Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

[Thorf]

Maps

Replica of GAZ1 poster map, 8 miles per hex by Thorf, March 2009


Updated map of Karameikos, 8 miles per hex by Thorf, June 2008
and Variant updated map of Karameikos with mostly forested hills, 8 miles per hex by Thorf, June 2005 (Out of Date)


Note: PDF files are available of all my maps upon request.

Comments
Perhaps the most notable feature of the updated map is the forested hills, long described in the text but included for the first time in Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure. The text implies that all the hills are forested, hence the variant version with most of the hills changed to forested hills.

Sources: GAZ1 The Grand Duchy of Karameikos (1987), TM1 The Western Countries (1989), Rules Cyclopedia (1991), Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure (1994). Also B10 Night's Dark Terror (1986).

Notes on GAZ1

• Achelos Woods/Riverfork Woods - although the placing of the labels on the map may suggest otherwise, these are variant names for the same forest. Page 35 describes them as "variously called the Riverfork Woods and the Achelos Woods."
• Altitude – page 35 gives two altitude labels, which have been added to the map.
• Callarii Elves - according to "The Map" on page 6, "The Callarii elves live in the central forests east and west of Kelvin and in the forested foothills south of the gnomish community."
• Forested Hills – while the Gazetteer itself states on page 45 that most of Karameikos’ hills are “thickly covered with forest,” at the time GAZ1 was made the forested hills hex had not yet been created. Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure corrected this, showing some of the hills as indeed being forested. Given the description, this could be taken further, changing most or even all hill hexes to forested hills. The Atlas remains consistent with Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure, but see also the variant map and its notes for more on this.
• Forested Hills near Highforge - it seems that the hills south of Highforge are forested. See "The Map" on page 6: "The Callarii elves live in the central forests east and west of Kelvin and in the forested foothills south of the gnomish community."
• Kelvin – the detail map for this city shows that it is situated at the confluence of the Highreach and Hillfollow Rivers. However, GAZ1’s map shows Kelvin one hex north of this position. This atlas uses the position as described in the text.
• Koriszegy Keep – though marked on the map as a keep, the text clearly states that it is ruined on page 40. I have thus marked it as ruins.
• Shutturgal River – this old Traladaran name for the Hillfollow River is given on the map, and repeated on TM1. However, the text twice gives the name as Shutturga (pages 5 and 35). The detail map of Kelvin also has Shutturga. Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure repeats the text reference while eliminating the old name from the map. This issue could probably go either way, but this atlas uses the name as given in the text, Shutturga.
• Wufwolde River – this old Traladaran name for the Windrush River is given in the text of GAZ1 and repeated in Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure. However, GAZ1’s map has Waterolde, while TM1 has Waterholde. It seems likely that the river shares the name of the hills through which it flows, and therefore this atlas uses the name Wufwolde.

Notes on Variant updated map (GAZ1)

• Forested Hills - there is much evidence that almost all of the hills (and indeed most of the mountains) in Karameikos are heavily forested. "Land Patterns" on page 35: "These mountains tend to be thickly covered with forest vegetation, gradually thinning to bare rock toward the peaks. The average height of mountains in this range is about 4,000 feet, though many are much larger." It goes on to describe the extent of the forests in the foothills: "South of this mountain range, you have miles and miles of mountain foothills - also thickly covered with forest." Further support in "Terrain" on page 35: "Karameikos is one of the most thickly-wooded nations of the world. In the northern parts of the Grand Duchy, pine forests cover the mountain slopes and the hillsides." It continues, describing the "three great tracts of forest" in Karameikos. The description of the forests doesn't mention anything about hills, but doesn't rule out forested hills as parts of those forests either.
• Forest Types - as we might expect, higher altitude forests have a tendency to be evergreen, while lower lying forests at this latitude are deciduous, with a gradation of the two in between. "Terrain" on page 35: "Karameikos is one of the most thickly-wooded nations of the world. In the northern parts of the Grand Duchy, pine forests cover the mountain slopes and the hillsides. The further south you get, the more hardwoods - oak especially - you see; in the southernmost parts of the Dymrak Forest of eastern Karameikos, all you see are ancient oaks towering into the sky."

Notes on GAZ11

• Kelvin - the trade map (GAZ11 Players' Guide pages 16-17) and the Supply and Demand table (page 27) both use the original "Kelven" spelling.

Notes on Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure

• Forested Hills – two of the easternmost hexes of the Five Shires, have been changed to forested hills. This change seems in line with the Karameikos forested hills change, so this atlas has adopted it. However, one of the forested hill hexes shown in GAZ8 is incorrectly shown as normal hills here. This change has been ignored in the atlas. (See also GAZ1.)
• Traldar Bay – this bay in eastern Karameikos was labelled for the first time in this product.
• Vandevicsny – this previously unmarked village appears for the first time on the 8 mile per hex map.

To Do List

1. Expand updated maps - I'm working on changing the format of all my maps to make them rectangular by including neighbouring countries.
2. Resolve Threshold problem and incorporate B10 maps.
3. Create replica of this map from Rules Cyclopedia and write notes.
4. Create replica of TM1 and write notes on this map.
5. Create replica of this map from Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure and finish notes.

Thanks to: Jesper Andersen (Spellweaver), Katana One, Kheldren, Joe Mason, Sheldon Morris (Hugin),

[JoeNotCharles]

I know you probably went over this on the old board, but can you summarize the Threshold Problem?

[Cthulhudrew]

Thorf can clarify, but I think what he's referring to is the mapping problem that came up predominantly with the difference between the B10: Night's Dark Terror map of Karameikos and the Gaz1 map. In B10 (which came first, and is actually a very detailed map of the area), Threshold is located north and slightly west of the town of Rifllian. On the Gaz1 and later maps, Threshold is located north and east of Rifllian. There are also differences in the way the Windrush River and its tributaries are depicted as well.

IMO, the most amiable solution has been to shift the location of Threshold on the 8 mi/hex map one hex to the southwest, and chalk up the rest of the differences to one of scale.

Of course, Thorf could also be referring to the fact that the B10 map uses hexes that are lined up in a different direction from the other maps (with the points north/south rather than the flats north/south), or the different scales of the maps.

[shanatus]

Do you have access to the trail maps? I have scans of them if you want them. They are very detailed. Email me if you want me to email you copies: srwaterpolo @ msn.com

[Andaire]

On the variant map, some cities/towns/whatever like Luln and Koriszegy appear with the wrong background color (ie the original one), shouldn't they match the green of their now forested surroundings?

[JoeNotCharles]

On the variant map, some cities/towns/whatever like Luln and Koriszegy appear with the wrong background color (ie the original one), shouldn't they match the green of their now forested surroundings?

I figured that meant the forests around them had been cleared for several miles.

[Andaire]

Possible, but they do stand out in that color, among that sea of green. Not sure what the solution might be, the towns with a green background, in the south, are I guess those surrounded by prairie/grasslands. Should a wooded hill town hex be created?

[Thorf]

I figured that meant the forests around them had been cleared for several miles.

I think that was exactly what I had in mind when I made that variant map. It seems likely that the area around the settlements would be at least partially cleared - and it only needs to be roughly half cleared to warrant having a standard hills hex.

You could certainly argue that some of the settlements should probably be on a forested hex-coloured background. Probably Koriszegy Keep, and maybe Luln too. But the others - Verge, Threshold, Penhaligon and Highforge - I deliberately placed patches of bare hills around.

Incidentally, I've changed the palette drastically since I made the variant map. When I finally have all the preparations done to go ahead and make the expanded updated map (showing neighbouring countries too), I will make a new variant map too. The new palette will probably make the hill hexes stand out a little less.

In the meantime, I'm open to any suggestions regarding the variant map, as it is very much a work in progress.

[LoZompatore]

About the wood issue: what about referring to the Karameikos map from Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure? It seems to me it shows forested area pretty well...

[Thorf]

LoZompatore: Yep, that's what the updated map is. The variant "mostly forests Karameikos" came about at the very beginning of my project, based on notes in the Gazetteer that the forests of Karameikos continue from the coasts up into the mountains. Even though the Gazetteer states this, I wasn't happy making this my "official" updated map, so I went with a variant instead, for people who want to use that version.

There are a few maps that have variants like this. Mostly they are alternate takes on the map, with major or minor changes that may be slightly controversial, and so haven't been incorporated directly into the updated map.

[Thorf]

Update: Revised the replica maps and added PDF versions.

I made a whole slew of minor tweaks, including: changing from Baldur to Feinen; changing to the latest version of the castle border and the latest hill hex art; reworking some rivers and many roads to make them match the original more exactly; redoing the desert in the corner; adding a barely visible hex art error (a mountain in hill colours); revising the original colours palette; changing the shipping trail art to match GAZ1's; and so on. (Yes there were more tweaks.)

Of the Gazetteer series, only GAZ2 now remains without PDF versions of its maps.

[Andaire]

How come Vandevicsny isn't on the variant map?

[Thorf]

How come Vandevicsny isn't on the variant map?

The variant is way out of date - I haven't updated it since June 2005. And it seems I had the dates the wrong way round in the first post. I've corrected them now.

I will likely update the variant map when I get back to work on the main updated map, because the variant uses it as a base.

[Andaire]

Have you ever put to a vote which variant is the preferred one? I know I prefer the variant with the forested hills - I never liked all those hills in the original Karameikos map.

[Thorf]

Have you ever put to a vote which variant is the preferred one? I know I prefer the variant with the forested hills - I never liked all those hills in the original Karameikos map.

I don't think we've ever had a vote on it, although I've certainly had a lot of positive comments about the forested hills variant. I expect it would win.

Let's do a poll when I release the new version.

[TraverseTravis]

Thorf, I love the Updated Map. Do you plan on incorporating any of the locales that Simone included in his "Detail of the Threshold Region"?

Travis

[Thorf]

Thorf, I love the Updated Map. Do you plan on incorporating any of the locales that Simone included in his "Detail of the Threshold Region"?

That's a good question. The answer is actually somewhat complicated.

First, the map contains both official and unofficial locations. In the context of the Atlas, official locations can be added to the main map while unofficial ones will be added to an unofficial variant map. In other words, there will be one map that is 100% based on official sources (including derivations and placements of official locations), and another or in fact multiple other maps which incorporate unofficial sources. The official map can be used by anyone who bases their version of Mystara on official sources, while the unofficial map has a slightly narrower audience.

Second, the scale of Simone's map is such that it can afford to include much more detail than this map can. While it may be possible to incorporate some of the larger details, most of it cannot be brought back to this map. More specifically, it's unlikely that any of the villages or minor trails and such would be incorporated, although rivers and lakes would be a possibility.

I really like Simone's map, so I agree it would be nice to incorporate at least some of the details.

[TraverseTravis]

Okay, that makes sense -- thanks for responding!

[Zendrolion]

First, the map contains both official and unofficial locations.

I completely agree about your take on the official vs unofficial issue.

Just wanted to say that all locations (at least IIRC, but I'm quite sure) featured in the map Travis linked are official. What's mine in most cases is the choice of their position, but general indications given in canon sources were respected, and more recent sources were favored over older ones.

[Thorf]

First, the map contains both official and unofficial locations.

I completely agree about your take on the official vs unofficial issue.

Just wanted to say that all locations (at least IIRC, but I'm quite sure) featured in the map Travis linked are official. What's mine in most cases is the choice of their position, but general indications given in canon sources were respected, and more recent sources were favored over older ones.

Oops... I was thinking of your other recent Karameikos map - the one for MGAZ1. You are of course completely correct. Anything and everything official (or officially-derived) that fits the 8 mile per hex scale is eligible for addition to my updated map, so your map is a good reference for things to add.

[Vile]

I figured that meant the forests around them had been cleared for several miles.

I think that was exactly what I had in mind when I made that variant map. It seems likely that the area around the settlements would be at least partially cleared - and it only needs to be roughly half cleared to warrant having a standard hills hex.

I do think the city/town/etc. hexes would look better with the background colour of their surroundings. That would be grass-green for most of them, but those in the bare hills could be brown (Verge and Threshold). I'm not sure about Roverfolk Keep, Highforge and Penhaligon - they could be sand-coloured, but also green. As for the revised palette, I've personally always thought the bare hills colour looked too much like sand dunes ...