Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

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Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:12 pm

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Replica of Geoff Gander's 1997 map, 40 miles per hex by Thorf, March 2009
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Updated map of Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex by Thorf, March 2009
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This is the first unofficial map I've done so far, so in many ways the format is experimental. I decided to continue with my usual process of doing a replica then updating it - it's just the best way to get things to be accurate, and it makes it easy to find any problems.

The original map had numbers keyed to the Gazetteer. I have placed the captions directly on the map.

Please let me know what you think about this map, as well as the whole process of doing non-TSR maps. I had a lot of fun making this one. :)

Sources: The Empire of Selhomarr (1997-1999) by Geoff Gander, Hollow World Campaign Set (1990).

Notes on XXX
To Do List
References
  1. Selhomarr section in the Atlas at the Vaults of Pandius
Thanks to: Geoff Gander (Seer of Yhog)
Last edited by Thorf on Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Changed file names.

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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:15 pm

Here you are Geoff... I remade your original map, then raided the Vaults for captions. I got more than I bargained for (you sure did make up a lot of place names!), and it's easy to see that it really needs to be remade into a much bigger map - 8 miles per hex would be wonderful. :D

It is of course your map, so please let me know what changes need to be made. Don't hold back. I'm ready for you. :geek:

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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Havard » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:33 pm

Wow!

With a Thorf-made map, who would say Selhomarr isn't canon? :)

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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Andaire » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:50 pm

Yep, that's the ultimate recognition!
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:51 pm

Hehe. :D

I'm quite amused with the original colours version, personally. The thumbnail looks so like the original, it's just funny. It doesn't look quite so similar at full size of course, because Geoff's original was hand-drawn.

Two questions for Geoff: first, what is the correct spelling of Korvoris Forest? The list of cities has it as Kovoris, but the other references I found all had Korvoris.

Also, I've noticed with this map and also your Davania maps that your hexes are not a regular grid; I had an awful time trying to line it up underneath my grid for using as a guide. For Davania, I actually ended up cutting up the image into pieces in Photoshop so that it would align properly. Any idea why this should be? Your maps were hand-drawn on hex paper and then scanned in a flatbed scanner, right? It's a bit of a mystery. :?

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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Chimpman » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:10 pm

Wow Thorf, this looks great! The perfect 10 year anniversary gift for Selhomarr ;)
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:28 pm

One more thing: I split the forests into light and heavy forest as best I could, but it is of course completely open to changes. Also, I wasn't sure if I should mark any predominantly evergreen forests, so I left everything deciduous for now.

What does everyone think of the large "SURIDAL" caption? Or the widely-kerned (i.e. widely-spaced) title for the country itself? I'm trying to find ways to make these things more obvious, and the best changes will be carried over into the next pass through my updated maps.

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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Chimpman » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:58 pm

Thorf wrote:One more thing: I split the forests into light and heavy forest as best I could, but it is of course completely open to changes. Also, I wasn't sure if I should mark any predominantly evergreen forests, so I left everything deciduous for now.

What does everyone think of the large "SURIDAL" caption? Or the widely-kerned (i.e. widely-spaced) title for the country itself? I'm trying to find ways to make these things more obvious, and the best changes will be carried over into the next pass through my updated maps.
The first thing I noticed was the size of the SURIDAL caption... I'm not sure, but I think it might be too big. My eyes are always being drawn to it and that kind of takes away from the rest of the map. The rest of the captions I really like. Both size and spacing seem to be right.
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Gawain_VIII » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:09 pm

Absolutely beautiful! I love the inclusion of the inverted hollow compass rose.

Concerning the label of Suridal. I think that the kerning is about right, but the actual size of the font does seem a bit large compared to everything else. Definitely it should be larger than other labels... but not that large. Also the placement of the Suridal label, running down the mtn range, seems to give off the wrong impression that you're labelling the mountain chain rather than the island/continent.

And I agree... a Thorf-made, Gaz-style map definitely places this as close to canon as you can get without a WotC decree/sanction.

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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:53 pm

Thorf wrote:Here you are Geoff... I remade your original map, then raided the Vaults for captions. I got more than I bargained for (you sure did make up a lot of place names!), and it's easy to see that it really needs to be remade into a much bigger map - 8 miles per hex would be wonderful. :D

It is of course your map, so please let me know what changes need to be made. Don't hold back. I'm ready for you. :geek:
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Thorf, thank you for this! You've just made my month! Now, I'll definitely have to get home fast so I can view the images (darned Internet filters at work *grumble*)
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:57 pm

Thorf wrote:Two questions for Geoff: first, what is the correct spelling of Korvoris Forest? The list of cities has it as Kovoris, but the other references I found all had Korvoris.
That should be "Korvoris"
Thorf wrote:Also, I've noticed with this map and also your Davania maps that your hexes are not a regular grid; I had an awful time trying to line it up underneath my grid for using as a guide. For Davania, I actually ended up cutting up the image into pieces in Photoshop so that it would align properly. Any idea why this should be? Your maps were hand-drawn on hex paper and then scanned in a flatbed scanner, right? It's a bit of a mystery. :?
That IS weird! I took a hex sheet from one of the D&D books and photocopied it. Perhaps there was a slight curvature of the book on the photocopier? :?: But you're right about the scanning - the sheet was laid on a flatbed scanner.
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Cthulhudrew » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:14 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:That IS weird! I took a hex sheet from one of the D&D books and photocopied it. Perhaps there was a slight curvature of the book on the photocopier? :?: But you're right about the scanning - the sheet was laid on a flatbed scanner.
Seems to me I recall discovering something similar about the blank hex map from the Expert set book (Mentzer set). I have a vague recollection of using that hex map to make photocopies and finding there was something slightly off with them when trying to line up different copies next to one another. Or something. Maybe I'm misremembering.
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by multizar » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:22 am

Another most excellent map Thorf! :D
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:29 am

I can now view the images....

*opens files*

Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.........

I'm speechless.

I'm downloading all of them, so I can look at them again, and again, at my leisure. Oh yes, and I'll send comments, too.

:mrgreen:

Yes, I'll definitely have to work out an 8-mile hex version.
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Andaire » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:06 pm

Gawain_VIII wrote:Absolutely beautiful! I love the inclusion of the inverted hollow compass rose.
I love that HW compass. To me, it really screams "Mystara"!
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:18 am

Andaire wrote:
Gawain_VIII wrote:Absolutely beautiful! I love the inclusion of the inverted hollow compass rose.
I love that HW compass. To me, it really screams "Mystara"!
Yes, I completely agree. That's why I made an Outer World version and have been using it on my updated maps for the past few years. But lately I've been wondering if perhaps I should keep that one for the Hollow World and use a different one for the Outer World, for the sake of clarity.

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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:25 pm

I've started combing through the Gaz to compare it with the map, and here is the first round of comments/observations:

- I'd convert the markers for Xirenyos, Olathis, and Sepirolos into towns.
- Belothis and Olathis are located on the Ilannir Peninsula (only mentioned once). If that creates too much text, this could be saved for an 8-mile hex version.
- The Plains of Aymira technically stretch from the Calimnissian Flow all the way to the coast - perhaps the title could be printed horizontally just below the border?
- Forests should be confierous south of the empire and on Forsaken Steppes, and on forested hill hexes south of the city of Garith.
- A few dense forest hexes near Garith (within the empire) should be coniferous - northern part of the Rethelnis Forest should remain deciduous, though.

I've also printed it out and drawn in the provincial borders. The map would (IMO) be too busy with those in there, but perhaps this could be saved for an 8-mile hex version.

To Do (mainly for me):

- 8 mile hex map
- Name the peninsula on which Myiad is located
- Name a bunch of bays (at least 4)
- Name the river north of Bay of Xerothnyi
- Name the grasslands shared by Regelnis and Ardeth
- For 8-mile hex version: search gaz for other place & geographic names and note them for inclusion
  • Arstina (town – near Heressina)
    Pergamnos (village – Calimnis)
    Pesinnir (10 mi. south of Calimnis)
    Prallis (far north)
    Xerathnis (village - Ardeth)
    Jurandis’ Citadel (Forsaken Steppes)
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:10 pm

Incidentally, does anyone (Thorf?) have a system for converting 40-mile hex maps to 8? I seem to recall, in his earlier maps of Iciria, that Thorf superimposed maps of Azca and Milenia to show how well the two scales complemented each other, but also that he'd worked out a method for doing it as well.
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Chimpman » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:30 pm

I don't know how Thorf did it, but here's how I would do it. The 8mi hex should be 8 miles from the left middle tip of the hex to the right middle tip of the hex. I'd take 5 of those hexes and line them up tip to tip (and not in the standard staggered way that they line up on a normal hex grid). That should give you 40 miles from the leftmost tip of the first hex, to the rightmost tip of the last hex. Then just take your original 40mi hex map and scale that up until all five of those 8mi hexes fit inside of a single 40mi hex.

Once you've done that you have the correct scaled size for the original map and you can overlay an 8mi hex grid on top of that. Then start filling in the blanks.

Or - more simply. If the hex grid you are using is the same size (in pixels) for both maps, simply scale your original 5:1.
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Cthulhudrew » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:39 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:Incidentally, does anyone (Thorf?) have a system for converting 40-mile hex maps to 8?
Here's the hex format I use for mine; I went through a couple of different versions early on in the process before I finally decided this is most likely what the TSR folk used for theirs. Based on the overlay that Thorf did of my Hutaaka map, it seems to work.

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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:10 am

Now it's my turn to be at work and not be able to reply properly. :lol:

Geoff, would it help if I whipped up a quick conversion into 8 miles per hex for you to work with? It's relatively easy to do in the way that Andrew and Chimpman explained. The first task is usually to mark all the 8 mile hexes in the terrain type identical to the one on the smaller scale map. After that it's a simple matter of refining the terrain to make it look less hexagonal and more natural, and adding in variation which the 40 mile per hex scale can't show.

I can easily create this base map for you.

Usually when I add in variation to the larger scale map I have to be careful not to put it out of sync with the original map, but in this case we don't really have that problem - we can always go back and revise the original 40 mile per hex map to reflect changes. (In fact we will be doing this anyway, because the larger scale inevitably adds details, some of which can then be brought in to the smaller scale - such as coastlines, for example.)
Seer of Yhog wrote:- I'd convert the markers for Xirenyos, Olathis, and Sepirolos into towns.
I did these strictly based on populations, using this page. Olathis is listed as 27,000, Xirenyos 15,200, and Sepirolos 16,000 - making them all cities in Expert Set terms, although the latter two are only just over the 15,000 minimum.
- Belothis and Olathis are located on the Ilannir Peninsula (only mentioned once). If that creates too much text, this could be saved for an 8-mile hex version.
It looks like there's space - I'll add it in. :)
- The Plains of Aymira technically stretch from the Calimnissian Flow all the way to the coast - perhaps the title could be printed horizontally just below the border?
I must confess I was a bit confused on this point - so I'm happy I got the general location right! ;)

Mightn't it be best to make the label curved and spaced out a bit to cover the whole area, say from the current location down to the coast below Dedremii?
- Forests should be confierous south of the empire and on Forsaken Steppes, and on forested hill hexes south of the city of Garith.
- A few dense forest hexes near Garith (within the empire) should be coniferous - northern part of the Rethelnis Forest should remain deciduous, though.
Okay, I'll add those in too. Any comments on my totally random assignment of heavy forests?
I've also printed it out and drawn in the provincial borders. The map would (IMO) be too busy with those in there, but perhaps this could be saved for an 8-mile hex version.
Hmm... We could try them out. It's certainly worth putting them on this map, even if they are usually hidden, because then the 8 mile per hex map's borders can be made to match up more closely.
To Do (mainly for me):
Cool! I think I'll add this to the first post as "To Do - Geoff". :D
Jurandis’ Citadel (Forsaken Steppes)
Could this be added to the small scale map too?

Incidentally: we'll start another thread for the 8 mile per hex map. If you want to do the honours, feel free to start a thread called "Hollow World: Selhomarr, 8 miles per hex". If you make sure to post a reply right away (so the first two posts in the thread are yours), I'll fill in the template stuff to the first post. (You starting the thread means that both of us can edit the first post with notes, updates, etc.) :)

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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by metal » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:36 am

Nice map Thorf, I'm looking forward to more..... :)
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:10 pm

Update: I made the changes outlined in the post above and reposted the updated map.

Let me know what you think, especially about the plains caption and the forests, as well as anything else that comes to mind. ;)

What does everyone think about the Suridal caption now? I moved it off the mountain and changed it to inline style, which is what I generally use for labels for large areas.

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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:26 pm

Thorf wrote:Geoff, would it help if I whipped up a quick conversion into 8 miles per hex for you to work with?
It definitely would, but given what I know of your schedule I'd be loath to load you down. If you can fit this in, I'd love to see it. Now, would I need any special software to do the edit, or could I use paint or something similar?
Thorf wrote:I did these strictly based on populations, using this page. Olathis is listed as 27,000, Xirenyos 15,200, and Sepirolos 16,000 - making them all cities in Expert Set terms, although the latter two are only just over the 15,000 minimum.
OK - I'll revise two of them downwards, population-wise. Thanks for pointed that out, as the Gaz can be updated to reflect this.
Thorf wrote:Mightn't it be best to make the label curved and spaced out a bit to cover the whole area, say from the current location down to the coast below Dedremii?
We can do that? That would be ideal! :D
Thorf wrote:Okay, I'll add those [forests] in too. Any comments on my totally random assignment of heavy forests?
I'll have a look at it tonight, when I can view the images.
Thorf wrote:Hmm... We could try them out. It's certainly worth putting them on this map, even if they are usually hidden, because then the 8 mile per hex map's borders can be made to match up more closely.
OK - I'll mark them down in MSPaint and post the map here.
Thorf wrote:Could this [Jurandis Citadel] be added to the small scale map too?
Sure can - it would be on the northernmost grassland hex of the Forsaken Steppes.
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Re: Hollow World: Selhomarr, 40 miles per hex

Post by Chimpman » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:35 pm

Thorf wrote:What does everyone think about the Suridal caption now? I moved it off the mountain and changed it to inline style, which is what I generally use for labels for large areas.
I think the Suridal caption placement is much better now Thorf.
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