Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

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Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Thorf » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:21 am

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Replica of poster map from PC4, 1 mile per hex by Thorf, July 2008
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Updated map of The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex by Thorf, June 2008
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One of the only 1 mile per hex official maps produced for Mystara, this map makes for an interesting study of how the official cartographers adapted maps between scales.

Sources: PC4 Night Howlers (1992).

Notes on Updated map (PC4)
  • Hex art error - the hex above the Chateau de Morlay is coloured as a mountain hex, but the symbol is that of a volcanic formation hex. It seems likely that this was supposed to be an extension of the volcanic outcrop on which the chateau is built, and therefore a volcanic formation hex rather than a mountain hex.
To Do List
  1. Make an original colours variant of the replica PC4 map.
  2. Fix the capitalisation on the updated map.
  3. Make a replica of the Western Glantri 8 mile per hex map from PC4. (Probably near-identical to other Glantri 8 mile per hex maps.)
  4. Make an overlay image showing the 8 and 1 mile per hex maps together for comparison.
  5. Add some details to the plain in the top left. (And ideas? The text describes it as a rather bleak, empty plain...)
References
Thanks to: Ashtagon, Roger Girtman (Gawain_VIII), Joe Mason (JoeNotCharles), Michele (LoZompatore), Hervé Musseau (Andaire), Simone Neri (Zendrolion), JTR (OldDawg), Andrew Theisen (Cthulhudrew)
Last edited by Ashtagon on Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Added acknowledgements.

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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Cthulhudrew » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:41 am

Thorf wrote:[*]Add some details to the plain in the top left. (And ideas? The text describes it as a rather bleak, empty plain...)[/list]
At least some of it should be the Adri Varma plateau, if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps a small village or something along the caravan route?
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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Thorf » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:54 am

Cthulhudrew wrote:
Thorf wrote:[*]Add some details to the plain in the top left. (And ideas? The text describes it as a rather bleak, empty plain...)[/list]
At least some of it should be the Adri Varma plateau, if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps a small village or something along the caravan route?
The edge of the barren area at the foot of the plateau might just creep onto the corner of the map, but I haven't had time to check properly yet. Remember that this map is zoomed in a great deal from the maps we're most familiar with, and the plateau is at least 2 or 3 8 mile hexes away from the border. That means it's 16-24 hexes away on this map.

In any case, when I make the overlay map we'll be able to see this and various other interesting points about the development of this area. It would be interesting to expand this map a little in a few directions, but the sheer amount of time it takes to do maps of this scale (especially over a large area) means it's unlikely I'll do too many.

The caravan route is interesting. TM1 showed it as a trail, but this map has it as a road. Perhaps this section - the part closest to the entrance to Glantri - is paved for some distance.

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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Cthulhudrew » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:24 am

Thorf wrote:The edge of the barren area at the foot of the plateau might just creep onto the corner of the map, but I haven't had time to check properly yet. Remember that this map is zoomed in a great deal from the maps we're most familiar with, and the plateau is at least 2 or 3 8 mile hexes away from the border. That means it's 16-24 hexes away on this map.
Yeah, I was mainly mentioning it because I know I started on a 1 mile/hex map replica of the Mor/Mal region ages ago, and seem to recall discovering that the plateau fit in there somewhere. I'll have to recheck those old 1 mile maps (I had several in various stages of completion at one point).
The caravan route is interesting. TM1 showed it as a trail, but this map has it as a road. Perhaps this section - the part closest to the entrance to Glantri - is paved for some distance.
More indication that there should be some kind of settlement (a village/town or fort or something) then, I'd say. Probably less likely a fort (due to the nearness of the Fortress of Ylourgne); possibly a walled village?

EDIT- Just checked my mile maps- looks like the squared area falls just slightly short of the plateau after all; about 1 8 mile hex short.
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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Zendrolion » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:42 pm

I think the fact that the narrow strip of plains separating the Adri Varma's slopes from Glantrian borders doesn't belong to the Principalities make really NO SENSE. These could be a recently-settled area, like Sablestone, with good pastures (the region could receive a sufficent amount of precipitations, if the clouds that enter Glantri from the south stay trapped in by the Adi Varma's slopes.
Moreover, and most important, this is a central area for trade with Wendar, Sind and Adri Varma's settlements (if any, possibly those indicated inthe old 1981 B3). This could justify the fact that a tract of the trails that pass through these plains are paved roads (which usually are evidence of a rather strong local government that cares about general trade and benefits from it - Glantri itself).

In fact, a more recent map, like the one from WotI (while otherwise full of mistakes), indicates the plains as a Glantrian dominion. I think it would make more sense this way, with Fortress Ylourgne (like Sablestone one) built to protect the area from banditry and rebellions in these far-away reaches of the Principalities.
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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Cthulhudrew » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:18 pm

I tend to agree that Glantri- at the very least- would consider the land under their own control. Unless there is some other significant (and powerful) presence in the region, that is (what, I have no idea).

In light of the original B3: Palace of the Silver Princess, which even had a Glantrian barony atop the plateau, I would definitely consider that strip of land in Glantrian control.

Some areas, of course, would be more directly administered and capable of being kept under watch than others (specifically, the region in contention, here, which has the Fortress of Ylourgne and the region further south with the Fortress of Sablestone to patrol them). The more northerly regions, on the far side of the difficult to traverse Wendarian Range and sparse settlements/dominions, would be more problematic and might very well be questioned in terms of national ownership.)
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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by OldDawg » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:51 pm

Zendrolion wrote:I think the fact that the narrow strip of plains separating the Adri Varma's slopes from Glantrian borders doesn't belong to the Principalities make really NO SENSE. These could be a recently-settled area, like Sablestone, with good pastures (the region could receive a sufficent amount of precipitations, if the clouds that enter Glantri from the south stay trapped in by the Adi Varma's slopes.
It makes sense if Glantri does not presently have the population and military might to enforce such as claim. Remember from Gaz3 and PC4, (and the history in WOTI/PWA), Sablestone was one of two "growth" areas (the other being Bramyra). I think the operative read is that as of 1000 AC, Glantri does not control the plains *as of yet*. This should all be part of the current process by which Sablestone earns its Principality.

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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Andaire » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:45 pm

Is there a reason why "le/la/les" are spelled with a lower-case "l"? It seems it is spelled, eg, "les Montagnes Noires"; "Lac" is written with a capital.
I don't remember if was that way in the PC4 map too, but it looks odd especially since the "l" is so small next to the other letters, in that font.
If I compare with other maps, you have eg "The Great Escarpment" on the IoD. To keep it coherent between languages, you should either have "the", or "Le/La/Les".
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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Thorf » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:19 am

Andaire wrote:Is there a reason why "le/la/les" are spelled with a lower-case "l"? It seems it is spelled, eg, "les Montagnes Noires"; "Lac" is written with a capital.
I don't remember if was that way in the PC4 map too, but it looks odd especially since the "l" is so small next to the other letters, in that font.
If I compare with other maps, you have eg "The Great Escarpment" on the IoD. To keep it coherent between languages, you should either have "the", or "Le/La/Les".
Yes, I thought this was odd too. I copied the original map exactly, so all the captions are indeed almost identical to the original. ("Almost" because the font is Baldur, not Feinen, and the positioning of the captions is not pixel-perfect, but it's very close to the original's placement.)

So it would look better if I capitalised all the "Le/La/Les" on the updated map, right? Thanks for the input, I didn't want to change the French without checking with a native speaker first. Please let me know if you find any other mistakes in the French.

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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Ashtagon » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:17 am

I may be misremembering, but istr that articles in French (le, la, les) are never capitalised for titles, only at the start of a sentence.
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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Thorf » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:55 am

Ashtagon wrote:I may be misremembering, but istr that articles in French (le, la, les) are never capitalised for titles, only at the start of a sentence.
Such a rule would explain why they did things like this on the original map. But I found this page which suggests the opposite.

In any case, I generally trust the word of a native speaker above most other sources, so I'll go with whatever Herve (and any other francophones on our board!) says.

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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by JoeNotCharles » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:23 am

Ashtagon wrote:I may be misremembering, but istr that articles in French (le, la, les) are never capitalised for titles, only at the start of a sentence.
True, but when I title stands on its own it counts as a full sentence. On a map with no other text surrounding it, it would be, "Les Montagnes Noires". Inside a paragraph it would be, "Ces montagnes s'appelles les Montagnes Noires." (That's the same pattern as English, come to think of it. Titles of books is a better example - in English you would write, "My high school drama class put on a performance of The Crucible," but in the French style it would be, "...a performance of the Crucible." But you wouldn't say, "the Crucible is a great play," because that's the beginning of a sentence, and in a table of contents you'd list it as "The Crucible" because it comes at the beginning of a line.)

I believe in English you don't capitalize articles at the start of names - "the Netherlands", "the Beatles" - but you do always capitalize them at the start of titles of works - "The Beatles Anthology". So for place names the rules are actually identical.

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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Gawain_VIII » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:40 pm

In (proper) English, an article would only be capitalized if it was actually a part of the noun. For example, "I think that The Beatles were revolutionary, but the Beach Boys had a better sound."

In any case, the first word of a sentence would always be capitalized. In this instance, being a label--you would only place the noun. If the article (the) is not actually part of the noun, it would not be placed as part of the label. As a hypothetical example, if you were placing the capital city convieniently named "Capital City", you would simply label the iconograph as "Capital City" you would not write "The Capital City".

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P.S. On a side note, since the first word of a sentence is always capitalized, if the first word is a number it should always be spelled out so they you could capitalize it. Just a pet peeve of mine! :mrgreen:

BTW, I was an English Education major (haven't finished yet... ran out of money.) But the above grammar rules can be confirmed by any edition of the Holtz Handbook, sixth printing or later.
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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Andaire » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:55 pm

JoeNotCharles wrote:"Ces montagnes s'appelles les Montagnes Noires."
Sorry, the editor/frenchman in me can't resist... "Ces montagnes s'appellent les Montagnes Noires."

Anyway, it looks odd on the map to the eye of this Frenchman, so...
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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Andaire » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:04 pm

if you want to be sure though (you shouldn't trust the one source), the rocky mountains are called les rocheuses in french, so whip out a french canadian map and the answer should be there
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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by JoeNotCharles » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:19 pm

Andaire wrote:
JoeNotCharles wrote:"Ces montagnes s'appelles les Montagnes Noires."
Sorry, the editor/frenchman in me can't resist... "Ces montagnes s'appellent les Montagnes Noires."
Dammit! Don't tell my wife I made that mistake!

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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Andaire » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:27 pm

ah well, french is tricky - it actually has a grammar :lol:
Is your wife québécoise, and you're trying to convince her of your mastery of the language? :mrgreen:
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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by LoZompatore » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:12 am

I think the fact that the narrow strip of plains separating the Adri Varma's slopes from Glantrian borders doesn't belong to the Principalities make really NO SENSE. These could be a recently-settled area, like Sablestone, with good pastures (the region could receive a sufficent amount of precipitations, if the clouds that enter Glantri from the south stay trapped in by the Adi Varma's slopes.
I tend to agree that Glantri- at the very least- would consider the land under their own control. Unless there is some other significant (and powerful) presence in the region, that is (what, I have no idea).
Whilst I agree with you about moving the Glantrian border to the platau's foothills, I must note that, from Glantri Kingdom of Magic map, the whole Adri Varma Plateaux is claimed by Hule. Im my opinion this claim is quite recent, but for sure it dates back at least to the Hulean conquest of Sind in 1004-1005AC. Now, if Hulean armies moved north before conquering Sind, maybe the whole plateau was under Hulean control as early as AC1000, so a map set in this period might show a shrinked NW Glantrian border.
Hulean presence in the plateaux in my opinion would also explain pretty well why Glantrian government estabilished two new Principalities in the last few years on the Adri Varma's foothills.

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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Thorf » Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:31 pm

Update: added an original colours version of the replica map.

Sorry I'm so slow in implementing all your excellent suggestions (on this map and others). I promise I will get to them eventually. ;)

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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Thorf » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:36 pm

Update: Changed hills and castle borders on replica maps to new hex art, and added PDFs of both replica maps.

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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Thorf » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:30 pm

I tried to download the PDFs here while I was at work this morning, but they weren't there. :shock: Did I forget to upload them? Has anyone downloaded them before?

Anyway I've uploaded them and they should be available now.

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Re: Outer World: The Valley of Wolves, 1 mile per hex

Post by Hugin » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:14 pm

Just downloaded both of them so everything should be good.

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