[Outer World] Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

A directory of geographical maps for the world of Mystara.

Moderators: Seer of Yhog, Havard, Thorf

User avatar
Zendrolion
Stone Giant
Posts: 686
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 12:19 pm
Gender: male
Location: Firenze (Italia)
Contact:

Re: Outer World: Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

Post by Zendrolion » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:27 pm

Chimpman wrote:I'd prefer to add as much detail as possible to an Updated map (without overloading it), regardless of whether or not that detail was on the original. Thorf has created Originals as well Updated versions so I don't feel like we are loosing anything by modifying the updated version. As long as there are references that support those changes, the map should still be considered "official". The thing to keep in mind is that when these were originally done, they were created on a timeline and strict budget. The original authors didn't have time to get it perfect... just enough time to get it to be "good enough." Details will suffer for this. But as a community we can spend all the time and effort that we want on these projects, so I don't see adding more details as taking anything away from the map's officialness. ...And I know you said this half in jest, but I wouldn't be averse to adding badlands or broken lands hexes around Nithia either... ;)
Understand me, I'm not saying that adding the forested hill hexes in Piedmont is the ultimate evil. :D

I'm only saying that, if we're to respect strictly (and that could not necessarily what we want to do) the canonic informations extrapolated from maps and/or modules, we should accept that in this single case the map's implication is that those Nicostenian woods should cover less than half each 8-m hex on the GAZ2 map.

Obviously, as Thorf said above, there are a lot of cases in which maps don't match the descriptions given in the GAZs - Karameikos' hills being the most evident example. In that case, an update of the map is mandatory; but in Piedmont's one, is it really? Or can we just explain Ylaruam's source of lumber as many small separated patches of woods, each of whom isn't large enough to fill an 8-m hex?

By the way, if Thorf decides to keep the forested hill hexes, I'd rather use the alternative Chipman suggested 8-) :
How would it look if we had 4 or 5 forested hill hexes interspersed with the normal hill hex. That would still give the visual cue that there are trees here, but may also imply that they are sparsely populated? I'm trying to think "what would I do if I were going to take that area and create a 1mi/hex map?" If I saw all those forested hills hexes together I would probably just create one big lump of forested hexes. However if I saw forested hills hexes interspersed with normal hills I might start to think, "Hey, why did they do that? This must not be a single large area covered by forested hills."
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5

User avatar
Seer of Yhog
Outer Being
Posts: 3205
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 1:29 am
Gender: male
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: Outer World: Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:30 pm

Love the map - much better than the original!

Now then...let's get the history of Ennaej worked out... :geek:
Moderator for Mystara. My moderator voice is heliotrope.

My Blog is here!

User avatar
Thorf
Cartomancer
Posts: 2392
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 2:41 am
Gender: male
Location: Akita, Japan
Contact:

Re: [Outer World] Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:46 am

I just posted the finished updated map over at the Atlas of Mystara.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread! The map is far better for it. :D

fabriziohockey
Goblin
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:39 pm
Gender: male

Re: [Outer World] Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

Post by fabriziohockey » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:34 pm

Hello,

First, I must thank Thorfinn for his generosity, the biggest work of mapping Mystara and ... for giving me this chance to modify it. :oops:

Second, my 0,01 euros :)

I modified Thorfinn Ylaruam's 8 miles map in this way:
1) I added human's population levels:
- (green = settled;
- yellow = borderlands;
- light blue = wilderness;
- other colours = no human population (but … what about monsters?? :evil: ).
2) I created n. 3 vassals of Alasiya and n. 1 vassal of Nicostenia (bordered in red and withe): Alasiya and Nicostenia resource's income are really huge, so them have to create vassals or lose a part (more than 15.000 gp/month "resource's" income, with Rules Cyclopedia dominion's economic);
3) even Nithia needs its vassal (Cinsa Men Noo), but due to the significant differences between the coastal part and the internal area;
4) I added Barimoor's Underground Complex (mapped in Gazetter 2);
5) I added 300 people as Dar El Tamyya population (these 300 people are the difference between 229.700 in Gaz. 2 and 230.000 in PWA1 and TM2);
6) I placed Kirkuk in Makistan Emirate, instead in Dithestenia (*).

Image

(*) About Kirkuk's placement:
- Dithestenia is a really an under-populated Emirate: I think we cannot place here the Kirkuk village (400 people, with other people in surronding area), simply because this Emirate hasn't enough population (and not enough military strenght to protect its territory);
- there are at least 650 nomads living around Kirkuk, plus a group of 130 bandits: too many people (400+650+130 = 1.180) for the under-populated Dithestenia (total population of 7.600);
- Barimoor's Agents strike Kirkuk (this means Kirkuk must be close the "Barimoor's underground complex"; the hills in the middle of Dithestenia aren't);
- Gaz. 2 describes Kirkuk as a city in an hilly region close to the Altan Tepes (there are rains), but it's also very close to the desert;
- placing Kirkuk in Makistan, we meet all the conditions described in the Gazetter 2 (even the presence of the the ruins of the Thyatian fort could be reasonable) and makes the city a "key-place" to keep away the Barimoor's enemies;
- another good placement could be in Nicostenia (the 2nd hex, south/west Cubis) but, again, Cubis seems far from the " Barimoor's underground Complex".

Gazetter 2 indicates the following human population levels (people/sqm):
- coastal plain (settled): 40-70 people/sqm (more in Nithia-Abbashan-Nicostenia biggest cities);
- grassland (settled): 10-20 people/sqm;
- upland (settled): 5-10 people/sqm;
- upland (and every other) "borderlands" hex: 1-5 people/sqm;
- upland/desert (and every other) "wilderness" hex: less than 1 people/sqm;
- desert borderland hex: 30-60/sqm (this is surely wrong: we know borderland hexes cannot have more than 5 people/square mile)
I've added:
- plain (settled): 10-40 people/sqm (or more);
- oasi (settled): 10-20 people/sqm.

We know an 8 miles hex has 55,426 square miles (sqm).

Knowing this, for each Emirate, we can calculate how many people lives in each settled/borderland/wilderness hex.

Note 1: vassals must have enough population to substain their expenses.

Note 2: considering all the Emirates, it's difficult for me only to respect a density of 40-70 people/square mile for settled coastal plains in Nithia and Abbashan; seems I have to reduce the number of settled plains (coastal and not) in these Emirates ...

(as soon as possible I will add Emirates population statistics)
Last edited by fabriziohockey on Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:28 pm, edited 37 times in total.

User avatar
Robin
Storm Giant
Posts: 1745
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:33 pm
Gender: female
Location: Netherland Groningen
Contact:

Re: [Outer World] Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

Post by Robin » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:24 pm

fabriziohockey wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:34 pm
Hello,

First, I must thank Thorfinn for his generosity, the biggest work of mapping Mystara and ... for giving me this chance to modify it. :oops:
.............................
Great Information...very useful when I finish Ethengar 1 mile hex map and begin with Ylaruam 1 mile hex map (and Nithia era based on my earlier Nithia 8 mile hex map, and Morgreth era to locate all the former ruins, settlements, features).
One question; in some of the last Threshold Magazines, I believe to remember Sturm had also created Bolderland, wilderness and civilized areas in this very region, Do you intend to use those to mix together?....I would probably)
My Deviantart page; http://6inchnails.deviantart.com/ For Mystara hexmaps and Fantasy art (to see all fantasy art; enter and declare you are an adult...frigging exposure rules)
My personal Mystara Blog;http://breathofmystara.blogspot.nl/

User avatar
Sturm
Green Dragon
Posts: 4971
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:26 pm
Gender: male
Location: Genoa, Italy
Contact:

Re: [Outer World] Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

Post by Sturm » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:47 am

Yes I did, here is the article of Threshold issue 16 http://pandius.com/uknwntm4.html and here are the maps: http://pandius.com/Ylaruam_people.png and http://pandius.com/Ylaruam_wilderlands.png
I described wilderlands regions with the possible population of non-human intelligent creatures.
In general I prefer a rather high density of intelligent creatures.

fabriziohockey
Goblin
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:39 pm
Gender: male

Re: [Outer World] Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

Post by fabriziohockey » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:59 am

I saw this map very few time ago, on Pandius, while I was looking for a suitable map for my demographic representation.
Sturm wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:47 am
... http://pandius.com/Ylaruam_wilderlands.png
The demographic informations on which I rely are essentially those of Gazetteer 2, with something from PWA1 and TM2.

In fact, I resumed my old work that I had interrupted in 2007 and I'm happy to see other people with the same old questions: when players go around the world, where are the people? where are the monsters? who controls what? where a player can create his kingdom? and so on ...

(p.s. actually I made similar jobs for Norwold, Karameikos and Glantri; but Ylaruam is the most updated)
Last edited by fabriziohockey on Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Sturm
Green Dragon
Posts: 4971
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:26 pm
Gender: male
Location: Genoa, Italy
Contact:

Re: [Outer World] Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

Post by Sturm » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:05 am

Indeed, canon sources are quite lacking on this aspect, so it most depends on each DM's preferences. I like to have my wilderlands quite populated :)

fabriziohockey
Goblin
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:39 pm
Gender: male

Re: [Outer World] Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

Post by fabriziohockey » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:33 am

Sturm wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:05 am
I like to have my wilderlands quite populated :)
This is in the spirit of the game: the DM builds his world :D

At the beginning, even I placed some people along the trade road between Chtesiphon and Tameronikas (surely there is someone, but with a really hard life).

I think Ylaruam is really interesting for this reason: is the Kingdom with lesser food and water capacity in the Known World.
If we ask, "how much food is needed for these people to live?", Ylaruam is at the bottom (Dythestenia or Nithia)

User avatar
Sturm
Green Dragon
Posts: 4971
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:26 pm
Gender: male
Location: Genoa, Italy
Contact:

Re: [Outer World] Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

Post by Sturm » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:58 pm

Sure, nevertheless real world constraints are not necessarily true for fantasy where clerics for example can create food and water...

fabriziohockey
Goblin
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:39 pm
Gender: male

Re: [Outer World] Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

Post by fabriziohockey » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:45 pm

Sturm wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:58 pm
Sure, nevertheless real world constraints are not necessarily true for fantasy where clerics for example can create food and water...
You are right, but seems we are going away.

In my campaign I thought to give a bonus to the Emirate's food production, due to the clerical power to create food and water.
This doens't mean that clerics can substain "automatically" most or all the population; clerical power helps, but could be not enough … :|
As ex. Abbashan: there, the "clerical power" generates about 10% food (obviously I'm using an Excel file to calculate all).

Another DM could think: "let's calculate how many clerics there are in a Kingdom, with enough power to substain its population!".
I remember there are such rules in D&D 3.0 (DM Book) but, again, we need the "Excel power" :D

And, obviously, another DM could easily say to his players: "don't worry for your 500.000 people in your new wonderful city in the desert! you have clerics!".

But seems Barimoor wins all: "just" a wizard with enough food/water to substain 100-200.000 "followers" hidden in the underground complex ... :o
Last edited by fabriziohockey on Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Sturm
Green Dragon
Posts: 4971
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:26 pm
Gender: male
Location: Genoa, Italy
Contact:

Re: [Outer World] Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

Post by Sturm » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:53 am

I'd like such calculations, want to share them?
In medieval times, clerical population could be up to 2% of the population, but it depends in fantasy at what levels such clerics are...
Ylaruam could have such a percentage, or nearly so but 8-9th level clerics are not gonna be so many indeed

fabriziohockey
Goblin
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:39 pm
Gender: male

Re: [Outer World] Ylaruam, 8 miles per hex

Post by fabriziohockey » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:36 pm

Hi again,

I changed something on the coast, reducing the civilization levels.
This was necessary due to the demographic levels indicated for the settled coastal plains (40-70 people/sqm).

This is my map (last edited 15.02.2019):
Image

1) Alasiya (50.050):
- plain (settled): 8 hexes, 13.600 pop. (30,67/sqm) + 22.900 in cities/suburban;
- oasi (settled): 6 hexes, 4.200 pop. (12,63/sqm);
- desert (borderland): 33 hexes, 6.600 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- desert (Wilderness): 55 hexes, 2.750 pop. (0,90/sqm).

Deraan (10.600):
- plain (settled): 3 hexes, 4.875 pop. (29,32/sqm) + 1.100 in Deraan;
- oasi (settled): 1 hex, 675 pop. (12,18/sqm);
- upland (settled): 3 hexes, 1.200 pop. (7,22/sqm);
- upland (borderland): 4 hexes, 800 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- upland (Wilderness): 7 hexes, 350 pop. (0,90/sqm);
- desert (borderland): 6 hexes, 1.200 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- desert (wilderness): 8 hexes, 400 pop. (0,90/sqm).

Kuznetz (8.850):
- plain (settled): 2 hexes, 3.450 pop. (31,12/sqm) + 1.050 in Kuznetz;
- oasi (settled): 1 hexes, 700 pop. (12,63/sqm);
- upland (borderland): 1 hex, 200 pop. (3,61/sqm) + 300 in Dar-El-Tammyya;
- upland (Wilderness): 5 hexes, 250 pop. (0,90sqm);
- desert (borderland): 11 hexes, 2.200 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- desert (wilderness): 14 hexes, 700 pop. (0,90/sqm).

Hedjazi (8.800):
- plain (settled): 2 hexes, 3.450 pop. (31,12/sqm) + 1.200 in Hedjazi;
- oasi (settled): 2 hexes, 1.400 pop. (12,63/sqm);
- desert (borderland): 10 hexes, 2.000 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- desert (wilderness): 15 hexes, 750 pop. (0,90/sqm).

2) Nicostenia (44.000):
- plain (settled): 4 hexes, 7.700 pop. (34,73/sqm);
- coastal plain (settled): 7 hexes, 24.325 pop. (62,70/sqm) + 4.000 in Tameronikas;
- upland (settled): 15 hexes, 6.375 pop. (7,67/sqm);
- upland (borderland): 6 hexes, 1.350 pop. (4,06/sqm);
- upland (wilderness): 5 hexes, 250 pop. (0,90/sqm).

Cubis (21.000):
- plain (settled): 2 hexes, 3.000 pop. (27,06/sqm);
- coastal plain (settled): 6 hexes, 15.450 pop. (46,46/sqm) + 1.000 in Cubis;
- desert (borderland): 6 hexes, 1.200 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- desert (wilderness): 7 hexes, 350 pop. (0,90/sqm).

3) Makistan (31.500):
- grassland (settled): 23 hexes, 18.400 pop. (14,43/sqm) + 6.500 in 4 cities;
- grassland (borderland): 9 hexes, 2.250 pop. (4,51/sqm);
- upland (borderland): 2 hexes, 450 pop. (4,06/sqm);
- upland (wilderness): 8 hexes, 400 pop. (0,90/sqm);
- desert (borderland): 12 hexes, 2.400 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- desert (wilderness): 14 hexes, 700 pop. (0,90/sqm).

4) Abbashan (30.000):
- plain (settled): 6 hexes, 6.150 pop. (18,49/sqm) + 4.300 in Abbashan;
- plain (borderland): 3 hexes, 600 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- coastal plain (settled): 3 hexes, 6.750 pop. (40,59/sqm) + 4.500 in Jaboor and Fabia;
- coastal plain (borderland): 5 hexes, 1.000 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- oasi (settled): 4 hexes, 2.500 pop. (11,28/sqm);
- desert (borderland): 17 hexes, 3.400 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- desert (wilderness): 16 hexes, 800 pop. (0,90/sqm).

5) Nithia (12.600):
- upland (settled): 2 hexes, 900 pop. (8,12/sqm);
- upland (borderland): 4 hexes, 800 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- upland (wilderness): 9 hexes, 450 pop. (0,90/sqm);
- plain (settled): 1 hex, 700 pop. (12,63/sqm);
- plain (borderland): 4 hexes, 800 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- plain (wilderness): 2 hexes, 100 pop. (0,90/sqm);
- coastal plain (settled): 3 hexes, 6.750 pop. (40,59/sqm) + 2.000 in Surra-Man-Raa;
- coastal plain (wilderness): 2 hexes, 100 pop. (0.90/sqm).

Cinsa-Men-Noo (5.000):
- upland (borderland): 3 hexes, 600 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- upland (wilderness): 4 hexes, 200 pop. (0,90/sqm);
- desert (borderland): 4 hexes, 800 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- desert (wildernaess): 5 hexes, 250 pop. (0,90/sqm);
- plain (settled): 1 hex, 1.450 pop. (26,16/sqm) + 1.100 in Cinsa-Men-Noo;
- oasi (settled): 1 hex. 600 pop. (10,83/sqm).

6) Dithestenia (7.600):
- upland (settled): 7 hexes, 3.360 pop. (8,66/sqm) + 1.000 in Ctesiphon;
- upland (borderland): 9 hexes, 1.800 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- upland (wilderness): 11 hexes, 550 pop. ( 0,90/sqm);
- desert (borderland): 4 hexes, 800 pop. (3,61/sqm);
- desert (wilderness): 2 hexes, 90 pop. (0,81/sqm).

Total population 230.000 (*)
(*) PWA1 and TM2 indicate the Emirates population in 230.000 people; Gaz. 2 indicates in 229.700 people.
I considered the 300 more as Dar El Tamiyya inhabitants.

GMs that want a larger civilization area, could reduce the density of wild hexes to 0.45/sqm (you will have twice the wilderness hexes); as ex. you may want to assign 0.45 to the wilderness hexes of Dithestenia, in order to distribute some of the population on the trade route hexes (which are now without population).
However, in this way there would be areas with a stable presence (nomads) even 24 miles away in the desert (too much?), as well as involving "very hot points" such as the Barimoor's underground complex. Anyway, it's a GMs choice.

PS 1: I apologize for the many changes in my first post.
PS 2: I would like share calculations on the support of the population when ready (I'm still working on it) and in antoher topic.

Post Reply

Return to “Geographical Mapping”