Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Chimpman » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:13 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:Most of the prominent ones have already been conquered (like Gathol, which we should put on the map as ruins - I'll show you where, John), but those that remain have managed to overcome many of their differences in the interest of survival. Some city-states are mostly Oltec in look and feel, others might be more classically Thonian, and one or two may have adopted some practices/customs of their neighbours/enemies - these would be shunned by the others, though, and probably considered to be little more than vassals of Mogreth.
Cool. I need to put in the borders for that area. I've been thinking of modifying the Mogreth borders a bit anyway - I want to extend the border all the way along the Rishek into the mountains for one thing. Since we're on the subject of borders, here is another couple of questions for you:

1) Is internal Mogreth divided up into different states (associated with each of the cities)? If so, what are some of the rough boundaries?

2) Are the human controlled lands considered to be a "part of Mogreth" (albeit perhaps a very wild and untamed part)? Or are they recognized as a separate nation? In other words should they be contained by their own set of thick borders, or should we extend the borders of Mogreth to cover them, and then separate that territory with thin borders?
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:18 am

Chimpman wrote:Cool. I need to put in the borders for that area. I've been thinking of modifying the Mogreth borders a bit anyway - I want to extend the border all the way along the Rishek into the mountains for one thing.
That would make sense - the lizard men would want to control the whole river valley (more defensible).
Chimpman wrote:1) Is internal Mogreth divided up into different states (associated with each of the cities)? If so, what are some of the rough boundaries?
I think it should be. The more I envision Mogreth's society, given how rigid and bureaucratic it can be, the more sense that makes to me. If the sorcerer kings established a hierarchy amongst themselves, and enforced a caste system for everyone else, it would make sense that they would look at a map and find ways to subdivide and classify it. I'll set out some internal borders asap.

Actually, thinking about it some more, they would likely have imposed a law forbidding the free movement of people (below a certain social level) between provinces, without prior authorisation. It's all about control...
Chimpman wrote:2) Are the human controlled lands considered to be a "part of Mogreth" (albeit perhaps a very wild and untamed part)? Or are they recognized as a separate nation? In other words should they be contained by their own set of thick borders, or should we extend the borders of Mogreth to cover them, and then separate that territory with thin borders?
I thought about this one a lot on the way home. I think relationship between Mogreth and its vassals depends on the geopolitical situation. In times where conflicts with the Taymorans are frequent, and Mogreth can't afford a weak western flank, it might station garrisons in those cities to keep them in line. In other times, Mogreth might withdraw its troops entirely, granting the cities a measure of autonomy - but even so, the governments of those cities would never do or say anything that wasn't approved by Isshum first. They would probably use Mogrethian currency, and their own militias would be organised to be interoperable (weapons, armour, rank structure) with Mogreth's military units, too. Any citizen of those lands who entered Mogreth was still liable to be enslaved, unless they had special permission.

So, I would encase them within Mogreth's borders, but separate them with thin solid lines. Provinces of the empire might be dotted lines.
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:15 am

I was inspired to get this done - here it is:

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc29 ... h_8mph.png

The area bordered in yellow is what I'd like added to the empire (per your comments, John).

The areas bordered in purple are provincial borders.

The areas in light red denote the puppet states.

Vs are villages

Xs are ruins

Ts are towers
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Hugin » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:38 pm

I like what you've done, Geoff. Mogreth being classified and divided both socially and politically feels right.

The one thing I'm not so sure about is currency. For some reason, metal coins don't seem right in my mind. Would it be better for Mogreth to use a mainly barter system of commerce for small scale transactions? If there was a currency, how about using bars of some kind; possibly wood bars (maybe from roots) or what about skulls from a small mammalian creature that has been ritually enchanted by the "Mogreth Mint".

Just throwing out some ideas.

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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:52 pm

Thanks Hugin!

To be honest, the currency thing is something that's bugged me for a while - how to develop a system that reflects the cultural values of the people who use it. We’ve already established that the Carnifex (and their lizard man successors) were pretty compulsive about arranging everything within reach into hierarchies, to make everything easier to control (an outgrowth, IMO, of the territorial impulses of the reptilian brain – throwing in some half-remembered psych here). I think this would extend to keeping track of money – specifically, what people do with it.

This isn’t to say that barter wouldn’t exist. Mogreth would have a very vibrant underground economy, especially because the lower classes aren’t allowed to own many select goods. This is also how a lot of the dissidents would get their support. The elite would be aware of this, and would try their hardest to stamp it out – hence, a strong policy of enforcing the use of currency would be natural, because once coinage is required, you need to work in order to earn it, which means there are more opportunities for other people to watch you (and ferret out troublemakers). If anyone could have invented a magical means of tracking transactions, the Carnifex would have done it.

The availability of money is also a tool for controlling the masses – by setting rates of pay and the prices of goods (which the sorcerer kings’ flunkies did on occasion).
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Chimpman » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:22 pm

Updated with Geoff's changes to borders and additional settlement icons. :D

More questions though ;) With additional settlements do we need more roads/trails, and if so, where?

EDIT: From a military perspective I think there would be trails to the two new towers (one from Teshos, one from Ithkesh) that would serve as supply routes for those outposts. There might be more as well, connecting some of the other settlements to the major cities.
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:30 pm

Chimpman wrote:More questions though ;) With additional settlements do we need more roads/trails, and if so, where?
Definitely - got to find a use for all those slaves, after all. I'll let you know what is connected to where by what.
Chimpman wrote:EDIT: From a military perspective I think there would be trails to the two new towers (one from Teshos, one from Ithkesh) that would serve as supply routes for those outposts. There might be more as well, connecting some of the other settlements to the major cities.
Agreed.
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:35 pm

Paved Roads:

-Continue the road to Teshos up to the last tower (so Teshos is at the end of a side road)
-Tammur Zek to Ssugath-Theliir road

Trails:

-Ithkesh to the tower in the north (through Aril)
-Ithkesh to Teshos, through the village (with a side trail from the village to the middle puppet state)
-Ithkesh to the village across the Rishek River, and from that village to the mine
-Ithkesh to the village that lies at the road junction (passing through the other two villages)
-Theliir to Ssugath, through the other two villages along the way, with another trail connecting with the third coastal village in the swamp
-Ssugath to the closest mine
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Chimpman » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:38 am

;) Done. Trails are in. Hopefully I didn't miss anything. Let me know if any of the trails or roads need to be modified.
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by happylarry » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:29 pm

This map is looking really great now!

Just on the edge of the map I still see those lovely humans in that nice river valley. Presumably they would have a city to go on the map as well?
Seer of Yhog wrote:
I never really wrote that much about them, but the humans living there are a mix of Thonian and Oltec. The Thonians came from colonies on Brun that were wiped out during the GRoF - the people trekked south to lands that were beginning to warm up. Once there, they met with local Oltec tribes (distantly related to the Inti), and a new people was created. Then Mogreth expanded into the region and began to stomp on them.

Politically, the humans are organised into city-states, which in turn are grouped into defensive alliances. They aren't completely united, which is one reason why Mogreth was able to overrun them so quickly. Most of the prominent ones have already been conquered (like Gathol, which we should put on the map as ruins - I'll show you where, John), but those that remain have managed to overcome many of their differences in the interest of survival. Some city-states are mostly Oltec in look and feel, others might be more classically Thonian, and one or two may have adopted some practices/customs of their neighbours/enemies - these would be shunned by the others, though, and probably considered to be little more than vassals of Mogreth.

The great flood that destroys Mogreth will wipe out many of these city-states, too. Some refugees, however, probably fled to higher ground, or to the west and/or south, where they would have been eventually absorbed.
so either Oltec or Thonian or mixed? or would they be good candidates for what AC9 called 'Man, isolated' - squeezed between Mogreth, the dwarves and with giants not far away. Maybe they have a special protection / ability that stops Mogreth just advancing up the river valley - maybe Oltecs with a particular affinity with some protective creature - Eagles? Rocs?

Maybe in BC2300 the ice to the NW has receeded enough to make these Oltec based (in my head anyway) people think about expanding to the South West.

Or of course they could just be hunter gatherers

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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Hugin » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:41 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:Thanks Hugin!

To be honest, the currency thing is something that's bugged me for a while - how to develop a system that reflects the cultural values of the people who use it...
Good thought process, Geoff. You've made it seem a natural progression. Thanks for explaining it.

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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:54 pm

Hugin wrote:Good thought process, Geoff. You've made it seem a natural progression. Thanks for explaining it.
Thanks! When I set out to create the setting, I wanted it to be as internally consistent and "real" as possible. To do that, I've had to try to adopt a Canifex/lizard man mindset (or at least, what I imagine it to be) when I write. Not an easy thing to do! ;)
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:35 pm

happylarry wrote:Just on the edge of the map I still see those lovely humans in that nice river valley. Presumably they would have a city to go on the map as well?
They would have a couple of towns, and a handful of villages – these would be the remaining city-states that once covered what is now western Mogreth – the ruins of Aril, Jedan, and Gathol give you an idea of how much land they used to control. Aril was an elvish city, though. The remaining city-states would control territories roughly equivalent in size to the three puppet states on Mogreth’s fringe. So, there are probably 3 or 4 city-states of notable size (5,000-10,000 people), plus a few tinier ones. Needless to say, the ones bordering Mogreth are the best organised and most militarised – even the smallest villages would be heavily fortified. All of the states would be too small to have their major settlements noted on the map.

Skirmishes on the border are frequent, but the aggressors are most often human soldiers from the puppet states. Every so often (or whenever Mogreth thinks the humans are getting uppity) a concerted campaign would be mounted – Mogreth would pour in a few divisions of its own as well. Those are life-or-death times for the locals, and without the help of the Taymorans and/or Inti the lizard men would end up ruling the whole territory, and probably start spreading further west.
happylarry wrote:so either Oltec or Thonian or mixed? or would they be good candidates for what AC9 called 'Man, isolated' - squeezed between Mogreth, the dwarves and with giants not far away. Maybe they have a special protection / ability that stops Mogreth just advancing up the river valley - maybe Oltecs with a particular affinity with some protective creature - Eagles? Rocs?
That’s a good idea. Originally I was thinking that the Taymorans, the Inti, and the Free Companies (escaped slaves who roam Mogreth’s borderlands, and the Frontier) offer support now and then, in order to maintain the humans as a diversion on Mogreth’s western flank. They act as a natural buffer for the Inti, and the Taymorans have no wish to face Mogreth’s entire military force. Either way, they could be “Man, isolated”.

Technologically, I would put them in the Iron Age or late Bronze Age – think Greek city-states or early Rome.

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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:36 pm

Chimpman wrote:;) Done. Trails are in. Hopefully I didn't miss anything. Let me know if any of the trails or roads need to be modified.
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:40 am

Haven't forgotten about the names - I have some done, but most of the place names need to mean something logical, which requires the creation of more vocabulary. This has meant looking at the existing dictionary and trying to extrapolate (and interpolate) based on what I've already done. Work is slow.

In the meantime, the swampy village closest to Isshum is Urrug'gat (frogfolk name), while the one pretty much due south, at the end of the trail from Theliir, is Burrup'ket.

The tower next to Ussur is Yath-Sstalazhat (Southtower, lit. "south shield-fortress"), the one nearest the ruins of Aril is Akha-Sstalazhat (Northtower), and the one next to Teshos is Yianazhat (Westfort).
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Chimpman » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:46 am

Cool, I'll put those in and update tonight. I was just counting hexes of my own when I read this, so I'm still in "map mode" ;)
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:09 pm

Way cool!

Minor nitpick (which can be saved for the next update) - could you move Yian-Sstalazhat to cover the trail itself? That would force people to cross underneath the tower to get through. :twisted:
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Chimpman » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:38 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:Way cool!

Minor nitpick (which can be saved for the next update) - could you move Yian-Sstalazhat to cover the trail itself? That would force people to cross underneath the tower to get through. :twisted:
Not a problem at all. Should it go on mountain or forested hill hex?
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:21 pm

Mountain hex, definitely. I envision a tall tower rooted in a narrow mountain pass - the fortifications take up the whole space, and there would be a heavily guarded gated tunnel that would lead under the tower to the other side. There would be no access to the tower from the tunnel (but there would be lots of murder holes), and the garrison can close both gates to block an invasion, or trap a force inside.

It's entirely possible that at least part of the base might be standing as of the modern Gaz era.
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Hugin » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:14 pm

Seer of Yhog wrote:Mountain hex, definitely. I envision a tall tower rooted in a narrow mountain pass - the fortifications take up the whole space, and there would be a heavily guarded gated tunnel that would lead under the tower to the other side. There would be no access to the tower from the tunnel (but there would be lots of murder holes), and the garrison can close both gates to block an invasion, or trap a force inside.

It's entirely possible that at least part of the base might be standing as of the modern Gaz era.
Oh! I like it!!!

(I wonder what spirits roam the ruins in the present age?! :twisted: )

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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:01 pm

Hugin wrote:Oh! I like it!!!

(I wonder what spirits roam the ruins in the present age?! :twisted: )
That's a really good question, and it would be a natural AC 1000-era entry point to the Mogreth campaign setting (and BC 2300 by extension). Although the heartland ended up pretty much trashed, and then built over by the Nithians, enough remained on the fringes of Mogreth to survive into the present time.

- Most of the forts in the hills and mountains are probably at least partly intact.

- Tel Akbir probably uses parts of Theliir's old sewer system, and the foundations of some of its walls. Some of the naval infrastructure (piers, etc.) might also date from that time. Some of the roads and trails on the Tel Akbir Peninsula likely follow the old Mogreth routes, and paved roads are probably from that era, too.

- Tameronikas probably has some of old Ssugath lying beneath it.

- Teshos lies undisturbed in the interior.

But getting back to your point, there are probably lots of spirits floating around those ruins. This can be expanded in the adventures section.
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Chimpman » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:32 pm

You know... we're getting to a point with this map that it might be a fun exercise to take a modern Ylaruam map and start to overlay surviving Mogrethian ruins on top of it.

Hmmm... as a general rule it might be very useful to do this with all of the BC 2300 maps. And who knows - the ideas might flow both ways, with the modern map providing us some more useful insight as to what might have been around in the past.
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Chimpman » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:36 pm

Taken from the City of Brass discussion:
Seer of Yhog wrote:All of this makes sense. There probably was a small lake at the base of the waterfall, where Lower Ussur had a small harbour (capacity for only a few mid-sized vessels - mostly freight barges). The natural lake was probably expanded a bit through slave labour.

The changes after the disaster would have caused the river to dwindle/shift, as you say, but there would have been enough of a flow for a few centuries to maintain a viable operation.
Are we missing another small tributary flowing into the Issus from the mountains and hills near Ussur? Or are we talking about a waterfall in the Issus itself? Is the lake feature large enough to draw on an 8mph map, or is it part of the city detail?
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:25 pm

Chimpman wrote:You know... we're getting to a point with this map that it might be a fun exercise to take a modern Ylaruam map and start to overlay surviving Mogrethian ruins on top of it.

Hmmm... as a general rule it might be very useful to do this with all of the BC 2300 maps. And who knows - the ideas might flow both ways, with the modern map providing us some more useful insight as to what might have been around in the past.
I think this is a great idea. I don't think it would take that long to do, either.
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Re: Outer World: Mogreth 2300 BC, 8 miles per hex

Post by Seer of Yhog » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:35 pm

Chimpman wrote:Are we missing another small tributary flowing into the Issus from the mountains and hills near Ussur? Or are we talking about a waterfall in the Issus itself? Is the lake feature large enough to draw on an 8mph map, or is it part of the city detail?
You know, I originally planned for Ussur to be on the Issus itself (well, right next to it in real life, but on the river hex on the map). But, we could add a tributary that passes through the city – this one would have dried up quickly after BC 2000. We should also consider adding some escarpment on the map (not too much).

I think the lake would be too small to show up on the map – save it for the city maps.
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