Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

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Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:23 pm

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Combined Replica of Geoff Gander's 1996-1998 maps, 72 miles per hex by Thorf, March 2009
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Updated map of Geoff Gander's Davania, 72 miles per hex by Thorf, March 2009
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Davania is huge, and is going to require some major effort to map properly due to the curvature issues involved. In the meantime, here is Geoff Gander's beautiful 72 mile per hex map for your enjoyment.

Geoff based his map on the Hollow World Set Outer World map, which is a bit of a strange projection, and it doesn't reflect the curvature of the planet very accurately as a result. But what it lacks in spatial accuracy it more than makes up for in detail and development of the region; Geoff took a border with a few mountain ranges, rivers and deserts marked, and filled it in with a whole continent of carefully considered terrain in all its glory.

Sources: (1996) by Geoff Gander, Hollow World Campaign Set (1990).

Notes on XXX
To Do List
  1. Compile list of sources and references (again). :|
References
  1. at the Vaults of Pandius
Thanks to: Geoff Gander (Seer of Yhog)
Last edited by Thorf on Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added PDF version of updated map.

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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Andaire » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:36 pm

So, Davania it is, then.
That'll be a lot of work - but then, Hule would have been, too; only Heldann would have been easier.
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:12 pm

Andaire wrote:So, Davania it is, then.
That'll be a lot of work <snip>
Don't you mean that must have been a lot of work? It's already done, after all. :D

I will make an updated version of this map too, but it will need some development to complete. For example, not all of the numbered labels actually had captions to associate them with. If Geoff develops them at some point, I will definitely add them in then.

Regarding the other two maps... At this point, no comment. :mrgreen:

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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by CmdrCorsiken » Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:34 pm

I'm guessing at some point the hex symbols will be updated with the now 'standard' ones. I can't guess how difficult that will be, however....

Regardless, this is very nice!

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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:33 pm

CmdrCorsiken wrote:I'm guessing at some point the hex symbols will be updated with the now 'standard' ones. I can't guess how difficult that will be, however....
Yep, that will be the Updated map. I'll hopefully get it posted within the next few days.

It's actually remarkably easy to replace the symbols. All it requires is holding down ALT and dragging each symbol from one palette to another. The time-consuming part is drawing the map in the first place, especially the coasts, rivers, roads, trails, borders, and plateaus. Oh and the captions take a while too.

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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Andaire » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:44 pm

Thorf wrote:
Andaire wrote:So, Davania it is, then.
That'll be a lot of work <snip>
Don't you mean that must have been a lot of work? It's already done, after all. :D

I will make an updated version of this map too, but it will need some development to complete. For example, not all of the numbered labels actually had captions to associate them with. If Geoff develops them at some point, I will definitely add them in then.

Regarding the other two maps... At this point, no comment. :mrgreen:
I meant for the updated map, yes. Although maybe it is the replica that actually is the hardest part :?
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Cthulhudrew » Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:23 pm

Thorf-

Though I'm sure Geoff has probably corresponded with you already, there's also this thread on the Wizards Boards that lays out a lot of the info on the numbered regions (though, as Geoff points out, there's a few he didn't develop).
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by CmdrCorsiken » Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:16 pm

Cthulhudrew wrote:Thorf-
Though I'm sure Geoff has probably corresponded with you already, there's also this thread on the Wizards Boards that lays out a lot of the info on the numbered regions (though, as Geoff points out, there's a few he didn't develop).
It doesn't appear that the numbered descriptions in that thread match up with the numbers on the map. Perhaps there's been an update somewhere that does match them?
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Andaire » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:05 pm

On the updated map, those numbered spots should be named, imo.
BTW Thorf, where will you cut the map? I suppose you won't include the bottom of Yavdlom, for example.
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by multizar » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Thorf, This map is awesome!!!

I have been looking at this map for over 10 years. My first world map of Mystara was a printed version of Geoff's Davania with blank hex paper attached. I used map colors for Brun and Skothar (at least the parts from the Poor Wizard's Almanac, I had the maps :mrgreen: )

I know this one was not my first choice, but it is a great addition to the "Thorf maps of Mystara"
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by metal » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:58 am

Great looking map Thorf and Geoff....I'm looking forward to more!!!!
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by multizar » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:34 am

Andaire wrote:On the updated map, those numbered spots should be named, imo.

I agree. These areas should be labeled with your newly purchased font, Thorf. I can not wait to see the updated map! :D
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by metal » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:56 am

Does this mean adjustments to the wall of the garage, multizar? ;)
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:33 am

Update: I've uploaded a preliminary version of the updated map. Note that this is an updated version of Geoff's take on Davania; my own take on it will come at a later date.
Andaire wrote:I meant for the updated map, yes. Although maybe it is the replica that actually is the hardest part :?
Well, as long as there isn't a huge amount of data to add to the updated map, it's just a matter of tweaking a few things. In this case I have put all the labels into Feinen Bold and Italic, added a couple of labels I found on the Hollow World set map (two river names, Vulcanian Peninsula), did some work on the Vulture Peninsula's plateau to make it more standard, and changed all the hexes to my own versions.
Cthulhudrew wrote:Though I'm sure Geoff has probably corresponded with you already, there's also this thread on the Wizards Boards that lays out a lot of the info on the numbered regions (though, as Geoff points out, there's a few he didn't develop).
Thanks for the link. If my full post for this thread hadn't been lost, you would have seen that I have already mined all of those sources (pretty much everything I could find on Geoff's author page at the Vaults, in fact) for settlement names. Unfortunately a lot of them don't have concrete names yet, or simply have yet to be developed. If I include generic names such as "Gnomish Settlement" we can probably fill in quite a few of the remaining numbers, but not all of them.
CmdrCorsiken wrote:It doesn't appear that the numbered descriptions in that thread match up with the numbers on the map. Perhaps there's been an update somewhere that does match them?
This is because the map is actually made up of multiple maps, all of which had their own numbering scheme. I have tried to retain meaningful numbers for each area, so that they still line up with Geoff's location descriptions, but I may have messed up in a few places. (If so, please let me know so I can fix them.)
Andaire wrote:On the updated map, those numbered spots should be named, imo.
BTW Thorf, where will you cut the map? I suppose you won't include the bottom of Yavdlom, for example.
The southern parts of Yavdlom and Ochalea, as well as some of the Pearl Islands can't help but be included, because northern Davania goes pretty far north. Even when I make my own version of this map with projection/curvature problems taken into account, it seems likely that it will still include these areas. Anyway, they make it a little easier to relate to, don't you think? They give an idea of the scale involved, as well as Davania's overall position in the world.

If the current map were to be made a solid rectangle, it would also need part of Skothar added to the top right corner.

Now, regarding further updates to the map: I will be happy to add further developments to this map as they become available. If you find something at the Vaults that I have missed, please post it (and a link to it so I can add it to the sources or references) here and I will add it on the next pass. The major thing that I know exists but I have yet to incorporate is country names, so I will definitely be adding them at the next opportunity.

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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Andaire » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:49 am

Thorf wrote:The southern parts of Yavdlom and Ochalea, as well as some of the Pearl Islands can't help but be included, because northern Davania goes pretty far north. Even when I make my own version of this map with projection/curvature problems taken into account, it seems likely that it will still include these areas. Anyway, they make it a little easier to relate to, don't you think? They give an idea of the scale involved, as well as Davania's overall position in the world.
If the current map were to be made a solid rectangle, it would also need part of Skothar added to the top right corner.
Of course, but you usually only have the region in question in your updated maps, until you have the other ones ready so that you can make them rectangular. Won't you have to double-update this map and Ochalea, Yavdlom, etc., if you keep them in at the time?
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Andaire » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:53 am

I think Garganin is a port town; maybe it would be better to put its name in the water rather than inland to better reflect this.
Elvish ruins should be elven ruins (also true in the original map).
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Zendrolion » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:49 am

Wow, what a wonderful work, Thorf! 8-)
It remembers me the old days, when - used to a black-and-white Known World - I first saw the GAZ-style color poster-map of GAZ1 - same feeling! :)

About additional (unofficial) sources about Davania, there's also DM's (Marco Dalmonte's) brief descriptions of various regions in the "Pantheons" chapter, within Volume 2 of his huge Codex Immortalis. Becouse most of Mystara's regions were lacking a canon description, Marco had to provide them of one he created himself to detail regional pantheons.

You can find this part, divided by regions (there's a whole chapter about Davania) in the translation by Gary Davies, at the Vaults.

While I definitely realize that most of Marco's descriptions don't match Geoff's treatment of the same areas, I'm posting this link there becouse while most people may think that Marco's Codex "only" describes Immortal and religions, it includes also useful ideas to detail some regions. ;)
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by OldDawg » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:09 pm

Thorf,

how did you decide to reconcile the slight mis-alignment (I'm thinking it was the NE map that had a 1 to 2 hex bump relative to the others)?

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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Havard » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:35 pm

This map has given me a new appreciation of Geoff's work. I love many of the details added, like the little lakes added to Davania and a couple of new islands(?) I just found a new place to located Jakandor...

As mentioned elsewhere, great work! :)

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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Eric Anondson » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:46 pm

I never expected the result so . . . immediate! Was this already in progress during the poll, or did you just whip it up that fast?

Impressive beginning, and I cannot wait for your interpretation on Davania, Thorf. :D
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Andaire » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:10 pm

Yeah, since you do such massive maps overnight, where is the mapping of the whole world we've all been waiting for? :)
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:32 am

Andaire wrote:Of course, but you usually only have the region in question in your updated maps, until you have the other ones ready so that you can make them rectangular. Won't you have to double-update this map and Ochalea, Yavdlom, etc., if you keep them in at the time?
In this case it's Geoff's Davania I'm updating, not my own take on it. So the rules are all different.

Perhaps I should try to make this distinction a bit clearer. The basic idea is that I make a replica map and then update it, but whether the map is official or not is also important. The official ones are effectively universal, and with my updated versions they are also all compatible with each other. The unofficial maps are copies of other people's work, and as such compatibility varies.

That was the purpose of introducing my new "Unofficial" button, to indicate maps made with fan-made sources as well as/instead of official material. I'm going to introduce an "Atlas" button to show which maps are destined for the Atlas, but I've been holding off so I can also use it as a sign that the map is complete (or nearly complete).

Incidentally this all relates to our discussion about different versions of officialness in Mystara. In effect what I'm saying is that Geoff's map is Geoff-Mystara, and is therefore likely compatible with other Geoff-Mystara stuff. It is probably compatible with TSR-Mystara too, although perhaps not 100% compatible. And its compatibility with other Mystara versions (Cthulhudrew-Mystara, Atlas-Mystara, Almanac-Mystara, etc.) may be significantly less, depending on that continuity.

So to answer your original question: you're right that in my own maps I try to keep things separate until everything is nearing completion, in order to reduce my workload (and maintain my sanity!), but since this is Geoff's vision there is no such need. If I ever do make adjustments to bring it into line with the Atlas standard updated maps, it will likely only be once those maps are finished - and probably only if someone asks me to do so, too.
Andaire wrote:I think Garganin is a port town; maybe it would be better to put its name in the water rather than inland to better reflect this.
Elvish ruins should be elven ruins (also true in the original map).
Fair enough. Right now the captions are precisely where Geoff placed the numbers, but they are definitely open for change on the updated map.

Regarding the labels, I used all the sources at the Vaults, so the phrasing is Geoff's. In this case the Locations from the Aryptian Region page lists:

1. Realm of the N'djatwa
2. Vanya's Rest
3. Strange Varellyan ruins
4. Gnomish settlement
5. Gnomish or remote elvish settlement
6. Elvish ruin from Grunland

We can probably make better captions for most of these. And obviously we would need to make a decision about what is there (in the case of number 5, for example) before using these labels.
Zendrolion wrote:Wow, what a wonderful work, Thorf! 8-)
It remembers me the old days, when - used to a black-and-white Known World - I first saw the GAZ-style color poster-map of GAZ1 - same feeling! :)
Great! :D It's wonderful to hear that I've inspired such a feeling of nostalgia, because that is one of the reasons I've worked so hard to improve my mapping system.
About additional (unofficial) sources about Davania, there's also DM's (Marco Dalmonte's) brief descriptions of various regions in the "Pantheons" chapter, within Volume 2 of his huge Codex Immortalis. Becouse most of Mystara's regions were lacking a canon description, Marco had to provide them of one he created himself to detail regional pantheons.
Excellent - thanks. I've been meaning to go and read the translations of Marco's project for a while, although I would be happier if I could read the whole book. ;) Reading just some parts feels like shaking a Christmas present to find out what's inside! :lol:
OldDawg wrote:how did you decide to reconcile the slight mis-alignment (I'm thinking it was the NE map that had a 1 to 2 hex bump relative to the others)?
That's a good question. I think that I went with the way that lined up the best, and ignored the extra bit that was produced as a result. There was also one place where a river repeated itself.

Unfortunately I assembled the guide quite a while ago - as many as two or three years - so I don't remember precisely how I dealt with it. If you compare it with the individual maps you can probably work it out, though. At this point I'm not sure if I will pull the map apart and make replicas of each individual map (I'm not sure there's much point), but if I did I'm sure I'd be able to work out how I dealt with the problem.
Havard wrote:This map has given me a new appreciation of Geoff's work. I love many of the details added, like the little lakes added to Davania and a couple of new islands(?) I just found a new place to located Jakandor...

As mentioned elsewhere, great work! :)
I agree. I had no idea Geoff had developed quite so much to put in Davania. The scale of the place is quite insane, and without these little things it would really feel even more empty.
Eric Anondson wrote:I never expected the result so . . . immediate! Was this already in progress during the poll, or did you just whip it up that fast?

Impressive beginning, and I cannot wait for your interpretation on Davania, Thorf. :D
:D

As I've said, I had already assembled Geoff's maps under my own hex grid in preparation for mapping it quite a while ago. But in fact I did begin to work on the map before the poll finished, when it became clear that Davania was a popular choice. That's why I voted for it - because in fact I had already started it. ;)
Andaire wrote:Yeah, since you do such massive maps overnight, where is the mapping of the whole world we've all been waiting for? :)
Hehehe. I wish it were that easy. What you don't see is the hours upon hours I spent on the map. I've never actually timed it, but I would estimate that a poster-sized map takes me at least 5 or 6 hours to do - much more if it has a lot of details. I don't think 10 hours on average would be an overstatement. Davania didn't have all that many borders, no trails or roads, not that many rivers, and not that many settlements and labels. The coastline probably took the longest (a few nights), and filling in the terrain always takes longer than I think it will.

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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:51 am

Thorf wrote:If my full post for this thread hadn't been lost, you would have seen that I have already mined all of those sources (pretty much everything I could find on Geoff's author page at the Vaults, in fact) for settlement names. Unfortunately a lot of them don't have concrete names yet, or simply have yet to be developed. If I include generic names such as "Gnomish Settlement" we can probably fill in quite a few of the remaining numbers, but not all of them.
First - WOW!!!!! That's two impossible things before lunch, Thorf. When are you going to Milliways? :geek:

I can help you name a lot of the locations, though I see you've already got a lot of it there (Arnath et al).

Off the top of my head, the largish realm located north of the Izondian Wall (locations 2 & 3) was intended to be Jeff Daly's realm of Kwythellar (not a nice place). The Sergian dwarf hold was in the mountains, but not drawn in.

The area around Final Bay was developed as the land of Mis (the last haven of the minotaurs) by Francesco Defferari, and we always figured that the Hwungo Forest region, and the lands east, could be Steven B. Wilson's Arica.

In the Pelatan region, the bordered state should actually be divided into two - 1 & 2 are major settlements in the nation of Nivall (founded by people descended from the Varellyans, as per the migration map in the HW boxed set). The remaining two hexes were intended to be a trading outpost of Gombar or Suma'a - never got around to picking which it would be, though.

I`ll post more thoughts when I can.
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Eric Anondson » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:14 am

Thorf wrote:
Eric Anondson wrote:I never expected the result so . . . immediate! Was this already in progress during the poll, or did you just whip it up that fast?
:D

As I've said, I had already assembled Geoff's maps under my own hex grid in preparation for mapping it quite a while ago. But in fact I did begin to work on the map before the poll finished, when it became clear that Davania was a popular choice. That's why I voted for it - because in fact I had already started it. ;)
That's just awesome. :) One down, two to go!

Still, this makes it clear, though, that the other two maps aren't going to be so swiftly developed, right? In other words, this is no precedent to set expectations by for the next maps.
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Re: Outer World: Davania, 72 miles per hex

Post by Thorf » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:23 am

Eric Anondson wrote:That's just awesome. :) One down, two to go!

Still, this makes it clear, though, that the other two maps aren't going to be so swiftly developed, right? In other words, this is no precedent to set expectations by for the next maps.
Pretty much. Heldann shouldn't take too long, but Hule has so much detail it will take a loooooooooong time to finish. That's why I felt that Davania was more doable than Hule - less detail means faster mapping.

Also I did say that I was going to do an unofficial map after each official map, so you can pretty easily guess that the next map is going to be an official one. :D

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