[Outer World] Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

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[Outer World] Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:03 pm

Karameikos, 8 miles per hex by Thorf

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Click on the thumbnails to view these maps' pages in the Atlas of Mystara, where you can get the full resolution maps.

If you have any comments, corrections, or suggestions for things to add to the map, please post them here.
Last edited by Thorf on Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:11 pm, edited 15 times in total.
Reason: Rewrote post completely.
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Re: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby JoeNotCharles » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:36 pm

I know you probably went over this on the old board, but can you summarize the Threshold Problem?
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Re: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Cthulhudrew » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:21 am

Thorf can clarify, but I think what he's referring to is the mapping problem that came up predominantly with the difference between the B10: Night's Dark Terror map of Karameikos and the Gaz1 map. In B10 (which came first, and is actually a very detailed map of the area), Threshold is located north and slightly west of the town of Rifllian. On the Gaz1 and later maps, Threshold is located north and east of Rifllian. There are also differences in the way the Windrush River and its tributaries are depicted as well.

IMO, the most amiable solution has been to shift the location of Threshold on the 8 mi/hex map one hex to the southwest, and chalk up the rest of the differences to one of scale.

Of course, Thorf could also be referring to the fact that the B10 map uses hexes that are lined up in a different direction from the other maps (with the points north/south rather than the flats north/south), or the different scales of the maps.
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby shanatus » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:35 am

Do you have access to the trail maps? I have scans of them if you want them. They are very detailed. Email me if you want me to email you copies: srwaterpolo @ msn.com
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Andaire » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:35 pm

On the variant map, some cities/towns/whatever like Luln and Koriszegy appear with the wrong background color (ie the original one), shouldn't they match the green of their now forested surroundings?
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby JoeNotCharles » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:22 pm

Andaire wrote:On the variant map, some cities/towns/whatever like Luln and Koriszegy appear with the wrong background color (ie the original one), shouldn't they match the green of their now forested surroundings?


I figured that meant the forests around them had been cleared for several miles.
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Andaire » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:32 pm

Possible, but they do stand out in that color, among that sea of green. Not sure what the solution might be, the towns with a green background, in the south, are I guess those surrounded by prairie/grasslands. Should a wooded hill town hex be created?
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:05 am

JoeNotCharles wrote:I figured that meant the forests around them had been cleared for several miles.


I think that was exactly what I had in mind when I made that variant map. It seems likely that the area around the settlements would be at least partially cleared - and it only needs to be roughly half cleared to warrant having a standard hills hex.

You could certainly argue that some of the settlements should probably be on a forested hex-coloured background. Probably Koriszegy Keep, and maybe Luln too. But the others - Verge, Threshold, Penhaligon and Highforge - I deliberately placed patches of bare hills around.

Incidentally, I've changed the palette drastically since I made the variant map. When I finally have all the preparations done to go ahead and make the expanded updated map (showing neighbouring countries too), I will make a new variant map too. The new palette will probably make the hill hexes stand out a little less.

In the meantime, I'm open to any suggestions regarding the variant map, as it is very much a work in progress.
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby LoZompatore » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:35 pm

About the wood issue: what about referring to the Karameikos map from Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure? It seems to me it shows forested area pretty well...
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:44 pm

LoZompatore: Yep, that's what the updated map is. The variant "mostly forests Karameikos" came about at the very beginning of my project, based on notes in the Gazetteer that the forests of Karameikos continue from the coasts up into the mountains. Even though the Gazetteer states this, I wasn't happy making this my "official" updated map, so I went with a variant instead, for people who want to use that version.

There are a few maps that have variants like this. Mostly they are alternate takes on the map, with major or minor changes that may be slightly controversial, and so haven't been incorporated directly into the updated map.
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:22 am

Update: Revised the replica maps and added PDF versions.

I made a whole slew of minor tweaks, including: changing from Baldur to Feinen; changing to the latest version of the castle border and the latest hill hex art; reworking some rivers and many roads to make them match the original more exactly; redoing the desert in the corner; adding a barely visible hex art error (a mountain in hill colours); revising the original colours palette; changing the shipping trail art to match GAZ1's; and so on. (Yes there were more tweaks.)

Of the Gazetteer series, only GAZ2 now remains without PDF versions of its maps.
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Andaire » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:10 pm

How come Vandevicsny isn't on the variant map?
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:11 pm

Andaire wrote:How come Vandevicsny isn't on the variant map?


The variant is way out of date - I haven't updated it since June 2005. And it seems I had the dates the wrong way round in the first post. I've corrected them now.

I will likely update the variant map when I get back to work on the main updated map, because the variant uses it as a base.
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Andaire » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:05 pm

Have you ever put to a vote which variant is the preferred one? I know I prefer the variant with the forested hills - I never liked all those hills in the original Karameikos map.
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:48 pm

Andaire wrote:Have you ever put to a vote which variant is the preferred one? I know I prefer the variant with the forested hills - I never liked all those hills in the original Karameikos map.


I don't think we've ever had a vote on it, although I've certainly had a lot of positive comments about the forested hills variant. I expect it would win.

Let's do a poll when I release the new version. :D
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby TraverseTravis » Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:25 pm

Thorf, I love the Updated Map. Do you plan on incorporating any of the locales that Simone included in his "Detail of the Threshold Region"?

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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:47 am

TraverseTravis wrote:Thorf, I love the Updated Map. Do you plan on incorporating any of the locales that Simone included in his "Detail of the Threshold Region"?


That's a good question. The answer is actually somewhat complicated.

First, the map contains both official and unofficial locations. In the context of the Atlas, official locations can be added to the main map while unofficial ones will be added to an unofficial variant map. In other words, there will be one map that is 100% based on official sources (including derivations and placements of official locations), and another or in fact multiple other maps which incorporate unofficial sources. The official map can be used by anyone who bases their version of Mystara on official sources, while the unofficial map has a slightly narrower audience.

Second, the scale of Simone's map is such that it can afford to include much more detail than this map can. While it may be possible to incorporate some of the larger details, most of it cannot be brought back to this map. More specifically, it's unlikely that any of the villages or minor trails and such would be incorporated, although rivers and lakes would be a possibility.

I really like Simone's map, so I agree it would be nice to incorporate at least some of the details. :D
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby TraverseTravis » Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:20 am

Okay, that makes sense -- thanks for responding!
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Zendrolion » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:29 am

Thorf wrote:First, the map contains both official and unofficial locations.


I completely agree about your take on the official vs unofficial issue.

Just wanted to say that all locations (at least IIRC, but I'm quite sure) featured in the map Travis linked are official. What's mine in most cases is the choice of their position, but general indications given in canon sources were respected, and more recent sources were favored over older ones. ;)
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:42 am

Zendrolion wrote:
Thorf wrote:First, the map contains both official and unofficial locations.


I completely agree about your take on the official vs unofficial issue.

Just wanted to say that all locations (at least IIRC, but I'm quite sure) featured in the map Travis linked are official. What's mine in most cases is the choice of their position, but general indications given in canon sources were respected, and more recent sources were favored over older ones. ;)


Oops... I was thinking of your other recent Karameikos map - the one for MGAZ1. :oops: You are of course completely correct. :D Anything and everything official (or officially-derived) that fits the 8 mile per hex scale is eligible for addition to my updated map, so your map is a good reference for things to add.
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Vile » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:26 pm

Thorf wrote:
JoeNotCharles wrote:I figured that meant the forests around them had been cleared for several miles.
I think that was exactly what I had in mind when I made that variant map. It seems likely that the area around the settlements would be at least partially cleared - and it only needs to be roughly half cleared to warrant having a standard hills hex.

I do think the city/town/etc. hexes would look better with the background colour of their surroundings. That would be grass-green for most of them, but those in the bare hills could be brown (Verge and Threshold). I'm not sure about Roverfolk Keep, Highforge and Penhaligon - they could be sand-coloured, but also green. As for the revised palette, I've personally always thought the bare hills colour looked too much like sand dunes ...
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Chimpman » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:23 pm

I just thought I would post a link to this discussion about the village of Sisak (from Dungeon #24), since it seems that information might be pertinent to this map. Not sure if Sisak should appear on a map of this scale, but I'd hate to loose those thoughts.
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:33 am

I've been tweaking, and tweaking some more, and there's still stuff I could do. But I think I'm done for now. The new version of the map will be published an hour and a half from now. Please let me know what you think! The link is in the top post of this thread.
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby religon » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:26 pm

Outstanding work… especially the outer glow for labels. One tweak if you ever reopen this project might be to label the Achelos R. as it runs into the Blight Swamp. (Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure, p. 8) I am constantly forgetting whether the river is the Cruth or the Achelos after the confluence.
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Re: Outer World: Karameikos, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:53 am

religon wrote:Outstanding work… especially the outer glow for labels. One tweak if you ever reopen this project might be to label the Achelos R. as it runs into the Blight Swamp. (Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure, p. 8) I am constantly forgetting whether the river is the Cruth or the Achelos after the confluence.


That's a great idea, religon. And thanks for the suggestion — if you have any more, or corrections, please post them too. I am always up for adding these to the map, and I can easily update the maps on the blog to new versions as necessary.

I agree that marking the Achelos River would be preferential — it's always nice to have the main river in a network clearly marked out. The only potential problem with this is lack of space is that area. It's already quite packed. But I may be able to shrink the forest labels a tad. I'll have a tweak and see what I can do.
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