bits of feedback in particular that I'm looking for at this point: did I miss any issues in my first post? And do you agree with my conclusions in the second?

I'm already working on the next post... :cool:

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up the Maps

Post by Thorf » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:32 pm

Part three of the series is up, and I'm already mostly finished part four — which will require more feedback than any of the issues I've posted yet. Look out for it tomorrow!

Lining Up Mystara III

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up the Maps

Post by Carillion » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:29 pm

Hello Thorf,

It's good to see you back doing Mystara maps!

Unfortunately, I haven't got much free time at the moment, so I won't be able to comment as much as I would like, but I should have some free time early in January to respond more fully. In the meantime, I'll at least comment now on the Sind Desert and Gulf of Hule area (part two of your project).

I like your explanation of why the Sind desert "hex shift" had occurred, as I had just assumed it was an error on the Great Waste map found in the Champions of Mystara boxed set. It never occurred to me that they were trying to tie up other already published maps, and that the error was actually made on the earlier map found in Dragon magazine #169.

I think you've done an excellent job of tying up the various conflicting map sources, and I'm now considering doing a variant of my previous map which you mention in your article, which ties up more closely to what you have done. I think you've laid out a good reason to do so, namely that if we keep the map very close to that shown in X4, there will always be an issue in tying it up with the nearby coast.

However, there is another issue in this region which has recently come to light. Robin noticed that the map shown in the Champions of Mystara boxed set shows all of the hills on the Eastern side of the Black Mountains to be barren, when in fact X4 details that some of the hills near the Black Mountains on the Eastern side are covered in trees and other vegetation. We believe that this occurred because there was no hex symbol for "forested hills" when the map for X4 was produced - there was only a hex for "forest" and another for "hills". The cartographer chose hills when doing X4, and this was replicated on the Champions of Mystara map without realising that there was by that time a more suitable hex symbol (ie "forested hills"). I have added some forested hills on to my map (as well as some glacier hexes which we also know exist due to the narrative in X4) in order to compensate for this, but this project is still in progress and I would welcome your thoughts on this issue.

Finally, I note that you have asked in "part three" of your article about a conversation had recently on the Piazza concerning the Great Escarpment. That conversation can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14611

I would be interested to read your views on this topic, as in my mind, there are two or three different approaches that could be justified here. However, one thing which has already been established is that the Red Steel boxed set's decision to split up the Great Escarpment isn't very popular!

Anyway, thank you for your hard work on this project so far, and we can at least say now that the most troublesome Mystara mapping issue, namely the Sind desert "hex shift", has finally been put to bed!

Regards,

Carillion

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Re: Mapping Issues: Lining Up the Maps

Post by Zendrolion » Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:13 am

Thorf wrote:Next, I have finally taken the time to put all my maps together, and look into some major issues such as the Heldann-Norwold border. My basic conclusion is that the issue of how Norwold attaches to the Known World comes down to an arbitrary decision/judgement call. I'm strongly leaning towards adopting Zendrolion's solution, as it is pretty close to what I was coming up with, and is already well established in the community. (I'm sure this will please many of you, since I've been dragging my feet on this issue for more than ten years now!)

Unfortunately the problems with the 72 mile per hex maps (specifically Dawn of the Emperors) rears its ugly head here, making me wonder why it is so far out of sync. Zendrolion, or anyone who worked on the Italian MMB's solution, do any of you have any ideas about this? I think I will simply end up squashing that bit of the map to make it fit, enabling the remaining areas to be used as source material.
Hi Thorf, nice to see you're back on this part of your project - and glad to finally find some time to answer you on this issue after a couple of awful months at work and in family life. Quite late, you may say, but late is better than never, I hope. ;)

We (LoZompatore and me, mostly) worked to solve the Heldann-Norwold border issue back in 2005-2006... Unfortunately most of the reasoning behind the choices we made then was lost when the Italian MMB was closed and all its posts deleted forever. Anyway, the result of this old solution to that issue is the one featured in my obsolete map of Norwold. The shape of the Heldann-Norwold border and that of the Bay of Kammin as shown in this map was used in many later fan works, most of all in OldDawg's GAZF line.

(Un)fortunately, I recently came up with a revision of this map in my recent Norwold article for Threshold #7, "A Traveller's Guide to Norwold", after a thorough analysis of all the maps concerning this area and their relative alignment. The result, shown in the Norwold map used for that article, was mostly a differently-shaped Bay of Kammin and Heldann-Norwold border.

The reasoning behind the revision is accurately described in the gray box on pages 6-8 of Threshold #7. I suppose it'd be useless to copy and paste it here, but if you want some clarifications or to share your comments about it, I would more than glad to answer. Consider that I did the revision all by myself, so I could have skipped some details, overlooked important things, or simply ignored some issues - which means that I'm eager to read your points on the Heldann-Norwold problem and to apply any change to my map in order to make it more consistent.

Regarding your statement that the way in which Norwold lines up with Heldann is an arbitrary choice, I cannot but agree. I think there are two-three general ways to attach the two maps together (making Denagoth fit inside them), but the ultimate choice between them is matter of taste.

As a last note, I used DotE 72mph map only for the part which was out of smaller-scaled maps (WotI 40mph, CM1/M2/X11 24mph), that is the lands of Borea west of the Icereach Range. I also tried to fit as much as possible the wonderful details found in Robin's map of north-eastern Brun.
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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up the Maps

Post by Thorf » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:10 pm

Great to hear from you, Carillion! I was hoping you would drop by. I have been looking through your maps, and I have to say they are really good. :D Wonderful stuff! Very professional-looking, not to mention well-researched.
Carillion wrote:I like your explanation of why the Sind desert "hex shift" had occurred, as I had just assumed it was an error on the Great Waste map found in the Champions of Mystara boxed set. It never occurred to me that they were trying to tie up other already published maps, and that the error was actually made on the earlier map found in Dragon magazine #169.

I think you've done an excellent job of tying up the various conflicting map sources, and I'm now considering doing a variant of my previous map which you mention in your article, which ties up more closely to what you have done. I think you've laid out a good reason to do so, namely that if we keep the map very close to that shown in X4, there will always be an issue in tying it up with the nearby coast.
The links between these older maps were always very tenuous, especially when they didn't have a clear overlap. For me the important thing really is to invalidate as few existing maps as possible, which is why I prefer to go with the later sources — where the cartographers came to their own conclusions about these tenuous links, and in so doing created an official solution.

Your solution for X4 is fine if you give priority to X4's map, of course. It's a shame that there was ever an error in the first place. My principle of taking the later source is no better than the idea of taking the original source as the best — as long as we are consistent. :)
However, there is another issue in this region which has recently come to light. Robin noticed that the map shown in the Champions of Mystara boxed set shows all of the hills on the Eastern side of the Black Mountains to be barren, when in fact X4 details that some of the hills near the Black Mountains on the Eastern side are covered in trees and other vegetation. We believe that this occurred because there was no hex symbol for "forested hills" when the map for X4 was produced - there was only a hex for "forest" and another for "hills". The cartographer chose hills when doing X4, and this was replicated on the Champions of Mystara map without realising that there was by that time a more suitable hex symbol (ie "forested hills"). I have added some forested hills on to my map (as well as some glacier hexes which we also know exist due to the narrative in X4) in order to compensate for this, but this project is still in progress and I would welcome your thoughts on this issue.
This is a very common issue on early maps, because as you say, forested hills didn't exist as a symbol back then. I think it was around GAZ3 that they were introduced, so everything earlier can and should be revised as necessary.

There's another issue here, which is that there should probably be more forested hills in some areas than are currently shown. GAZ1's revised map from the Kingdom of Karameikos boxed set is a good example — that map did convert some hills to forested, but not nearly enough considering that the text states that most of Karameikos is forested.

So I agree and I'm all for adding these where the text suggests them, and where they seem logical.
Finally, I note that you have asked in "part three" of your article about a conversation had recently on the Piazza concerning the Great Escarpment. That conversation can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14611

I would be interested to read your views on this topic, as in my mind, there are two or three different approaches that could be justified here. However, one thing which has already been established is that the Red Steel boxed set's decision to split up the Great Escarpment isn't very popular!
I guess I released my Savage Coast Trail Map a bit too soon. I was already aware of the Dungeon 6 & 7 map, and that it conflicts with Red Steel, but I hadn't thought to check X5. Both ends of the map will need some revision, I think.

My opinion of Red Steel in general is pretty low. The map, that is. The areas outside of Bruce's Voyage of the Princess Ark maps are painted in with massive, clumsy brush strokes, ignoring most other sources. It's particularly bad in the east, where they turn the Great Waste into something totally different. (I seem to remember that the otherwise wonderful book The Black Vessel had its characters visit an area here populated by Hutaakans, which irritated me at the time.) I can't say I'm surprised that they ignored X5 and Dungeon 6 & 7 when they didn't even do enough research to see what the Great Waste is supposed to look like.

So I will definitely be going back and revisiting the Great Escarpment and the Great Northway Lands for a future revision to my trail map.

I checked out your map, and I think you've done a great job. Your solution looks good.

I think I would be tempted just to throw out Red Steel altogether in favour of X5, and shift the extra terrain from Red Steel up onto the Great Escarpment. We could even have a layered plateau, with the Red Steel part being a second step up on top of the Great Escarpment.
Anyway, thank you for your hard work on this project so far, and we can at least say now that the most troublesome Mystara mapping issue, namely the Sind desert "hex shift", has finally been put to bed!
The most troublesome Mystara mapping issue? :lol: ;)

My friend, I'm afraid there are a lot more, some much worse than this one. Norwold comes to mind, but the general state of the 72 mile per hex maps, and fitting the world map to the hex maps are also near the top of my list.

In any case, I've given myself until 15th February to get through them. Your work on all these maps, and of course your feedback here, is invaluable to my project. Many thanks!

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Re: Mapping Issues: Lining Up the Maps

Post by Thorf » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:46 pm

Zendrolion wrote:Hi Thorf, nice to see you're back on this part of your project - and glad to finally find some time to answer you on this issue after a couple of awful months at work and in family life. Quite late, you may say, but late is better than never, I hope. ;)
Sorry to hear you've been having a rough time. I hope 2016 turns out much brighter for you!

You have perfect timing, though. Not late at all. :) I've said that I want to get through these issues by mid February, but that's just my own deadline to provide me with some motivation to keep at it until things get sorted, as well as to make the necessary arbitrary decisions that have been holding me back. I am still very much open to feedback and discussion both before and after that deadline — though hopefully before! ;)
We (LoZompatore and me, mostly) worked to solve the Heldann-Norwold border issue back in 2005-2006... Unfortunately most of the reasoning behind the choices we made then was lost when the Italian MMB was closed and all its posts deleted forever. Anyway, the result of this old solution to that issue is the one featured in my obsolete map of Norwold. The shape of the Heldann-Norwold border and that of the Bay of Kammin as shown in this map was used in many later fan works, most of all in OldDawg's GAZF line.
This is invaluable info, because my solution was very close to your old work.

But I see that your new work is not all that different — just a hex or two out, with a smaller Bay of Kammin, right? So we're still on the same page.
(Un)fortunately, I recently came up with a revision of this map in my recent Norwold article for Threshold #7, "A Traveller's Guide to Norwold", after a thorough analysis of all the maps concerning this area and their relative alignment. The result, shown in the Norwold map used for that article, was mostly a differently-shaped Bay of Kammin and Heldann-Norwold border.

The reasoning behind the revision is accurately described in the gray box on pages 6-8 of Threshold #7. I suppose it'd be useless to copy and paste it here, but if you want some clarifications or to share your comments about it, I would more than glad to answer. Consider that I did the revision all by myself, so I could have skipped some details, overlooked important things, or simply ignored some issues - which means that I'm eager to read your points on the Heldann-Norwold problem and to apply any change to my map in order to make it more consistent.
It's not such a big change. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction for your analysis and notes — this is great stuff! I'm going to go over them in the next couple of days, and probably the next article (or one of the next) will be about Norwold. A quick glance shows that our thinking is very much in line, though — the first few steps were absolutely identical.
Regarding your statement that the way in which Norwold lines up with Heldann is an arbitrary choice, I cannot but agree. I think there are two-three general ways to attach the two maps together (making Denagoth fit inside them), but the ultimate choice between them is matter of taste.
This is why I'm very happy I can talk to you about these things, because if we can make the same choice, it would be great to have all our maps compatible. As I've said elsewhere, if the sources line up to leave an arbitrary choice, I will tend towards the same one as other fan cartographers have gone with, to keep things from going out of sync for no particular reason other than to be different. That helps no one.
As a last note, I used DotE 72mph map only for the part which was out of smaller-scaled maps (WotI 40mph, CM1/M2/X11 24mph), that is the lands of Borea west of the Icereach Range. I also tried to fit as much as possible the wonderful details found in Robin's map of north-eastern Brun.
Good to know. The 72 mile per hex maps are really pretty bad, not to mention way too general to really be of much help anyway.

I'm very much open to including especially terrain details from fan sources at this point. I'm thinking I'll hold back on adding in fan-created kingdoms and such for now, and start off with a blank terrain map for those extra areas — much like you have done with Norwold.

More on all of this later! Have a great New Year!

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up the Maps

Post by Thorf » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:52 pm

The latest article is up, this time looking at the position of Bellissaria and Esterhold in relation to all the 24 mile per hex maps we fixed the positions of in the last article.

Lining Up Mystara IV

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up the Maps

Post by religon » Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:41 pm

Outstanding work. We appreciate the effort.

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up the Maps

Post by Morfie » Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:38 am

I can't seem to find where the discussion of Heldann is now; but regarding the Naga river flow, AC1010's grid map of Heldann (AC1010's Wendar, AC1011's Heldann, and AC1013's Heldann) quite specifically has the river going underground into the Mengul mountains. Which I believe is what you decided on, luckily!

These maps also have the mountains as being outside of Heldann's borders, south of the Naga river.

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up the Maps

Post by Thorf » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:23 pm

Thanks, religon! :D
Morfie wrote:I can't seem to find where the discussion of Heldann is now; but regarding the Naga river flow, AC1010's grid map of Heldann (AC1010's Wendar, AC1011's Heldann, and AC1013's Heldann) quite specifically has the river going underground into the Mengul mountains. Which I believe is what you decided on, luckily!
Yes, the later maps all show the river flowing through a tunnel. And the consensus was very much that the tunnel is the most interesting as well as the most realistic way to go. :)
These maps also have the mountains as being outside of Heldann's borders, south of the Naga river.
Yep... So did the original X11 map. But I dislike the resulting 8 mile per hex map. It just looks somehow wrong to me. I much prefer the Wrath of the Immortals version, where the mountains fall inside Heldann's border. It does seem much more likely that the mountain tops rather than the feet of the mountains are the marker of the border.

I will likely make this change for Wendar too. It's not a matter of Wendar or Heldann claiming more or less territory, but rather of what marks the border between them and Denagoth.

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up the Maps

Post by Thorf » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:24 pm

I forgot to post this yesterday. I posted another article, continuing the discussion of Bellissaria and going into the 72 mile per hex maps.

Lining Up Mystara V

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up the Maps

Post by Thorf » Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:34 am

Part VI is up! Today's topic: the Savage Baronies poster map!

Lining Up Mystara VI

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up the Maps

Post by Thorf » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:48 pm

I've been very lax with updating this thread. Sorry!

Since I last posted, there have been four new articles, including the latest tonight. These articles have been very exciting to write, dealing as the do with some of the most major issues facing Mystaran cartography.

Lining Up Mystara VII: The Norwold Confusion

Lining Up Mystara VIII: Progress Update

Lining Up Mystara IX: Modelling the World of Mystara

Lining Up Mystara X: Revising the 3D Model

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up Mystara

Post by Jd1137 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:19 pm

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=4 ... lder%2cjpg is link to all my work: 24 mile,72 mile, and the copying of the master set onto a 1/5 hex-a-graph at a precise location to enlarge it so it lined up right. the 24 mile map set was done on the theory the previous 72 mile map coast line & the outer edge of the shaded line on the master set map u see in red on mine were the 50/100 ft & 200 ft undersea ridge lines on the 24 mile map. With that in thought i drew all the ridges then fit in as much of the canon 24mile hex maps as possible, then fixed any errors as u will see by adding coastline or by changing some of the ridge lines to fit them in.

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up Mystara

Post by Thorf » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:44 am

Very interesting work, Jd1137. It's a very different way of looking at the problem from what I have been doing. You're starting at the smallest scale map and working inwards, while I start with the largest scale maps and work outwards to the world map. I'd be interested to see 8 mile hex maps built according to your model. I suspect you'd have quite a lot of work to do to match the coastlines, and reorient and adapt all the official maps to fit the new model.

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up Mystara

Post by religon » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:55 pm

For those not following Thorf's blog, he has been hard at work with some fascinating new considerations. It is too much for me to digest in real time, but there is a LOT to dig your teeth into.

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up Mystara

Post by Thorf » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:24 pm


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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up Mystara

Post by Sturm » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:28 am

Hi, I think you have already take a look at my solutions previously in the thread.
I think you cannot align hex maps with the Master set map because the latter is square, and you will end up with an enormous Farend ocean.
You cannot align them either with the HW boxed set map as it is, because it is too stretched, and therefore has an ocean too small and the continents in completely different positions from the hex maps.
I think the only viable option is something like what I did, even if probably you would do it with much better calculations, id est:
- Using Evergrun, otherwise you have to enlarge Davania too much.
- Not necessarily respects the dimensions given in the HW boxed set which IMO simply cannot fit with hex maps. Here (http://pandius.com/motrwrld.html) the equator is roughly at VotPA location, but I enlarged Davania in the north-south direction and even on the Aryptian coast rather than respect the dimensions given in the HW map, as Geoff did, and I also used Evergrun. This way I could have 1hex=72miles=1degreee, so simplifying distances and calculations.
- Here http://pandius.com/Hollow_World_60mph.png I found the HW fit much better if bigger, so I considered the Iciria map a 60 miles per hex map rather than a 40 miles per hex.

But if you still do not want to use Evergrun and try to fit the hex maps with the Master set map, I believe the only solution would be to consider the northern and southern areas of the Master set map as projection exaggerations, and therefore make them smaller in the hex maps, i.e. that still means creating a compromise between the shape of the Master set map and the Shape and dimensions of the HW boxed set map, which do not fit at all.
I believe in any case you still need to leave some open sea below Davania however, or you will still end up with an oversized southern part.

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up Mystara

Post by Jd1137 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:57 pm

Well just this math, the 2 dimensional map of the master set tends fit closer with hollow world 40 mile hex maps. Using full size 50(1/50) scale the equator of master set map is 20230 miles. Now divide that by 3.14 to get the diameter of mystara, which would be 6442.675 miles. Now subtract 2400 miles for two whole dimension for the widths of the crusts. That would put u at 4042.675 miles for the diameter of inside of the hollow world,now times 3.14 to get the circumference of the whole hollow world. The continent of iceria represents little less then 1/3 of the hollow world which works really close with 1/3 of the circumference u would get if u factor in the few hexes the hex map doesn't show for the rest of icerian continent. So to show the math u have 4042.675 miles times 3.14 =12694 miles circumference, now divide by 3. U get 4231 miles, then divide by 40 to get the number hexes. That gets u 105 hexes, the map shows only 93. The hex map doesn't show the full 120 degrees so adding those extra 12 hexes onto that map would fix that problem.

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up Mystara

Post by Hugin » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:28 am

Jd1137 wrote:That gets u 105 hexes, the map shows only 93. The hex map doesn't show the full 120 degrees so adding those extra 12 hexes onto that map would fix that problem.
There's a slight hiccup to counting columns of hexes across the map (such as along the equator), though, if that is the direction you are in fact talking about.

The 'widest' part of a hex is 1.1547 times it's height. So a 40 mile hex has a width of 40 x 1.1547 = 46.19.
The 'narrowest' part of a hex (i.e. one of the six sides) is 0.5774 times it's height. 40 x 0.5774 = 23.09.

Since counting sideways across the hexes causes you to go through the top or bottom of a hex, and then right through the middle of a hex a it's widest point, we have to find out what the average is for a column. What that means is that counting hexes (or columns of hexes) across the equator of the map averages 1.7321 times the hex height divided by 2; or, 1.7321 x 40 / 2 = 34.642 miles per column, not 40 miles.

Again, If I'm understanding what you are doing, 93 hex columns along the equator equals 93 x 34.642 = 3221.7 miles

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up Mystara

Post by Jd1137 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:16 pm

Yes u are right, that would bumb it up to 122.6 hexes per 120 degrees of the hollow world. But still proves my point that if u use the 40 mile hex map of the hollow world u have to use the master set map at 1/50 scale with 1"=1700 ft on that scale.

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up Mystara

Post by Thorf » Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:39 am

That's fine if you're going to map the world from scratch using the Master Set map as a base, as you seem to be doing. You will of course end up with a nice consistent set of maps at the end of a very long project.

But that's not what we're doing here in this thread, because the vast majority of Mystara maps are hex maps at much larger scales, and most people think that these trump the world maps.

If you calculate the dimensions of the world based solely on other factors, how will you fit the hex maps into your world model without changing their scales? It's not going to be possible. Add to that the fact that the world map does not line up well with the hex maps (for which see the extensive articles on my site).

All of this means that I want to calculate the dimensions of the world based on the hex maps, not the world maps. The world maps, and even the 72 mile per hex small scale maps, can only go so far in helping us here.

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Sturm
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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up Mystara

Post by Sturm » Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:35 am

Well my goal exactly was to give precedence to the canon hex maps, first the 8 and 24 mph maps, then the 72 mph maps, and that's how I created my world map. When a canon 72mph map was at odds with a canon 24 mph map, I disregarded the first one and gave precedence to the latter. However several areas are available only in 72 mph maps and fanon maps, so I strive for some acceptable compromise.
I cannot recall now all the single passages, but I more or less encountered the same problems you mentioned. My solution was simply to make Mystara larger than the dimension given in the HW boxed set.
But if I understood correctly, you are trying to fit the dimensions we can obtain from the hex map in the canon circumference given in the HW boxed set and the Almanacs. IMO this is simply impossible, unless you distort seriously at least some very big regions of the canon hex maps.

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Re: [Mapping Issues] Lining Up Mystara

Post by Thorf » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:06 am

Sturm, my reply yesterday was for Jd1137. I think we're getting wires crossed a bit.

To reply to your posts:
Sturm wrote:I think you cannot align hex maps with the Master set map because the latter is square, and you will end up with an enormous Farend ocean.
It's not quite square, though very close. But I disagree that you can't align hex maps with the Master Set world map. Of course I chose to do the opposite, and align the Master Set map with the hex maps, but it's eminently doable. What's more, if you're not too worried about getting a loose fit, you can align them without doing all the cutting and pasting I have done in my articles.

The Far End Ocean is a foregone conclusion, as far as I'm concerned. I suspect that if you try to wrap your map around a sphere you will not have enough map, leaving a hole in the east-west dimension. Furthermore, the pseudo-projection will mean that north is not always up, which would cause problems. Specifically, the lands nearer the sides of the map ought to be warped more.
You cannot align them either with the HW boxed set map as it is, because it is too stretched, and therefore has an ocean too small and the continents in completely different positions from the hex maps.
That's not exactly true. More accurately, it's stretched, but clearly they copied the exact same map onto that Robinson-like template. Witness what happens when you change the projection of the Hollow World Set Outer World map, squash it east-west, and overlay the coastlines (Master Set outlines in red):

Image

Considering that they did this by hand, it's astoundingly accurate. Make no mistake, the Hollow World Set's Outer World map is quite precise. It just needed to be reprojected and squashed east-west. ;)
I think the only viable option is something like what I did, even if probably you would do it with much better calculations, id est:
- Using Evergrun, otherwise you have to enlarge Davania too much.
I'm not at all opposed to adding Evergrun, but I don't see the logic here. Including or excluding Evergrun surely has no impact on Davania...?
- Not necessarily respects the dimensions given in the HW boxed set which IMO simply cannot fit with hex maps.
For the Outer World, I totally agree with you here. All of the Outer World figures seem to have been plucked from thin air, and none of them matches the hex maps. My project has made this abundantly clear — just look at the mess trying to work out the latitudes.

The size of the hex maps is of course fixed, but without latitudes, it's impossible to calculate the size of the world.
Here (http://pandius.com/motrwrld.html) the equator is roughly at VotPA location, but I enlarged Davania in the north-south direction and even on the Aryptian coast rather than respect the dimensions given in the HW map, as Geoff did, and I also used Evergrun. This way I could have 1hex=72miles=1degreee, so simplifying distances and calculations.
I was also planning on using the Princess Ark equator, but I haven't been able to get it to work without redesigning the polar openings. Even then, the planet ended up being around 30,000 miles in circumference.

I haven't examined your map close enough to see yet, but I don't see how you can manage 72 miles per degree with the Princess Ark equator.

...checking your map...

Oh, okay. You didn't — you used the PWA2 equator, similar to what I've done in my Placement 6. But you've relocated Oceania and Cestia to match their positions in relation to the Princess Ark equator. What a great idea!

Personally I always wanted to go with the Princess Ark equator, but it just doesn't work. Perhaps that's why they changed it for PWA2 — although I rather suspect it was a mistake more than that. ;)

In any case, this is very interesting. Compare your map and my Placement 6, and you should see they have a lot in common.

The biggest difference is Davania. Did you rotate Davania clockwise? Is your Davania based on Geoff's map?

We are bound to differ here, because I've always wanted to go with Master Set Davania, which is an entirely different beast. It's much bigger, basically.
- Here http://pandius.com/Hollow_World_60mph.png I found the HW fit much better if bigger, so I considered the Iciria map a 60 miles per hex map rather than a 40 miles per hex.
I know that this sort of change has been suggested by many people, but I couldn't be more against it. Why mess with the scale like this? Is it to make the world resemble the cross-section diagram more closely? But that would make all the larger scale hex maps 12 miles per hex instead of 8.

Besides, it's just not necessary. The Hollow World actually does fit the official figures quite nicely. We can make it work, and fit most of the compromises into the design of the polar openings, which no one seems to care about anyway.
But if you still do not want to use Evergrun and try to fit the hex maps with the Master set map, I believe the only solution would be to consider the northern and southern areas of the Master set map as projection exaggerations, and therefore make them smaller in the hex maps, i.e. that still means creating a compromise between the shape of the Master set map and the Shape and dimensions of the HW boxed set map, which do not fit at all.
I believe in any case you still need to leave some open sea below Davania however, or you will still end up with an oversized southern part.
Leaving Evergrun aside for now, I think you're on the right track. Both your map and mine have protrusions past 90º — which presumably means (far) inside the polar openings.

I'm leaning towards squishing the northern and southern extremes of the world, personally. I will cover this in my next article, but the simple fact of the matter is that the Master Set map was designed to be a full world: a spheroid or ellipsoid, without polar openings. So we need to take the cue of the Hollow World Set maps as evidence for what changes the designers intended in order to accommodate the Hollow World.

Moreover, the extreme sections of the world would likely have to have been redrawn anyway, to prevent them from pinching at the poles. I think this is still necessary.

I'm quite happy with the bottom part of Davania overflowing into the polar opening. This is how the official maps show it, anyway. On the contrary, there is no room for open sea here.
Sturm wrote:Well my goal exactly was to give precedence to the canon hex maps, first the 8 and 24 mph maps, then the 72 mph maps, and that's how I created my world map. When a canon 72mph map was at odds with a canon 24 mph map, I disregarded the first one and gave precedence to the latter. However several areas are available only in 72 mph maps and fanon maps, so I strive for some acceptable compromise.
This sounds very much like what I have done in my articles. I'm sure we didn't agree on all areas, but there's a lot of arbitrary parts to it, so that's not surprising at all. I'm sorry if I have sounded overly critical. I actually think your map is stunning! :)

By the way, as you have probably read, I am opposed to the use of hexes at this scale. That actually has a nice advantage for your map: I will not be producing a world map in hex format, so your map will not be getting competition of this variety. ;)
I cannot recall now all the single passages, but I more or less encountered the same problems you mentioned. My solution was simply to make Mystara larger than the dimension given in the HW boxed set.
But if I understood correctly, you are trying to fit the dimensions we can obtain from the hex map in the canon circumference given in the HW boxed set and the Almanacs. IMO this is simply impossible, unless you distort seriously at least some very big regions of the canon hex maps.
I think this message was getting wires crossed... Were you replying to me, or Jd1137?

In any case I think the answer is a definite yes for the Outer World — it's just not possible. But for the Hollow World, it's very possible, as long as you are willing to change the design of the polar openings, whether just the measurements or the whole design.

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