[Outer World] Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

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[Outer World] Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:37 pm

Thyatis, 8 miles per hex by Thorf

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Click on the thumbnails to view these maps' pages in the Atlas of Mystara, where you can get the full resolution maps.

If you have any comments, corrections, or suggestions for things to add to the map, please post them here.

Sources: Dawn of the Emperors (1989), TM1 The Western Countries (1989), TM2 The Eastern Countries (1989), Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia (1991).
Last edited by Thorf on Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:38 am, edited 10 times in total.
Reason: Rewrote post completely.
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:30 pm

Oops... it seems I uploaded the thumbnails and then forgot to upload the actual maps! :oops: :lol:

They should all be there now. :D
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Zendrolion » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:16 pm

I've just a couple of canon additions for Thyatis:

* Village of Acestes (from Joshuan's Almanac)
At Klarmont 15 entry (left column), the text says: "Triumphant, a young stallion owned by Priam Iphisius of Acestes Village, wins the Kerendan Derby by 10 lenghts (at 30 to 1 odds). Priam refuses an offer of 100,000 gp for the horse."

Apart from the fact that Priam is clearly a fool, from the text we gather that a village Acestes is probably located in the Duchy of Kerendas (the boy seems to be quite in touch with his horse, so I assume he's of Kerendan ancestry). Myself, I'd put the village in the plains north of Bridleton.

BTW, did you realize that mainland Thyatis entirely lacks known villages? :shock:

Source: "Joshuan's Almanac & Book of Facts" by Ann Dupuis and Elizabeth Tornabene (TSR 2517, 1995), page 222.

* Shillabeer Gap & Tresayle River (from IM3)
This one comes from the highly-controversial IM3 adventure. Those of you which have read or run the adventure will remeber that within it a battle between Thyatians and a troll army is featured; well, that battlesite is located in Thyatis. I cite:

"The conflict is set in northwestern Thyatis, in the foothills of the Altan Tepes, 50 miles north-west of Biazzan (hex 4722 of X10 map). A troop of Thyatian reserves, reinforced by the Biazzan militia, and led by a group of Thyatian heroes and their companions, have taken up a defensive position in a narrow mountain gorge at Shillabeer Gap. They propose to hold this position against an army of trolls proceeding down the Tresayle River valley from the northwest toward the city of Biazzin [misspelling of Biazzan there]." [From page 35, "Approaching the Battle" paragraph.]

On page 30 there's also a map of the battlesite, where the name of the ford (Garrette Ford) is also indicated. I think that the map should be rotared a little counter-clockwise to match the direction of the river's flow with that of DotE map.

From those infos, we gather that the uppermost part of River Kerenda is also called Tresayle (perhaps it's the river's elven name?), and that the valley which it passes throught is called Shillabeer Gap. Unfortunately from X10 map we see that Tresayle River is undoubtely the same which later DotE will call River Kerenda, so I guess there's no other solution than to go with a double-named river. Indeed, it could be interesting to see that this river had another (elven?) name before the Thyatians' arrival.

Nevertheless, I doubt there is room enough to indicate Shillabeer Gap in 8-m per hex map (certainly there's not for Garrette Ford).

Source: Immortal Game Adventure "The Best of Intentions" by Ken Rolston (TSR 9207, 1987), pages 30 and 35.


LASTLY, a personal petition: Why don't we assign a name to the two "Imperial Territories" areas of mainland Thyatis? I think that they should be considered a sort of "minor" provinces (they're not ruled by feudal aristocrats), they should include some settlements (after all the Thyatians have been there since 1600 years ago!), and therefore they should also have a name. In my campaign, I used Altenia for the western one, and Tarsia for the central one.

Ah, just a final note: I'm not so sure it'd be good to use "Central Thyatis" as a label for the central part of the mainland. After all, you'll not find, say, "Central Spain" or "Central Germany" on geographic and political maps.
Some of the titles used in "Player's Guide to Thyatis" (in DotE) IMO shouldn't be used: i.e. I suppose you won't put the "Surrounding Islands" label on the lower part of the map, will you? :D
Thus, IMO "Surrounding Islands" and "Central Thyatis" aren't of any use; "Peninsula of Tel Akbir", "Kerendan Plains", and "Island of Hattias" can be used istead, and perhaps also "Northlands" could.

My two cents, anyway. ;)
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Hugin » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:23 pm

Zendrolion wrote:...

My two cents, anyway. ;)

Your two cents are always like two brilliantly shining gold pieces to me!
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Zendrolion » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:31 pm

Hugin wrote:Your two cents are always like two brilliantly shining gold pieces to me!


I'm flattered... :oops:
Anyway, two cents they are if confronted to Thorf's work! 8-)
"The prince should study historical accounts of the actions of great men, to see how they conducted themselves in war; he should study the
causes of their victories and defeats, so as to avoid the defeats and imitate the victories" N. Machiavelli, The Prince, XIV, 5
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Cthulhudrew » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:02 am

Cross-posted to appropriate threads in case of future map updates:

There is some additional errata I just noticed the other night in Dawn of the Emperors Book One: DM's Sourcebook, p. 22.

The errata notes that some changes should be made to this map, notably:

1) Terentias should be added to the Vorloi-Kerendas trade route, with some ships going south from Rugalov to Terentias and then up to Kerendas.
2) There should also be a Gapton-Terentias-Kerendas stop.
3) There is a trade route option between Tel Akbir and West Portage. I'm guessing it would veer diagonally north from where the current route veers south (towards the southern portion of the IoD).
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:04 pm

Is six or seven years too late for a reply?

Nah... ;)

Zendrolion wrote:* Village of Acestes (from Joshuan's Almanac)
At Klarmont 15 entry (left column), the text says: "Triumphant, a young stallion owned by Priam Iphisius of Acestes Village, wins the Kerendan Derby by 10 lenghts (at 30 to 1 odds). Priam refuses an offer of 100,000 gp for the horse."


Agreed! I've added it to the map, which will be published this Sunday.

* Shillabeer Gap & Tresayle River (from IM3)

[...]

Nevertheless, I doubt there is room enough to indicate Shillabeer Gap in 8-m per hex map (certainly there's not for Garrette Ford).


I agree, I don't think there is room to mark these. Useful to have for reference if a larger scale map is ever produced, though.

LASTLY, a personal petition: Why don't we assign a name to the two "Imperial Territories" areas of mainland Thyatis? I think that they should be considered a sort of "minor" provinces (they're not ruled by feudal aristocrats), they should include some settlements (after all the Thyatians have been there since 1600 years ago!), and therefore they should also have a name. In my campaign, I used Altenia for the western one, and Tarsia for the central one.


I very much agree with you on these. 1600 years with these unsettled seems utterly implausible, although to be fair it was clearly done in order to facilitate PC dominions. I'm fine with your names. Do you have some settlements to go in there too? Just a town or two would do.

Talking of which, as you say, there are no villages. It would be easy to add some around the map, if I had some names to go with them.

Ah, just a final note: I'm not so sure it'd be good to use "Central Thyatis" as a label for the central part of the mainland. After all, you'll not find, say, "Central Spain" or "Central Germany" on geographic and political maps.
Some of the titles used in "Player's Guide to Thyatis" (in DotE) IMO shouldn't be used: i.e. I suppose you won't put the "Surrounding Islands" label on the lower part of the map, will you? :D
Thus, IMO "Surrounding Islands" and "Central Thyatis" aren't of any use; "Peninsula of Tel Akbir", "Kerendan Plains", and "Island of Hattias" can be used istead, and perhaps also "Northlands" could.


Obviously I agree about "Surrounding Islands". I will look again at the Central Thyatis references. We already have the political label "Duchy of Thyatis" for this area. I added Central Thyatis because I was wondering what they would refer to the region as.

The thing about all these labels is that they do duplicate the political labels. The island names are all like this — Terentias, Sclaras, etc. as well as Hattias. I like Kerendan Plains because it feels like it's adding something.

Cthulhudrew wrote:Cross-posted to appropriate threads in case of future map updates:

There is some additional errata I just noticed the other night in Dawn of the Emperors Book One: DM's Sourcebook, p. 22.

The errata notes that some changes should be made to this map, notably:

1) Terentias should be added to the Vorloi-Kerendas trade route, with some ships going south from Rugalov to Terentias and then up to Kerendas.
Zendrolion wrote:I've just a couple of canon additions for Thyatis:
2) There should also be a Gapton-Terentias-Kerendas stop.
3) There is a trade route option between Tel Akbir and West Portage. I'm guessing it would veer diagonally north from where the current route veers south (towards the southern portion of the IoD).


Great find, Andrew! I have adjusted the trade routes accordingly.

Regarding number 3, the route is actually already there on TM2. It dips quite significantly to the south before going north to West Portage.

Thank you both for these ideas, and sorry I have taken so many years to act on them. :oops: Better late than never?
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Sturm » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:24 pm

In Threshold issue 11 I am planning to develop a bit the Imperial territories, having them as regions mostly inhabited by ogres (mentioned in DotE, IIRC) and giants. That would be the reason why they do not have human inhabitants...
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:37 pm

The new map is up! Check the first post for a link. I'd love to hear what you think.

Sturm, I'll be interested to see what you come up with. The problem for me is that 1600 years is many times longer than it would take for the might of the Thyatian Empire to deal with things in their back yard.
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Havard » Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:17 pm

Very nice Thorf!

Do you agree that this map suffers a bit of the same problem as the Alphatia maps from the Dawn of the Emperors also did? That there is a lack of detail to them? I think this is particularly true for the surrounding islands as I called them in my Overseas Territories thread. Only one settlement per islands seems very low and although there are seven settlements on Hattias, that doesn't seem like alot either. Perhaps there is more in Threshold #11, I will have to check that, but those are my immediate thoughts.

As always, thanks for making these! :)

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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Thorf » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:19 am

Yes, I agree completely, Håvard. In fact, one of the notes on the map comments on the lack of villages, and this is something that most of the other Gazetteer maps shared — at least in their initial versions. Bruce commented on precisely this thing yesterday on Facebook.

Thyatis especially should be quite dense, I think, so I think it could have a ton of villages added — enough to make the point without overcrowding the map. (Remember that there could be lots more that just aren't shown at this scale.)

GAZ2, GAZ5, GAZ6, GAZ7 and GAZ9 all had no villages on their map. Of these, GAZ9 had some added on TM1 & TM2, likely because the original map was so so frugal it just looks unfinished. GAZ7 doesn't really have a lot of space for villages, and this problem gets a lot worse when you add the dominion names in as on my updated map. The others don't really have any reason not to have villages, and should probably have at least a few added to them.
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Sturm » Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:35 am

My idea is more that such "Imperial territories" were used from the start of the empire to push there humanoids and other intelligent creatures that the thyatians could not entirely defeat and did not want to include in the Empire.
I suppose now some giants and ogres could be employed by the Empire as mercenaries, gladiators or/and elite troops.
They employ dwarves and elves for sure, and also dragons and other flying creatures in the Retebius Air Fleet.
I like to keep the two great areas of wilderness inside the thyatian mainland.
I also wish to give more space to giants in the KW, and I think the Altan teepe mountains are a very good place for it.
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Zendrolion » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:42 pm

Hi all,

great work Thorf, as usual. I'm pleased to see the Acestes village on the map! :cool:

Time ago, I also found a short reference to an additional Thyatian village on the mainland. IIRC it was called Piceno and was located in the Kantrium region. The reference should come from the events of PWA3 or JA, and they were tied to the slave revolts of early 1012 AC... IIRC there was also an heucuva (undead) involved somehow in the events...

Regarding the "Imperial Territories", I'd like to throw in my two cents. First thing to do would be giving each of these region its own name. In my campaign I used "Altenia" for the western ones (from Altan Tepes), and "Tarsia" for the eastern ones (from Mount Tarsus). Every name is good, but they should have a name, definitely.

Having a humanoid presence in these territories would be interesting (both in terms of goblinoid and giant population) as Sturm was saying, but I'd avoid making these lands totally wilderness. I see these non-humans as more or less integrated in a sort of Thyatian frontier area, where they live more or less peacefully alongside humans, apart from the occasional bandit raid, and they might even supply the empire with mercenary troops from time to time. This area is very rich in metal deposits (gold), so it's unlikely that the Thyatians have stayed out of it. Main non-human presence in the area would be that of giants and ogres, but maybe also orcs (remember Yalag from DDA1-2) and kobolds (see the background of Kol XIV from GAZ10). A look at GAZ2 might also be useful to know which humanoid races lived there before the Thyatians came: besides giants and ogres, we have orcs, goblin, bugbears, and hobgoblins; it's likely that the Thyatians pushed these tribes beyond the Altan Tepes into the Ylari uplands when the empire took possession of the mountain range, so the area south of it should be quite devoid of riotous, free or utterly hostile humanoids. It could be imagined like the frontier area of the thirteen North American colonies in the 18th century, where native peoples lived alongside (and not always peacefully) colonists from Europe.

Moreover, we should remember that the Altan Tepes are one of the main areas whence the RAF dragons come; this might make for some interesting twist in developing this area.

Lastly, this whole area is a border with the hostile Ylari emirate, so - giving the relative low height of these mountains and the presence of usable passes - the chain should be quite well guarded by Thyatian patrols and forts. Not like Fort Nikos, maybe (which guards the only pass large enough for an invading army), but towers and keeps might be found in this area.
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Sturm » Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:25 pm

Good ideas. It's not very different from how I see them anyway.
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Gecko » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:23 pm

I thought the eastern Imperial territory was known as "the Vale" (or the "Mesonian Vale")?
I do like the name "Altenia" for the western one.
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Sturm » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:46 am

I think the western one should be Tarsia, as Mt Tarsus is in the west according to Thorf's map.
I indeed called Tarsh the giant kingdom ruling the area, in Threshold issue 2.
The eastern area, that could also be called Mesonia or Trevonia (but Altenia too would be fine) could be the area of ogres, kobolds and other humanoids..
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby religon » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:20 pm

@Sturm,

One small thing I have done to address my shared interest in carving more space out for giants has been to move Castellan Keep down river in Karameikos. I place it at the confluence of the Castellan and Highreach River. (Near the town Seragrad from the Dungeon adventure Wreck of the Crimpshire.) I can think of 3 or 4 reasons that the Keep does not make sense where placed in canon. Moving the keep allows for a roughly 150 mile diameter mountainous region without human might to place a giant kingdom.
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Sturm » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:26 pm

Indeed that's a good idea too.
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Zendrolion » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:44 pm

Sturm wrote:I think the western one should be Tarsia, as Mt Tarsus is in the west according to Thorf's map.
I indeed called Tarsh the giant kingdom ruling the area, in Threshold issue 2.
The eastern area, that could also be called Mesonia or Trevonia (but Altenia too would be fine) could be the area of ogres, kobolds and other humanoids..


Yes, you're right of course, I inverted the two names: Tarsia was IMC the western Imperial Territories, Altenia the eastern ones. :facepalm: ;)

Another thing to adjust would be the height of Mount Legio, in the western Imperial Territories, which is given as 935 feet in TM2. Since at that height there would be no mountain to speak of - 935 feet is an height adequate for a hill range - I suppose the height of Mount Legio should be changed to 9,350 feet, also considering the average height of the Altan Tepes mountain in this area (Mt. Tarsus is over 11,000 feet high).
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Kilr Kowalski » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:59 pm

Religion wrote:
One small thing I have done to address my shared interest in carving more space out for giants has been to move Castellan Keep down river in Karameikos. I place it at the confluence of the Castellan and Highreach River. (Near the town Seragrad from the Dungeon adventure Wreck of the Crimpshire.) I can think of 3 or 4 reasons that the Keep does not make sense where placed in canon. Moving the keep allows for a roughly 150 mile diameter mountainous region without human might to place a giant kingdom.


Although a Castellan Keep placed near Seragrad would be well placed to protect the river valleys in the same way as Riverfork Keep in the Cruth lowlands, I can see benefits politically and militaristically for the nation of Karameikos having Castellan keep at its current location.

Could or would a Giant kingdom have noted the threat of the building of CK at its traditional (Gaz 1) location? I like the approach of Simone Neri- that essentially the keep got built but after some "in-roads" were made into combating the humanoids and giants, the territory gained was lost again except the very local region around the keep.

From MGAZ 1
In the years AC 980-990, Grand Duke Stefan Karameikos invested large sums of money to open the passes which crossed through the Altan Tepes valleys leading to Ylaruam, issuing the building of Castellan Keep (AC 982), driving away the humanoid tribes, and supporting the founding of outposts by pioneers and settlers. This attempt turned out to be a failure because of the great distance between this region and larger Karameikan settlements, and because of the sheer number of humanoid tribes and giant clans, which outnumbered the grand ducal forces. Within a few years, all advanced positions conquered by Karameikos in this area were abandoned or destroyed, and the border withdrew back to area around Castellan Keep. Today, all that remains of this attempt are some barely visible ruins along a loose trail winding toward Lake Ludaš, almost completely disappeared under the green.


The remoteness of the keep is central to my campaign- in fact the players seem to be enjoying the very slow progress in getting there at the moment(my team-buliding exercise). Once the party gets there, I intend to make them fall in love with the community there, to feel tied in to the struggle and to own the protection and later the development of the CK region.

I think a more southerly Keep may also be seen as a threat to Thyatis, nominally an ally of Karameikos in 1000AC.
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Re: Outer World: Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Zendrolion » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:00 pm

Oh, regarding Piceno I found the village's source, here it is:

* Village of Piceno (from Poor Wizard's Almanac III)
Nuwmont 20 entry, event "Slaves Unleash Terror", is set in a farmhouse "near the village of Piceno", located in "Central Thyatis".

The village is not located in the Kantrium area, as I previously thought, but in the region called "Central Thyatis" (domains of Thyatis, Lucinius, and Retebius). Since the village is tied to the Ac 1012 events regarding the slave uprising in Thyatis City, I suppose Piceno's best location would be somewhere in the vicinities of the capital.

Source: "Poor Wizard's Almanac & Book of Facts III, AC 1012" by Ann Dupuis (TSR 2506, 1994), page 157.
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Re: [Outer World] Thyatis, 8 miles per hex

Postby Sturm » Wed May 18, 2016 10:50 am

BTW Giulio C is writing a great article for the incoming Threshold issue 12 detailing Thyatis in 250 BC. As he placed Etruscan-like people west of the Mesonian river and Italian-like people east of the Mesonian, Piceno IMO would fit better in the north of Central Thyatis, where the road to Retebius bends to the east...
That would be 40 miles from Thyatis city, but I think escaped slaves could cover such a distance easily in five days (Nuwmont 15th, rebellion suppressed, Nuwmont 20th, they encounter Heucuvas near Piceno).
Obviously it's always possibly that 250 BC Piceno was destroyed and then rebuilt in another location, but as we can freely decide its location it could be nice to fit it with Giulio's article...
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